Inclusive the hard way

[mtangent]

You can't redefine the word... At first I thought you just didn't understand, but now I see it's you acting like a child that doesn't get his way.

A Chisel ground blade has one edge on one side. Inclusive means you are including the angle on both sides. If you only have one edge, there is nothing to include.

If a Chisel ground blade has a 15 degree edge bevel. The angle of the edge is 15 degrees.
If a V ground blade has an edge bevel of 15 degrees and an inclusive edge of 30 degrees. Then we can do simple math and know that both sides are 15 degrees.

It's not hard...

RX-79G : First, please Google "knife chisel grind" and study the resulting pages for a few minutes....learn what it is, see pics of such a grind as opposed to the more common V-grinds among knives and you will see it only has one side ground---purposely.

Second, the word "inclusive" implies more than one of something: i.e. for purposes here, both sides must be ground for the word to even come into play. Your knife is not ground on both sides. Therefore the word 'inclusive' is moot to begin with. Nix...zilch...zero. Forget the word for your knife.

Finally, each Emerson chisel ground blade is factory sharpened to the individual sharpener's eye and hand with no official specification of 'grind angle' set forth to him or her by the company...meaning technically each knife receives its own custom grind angle by expert sharpener people.

After puchase, an experienced sharpener person owner will match it or modify it to their own preferences and sharpness when taking it to the stones...and very easily, one of the advantages of a chisel grind on 154CM.

Hope this helps.

Perhaps you should both look up a definition yourselves. Allow me to help: http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...nxHML9W79CcGrdYHLyyx_rg&bvm=bv.87920726,d.dGY
Included angle From Latin: includere "to shut in, enclose"

Definition: The angle made by two lines with a common vertex
Included angle - the angle between two given lines that meet at a point

When two lines meet at a common point (vertex) the angle between them is called the included angle. The two lines define the angle. So for example in the figure above we could refer to the angle ∠ABC as the "included angle of BA and BC".

Or we could refer to "BA and BC and their included angle".


IMO, it is perfectly valid to talk about included angle when discussing chisel grinds.

 

[RX-79G]

Perhaps you should both look up a definition yourselves. Allow me to help: http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...nxHML9W79CcGrdYHLyyx_rg&bvm=bv.87920726,d.dGY
Included angle From Latin: includere "to shut in, enclose"

Definition: The angle made by two lines with a common vertex
Included angle - the angle between two given lines that meet at a point

When two lines meet at a common point (vertex) the angle between them is called the included angle. The two lines define the angle. So for example in the figure above we could refer to the angle ∠ABC as the "included angle of BA and BC".

Or we could refer to "BA and BC and their included angle".


IMO, it is perfectly valid to talk about included angle when discussing chisel grinds.

That's the definition I was using, but that didn't work out so well for me.

 

[EChoil]

That's all fine and I'm aware of all of it, but doesn't answer my question:

Tactical folders generally run in the 15 to 20 DPS range, meaning an inclusive cutting angle of about 30 to 40 degrees. Does Emerson's chisel grind knives use a total edge angle in the range of other tactical folders, meaning a single side grind of 30 to 40 degrees, or something else? And if it is that large, can a Lansky even go up to the that kind of angle.


If you don't like the idea of adding zero to another number to get an "inclusive angle", that's fine. Just tell me what the proper term for total edge angle is when speaking about knives in general so one doesn't have to keep making special caveats for chisels.

Example:
"15 degrees per side on a 58 Rc folder blade should be plenty durable."

"Not on a chisel grind."

"I meant 30 degrees inclusive."

"Chisels aren't inclusive."

"You know what I mean."

"I don't."

I have no idea. Sorry.

You might ax mtangent. He does pictures.

 

[EChoil]

Perhaps you should both look up a definition yourselves. Allow me to help: http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...nxHML9W79CcGrdYHLyyx_rg&bvm=bv.87920726,d.dGY
Included angle From Latin: includere "to shut in, enclose"

Definition: The angle made by two lines with a common vertex
Included angle - the angle between two given lines that meet at a point

When two lines meet at a common point (vertex) the angle between them is called the included angle. The two lines define the angle. So for example in the figure above we could refer to the angle ∠ABC as the "included angle of BA and BC".

Or we could refer to "BA and BC and their included angle"........IMO, it is perfectly valid to talk about included angle when discussing chisel grinds.

You're in the postpositive, bordering on the clitic regarding gerund root usage now. My word was "inclusive." Don't know about your vertex but certainly feel I'm in a vortex now. I'll leave the rest to you guys.

 

[DAVE_M]

Since these are only beveled on one side, am I correct in thinking that a 30 or 40 degree inclusive edge means 30 or 40 degrees just on the one side? Will the Lansky or other controlled angle sharpener even do that?

I'm just sayin... You keep sticking to your guns that I didn't answer your question. I answered your first question, but didn't bother with your second question, because you would know the answer if you had a Lansky setup.

In our discussion, we are not speaking of an included angle. We are speaking of an inclusive angle, which describes the sharpening angle of two sides of a blade. You say same thing, I say go eat a banana.

 

[mtangent]

I'm just sayin... You keep sticking to your guns that I didn't answer your question. I answered your first question, but didn't bother with your second question, because you would know the answer if you had a Lansky setup.

In our discussion, we are not speaking of an included angle. We are speaking of an inclusive angle, which describes the sharpening angle of two sides of a blade. You say same thing, I say go eat a banana.

Why don't you post a reference to a definition of "inclusive angle"? Good luck finding one.
In any case, we are talking about the angle between 2 lines, that intersect.

 

[DAVE_M]

Why don't you post a reference to a definition of "inclusive angle"? Good luck finding one.
In any case, we are talking about the angle between 2 lines, that intersect.

You're a little late to board the fail boat.

 

[mtangent]

You're a little late to board the fail boat.

Future readers will make their own judgement on that score. At least the OP has been given his answer. Thanks to Dalefuller.

 

[jbmonkey]

Does anyone have the answer to the question asked, or are y'all going to keep insulting each other over the use of a term innocently used?

Most of my emersons came with a microbevel on the other side of the chisel edge. It could be counted sort of as two edges......i think?regardless there is still a question floating out there unanswered for a lansky owner, in the know.

 

[RX-79G]

From Emerson's web site: "I frequently get emails and phone calls about using a sharpening tool, fixture, or gadget to sharpen an Emerson knife. The first question that is always asked is this, “What is the angle on the edge of an Emerson Knife?” Well I’m going to be real frank with you. I don’t know. I think it is somewhere between 25 degrees and 35 degrees."

There's a whole Sharpening section on the web site with pics.

So I used Emerson's search feature, since there is no link I could find to the FAQ.

http://emersonknives.com/ek_faq/sharpening-emerson-knife-using-fixture/

I frequently get emails and phone calls about using a sharpening tool, fixture, or gadget to sharpen an Emerson knife. The first question that is always asked is this, “What is the angle on the edge of an Emerson Knife?” Well I’m going to be real frank with you. I don’t know. I think it is somewhere between 25 degrees and 35 degrees. All of our knives are sharpened by hand and I don’t pay attention to the exact angle. Now, there are physicists, engineers, and scientists out there that will argue till they’re blue in the face about the ultimate degree of the edge angle. I always ask them two simple questions, “What’s the edge angle on a razor blade? They’re pretty sharp,” and then I follow with, “What’s the edge angle on a paper cutter? They’re pretty sharp too.” But you see, the angle is way different on both of those two items. So, my philosophy has always been this. Either a knife is sharp or it isn’t, and I don’t need to be a theoretical physicist to figure that out. I’ve sharpened knives with a rock, a piece of pipe, sand paper wrapped around a stick, a piece of brick, and a piece of broken glass. Do you think I knew what angle I was using?

Now be aware that as Matthew Quigley said in the movie, Quigley Down Under, in the famous duel scene with six guns, he remarked, “I said I never had much use for one. Never said I didn’t know how to use it.”

When it comes to those sharpening gadgets, “I said I never had much use for one. Never said I didn’t know how to use it.” I do know how to use those sharpening tools and I’ve never had any problem using one. I just never had much use for one.

But for those of you who do use them I will offer this advice. If you are worried about the angle to set your fixture to, just blacken the edge of the knife with some black magic marker and set your fixture to remove the black marker all the way to the edge. You then have the correct angle. Will it be the same on your other Emerson Knives? I don’t know. Different models and blade shapes are sharpened slightly different from each other, so there would never be a standard angle for Emerson Knives in any case. All I know is that when they leave our shop they are sharp, real sharp, and I know that if we can do it, you can too. Just don’t over complicate the process.

Here are the three blade profiles Emerson uses, from their site:

Here's a link to a Lansky sharpener:
http://lansky.com/index.php/products/professional-system/

The listed angles for all their sharpeners of this type are 17, 20, 25 and 30 degrees. One might surmise that Emerson's production chisel grind might be closer to the 35 degree end of the spectrum given the obvious angle difference compared to the custom chisel. So a Lansky user who wisely starts in with the 30 degree fixture and follows Emerson's fixture advise may get all that marker ground off by removing around 5 degrees of bevel. Of course, it could be much more or much less, given the hand ground edges. At worse, a Lansky user might transform their Production Chisel into a Custom zero grind by the time they get through.

 

[BenchCo Spydermade]

You can't redefine the word... At first I thought you just didn't understand, but now I see it's you acting like a child that doesn't get his way.

A Chisel ground blade has one edge on one side. Inclusive means you are including the angle on both sides. If you only have one edge, there is nothing to include.

If a Chisel ground blade has a 15 degree edge bevel. The angle of the edge is 15 degrees.
If a V ground blade has an edge bevel of 15 degrees and an inclusive edge of 30 degrees. Then we can do simple math and know that both sides are 15 degrees.

It's not hard...

I am getting f'ing sick of the name calling on this site lately. It isn't necessary, it is against the rules, and makes discussion pointless.


If you want to get into definitions, you can read what an "edge" is - the end or limit of a plane, surface or object. "Single edged" knives don't have two edges. All knives have an edge, which is formed when two planes converge. That convergence has an angle, but because of the way we sharpen knives, we commonly talk about the angle of each side of the edge separately. But there aren't two edges, just two edge angles defined only by an imaginary plane running through the center of the blade.

The only important angle is the one that actually forms the edge and cuts things. If you don't like calling that edge angle "inclusive", that's fine, but the only reason we use the term inclusive is because it has become so common to confuse sharpening angle with the ACTUAL cutting angle - formed by the intersection of two planes.

What do you want to call the edge formed by the intersection of two planes, so you, me and everyone else can talk about a 20 degree per side, 15 degree on one side and 25 on the other side or a 40 on one side and 0 on the other side and know that we are talking about the exact same cutting edge???

Well I'm w RX in this one. Inclusive is not exclusive to v grinds.
A chisel grind has one side that is 15* and one that is 0* say, then the inclusive angle would be 15*. A bit redundant, but easily understandable.

 

[BenchCo Spydermade]

15+0 is NOT undefined. It is 15

 

[asdf12345]

As long as we're talking about "inclusive" angles... on a V ground blade with a chisel bevel is it useful to measure the "inclusive" angle whereas the unbeveled (zero) side is calculated as whatever degrees the main bevels is ground to? For example if the flat grind itself is 30 degrees on both sides and the bevel is 15 degrees, should that be 30 degrees + 15 degrees to account for the fact that the unbeveled side is still ground at an angle despite not possessing a bevel itself?

I can see why the use of "inclusive" doesn't make sense on a true zero chisel grind with a side that is completely flat.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

I wouldn't mind if you argued and came to an understanding. But this totally trashed the original topic and degenerated into a long, drawn out, personal insult match. So have fun and do it here, away from serious posters.

 

[Shotgun]

You truly are trying to argue for the sake of arguing. Judging by your past posts, you seem to do that often.

People in glass houses my friend. The only one arguing for the sake of it seems to be you.

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

About the angle, I'm using lansky system, never had any problems determining the angle, on my chisel grind CQC7 I believe it's 20.
The "inclusive" argument is nonsense IMHO, because when we're talking about bevel sharpening, inclusive usually is used in regard of the center line going in the middle of the cross section of the blade, so if Emerson's chisel grind have one flat, vertical side, it's parallel to the center line of the blade, therefore it could be considered to be the center line and if the bevel is put on one side of it, I guess it's non-inclusive. You can add 0 of course, but this doesn't make sense unless we are talking math and we are not doing it, 0 bevel = non-existing bevel... I don't know, it's all English to me...

...I rely on the "assistance" of the ...POCEH KOCEB's...

I'm afraid I can't provide the assistance you really need...

 

[EricV]

Some of the arguments that pop up here are really mind melting.

Inclusive angle doesn't include the two planes for the edge bevel? Can't add zero to a number? Wow and the guy who takes the time to post a picture of the scenario is the one failing here? You can't make this stuff up.

Also my lansky only went to 30, and as expected it did knock the shoulder down on my A100 significantly so at least on that knife EKI put about a 40* edge bevel on it before buffing the opposing side.

FYI A100s have a V-Grind as a primary grind (saber grind technically) which does muddy the answer a bit.

 

[B34NS]

Don't forget that japanese knives use single grinds all the time, I'd hesitate to call them "chisels" though. Very slicy, some leaning at ratio (90:10 and 100:0 for single) for some sushi knives rather than an inclusive angle used with most western knives.

 

[DAVE_M]

At one point in time, this thread was about Emerson quality control titled 'Learning the Hard Way'. Somehow it is no longer.

Edit - I see the mod changed it in the post above.

The entire argument had nothing to with an Emerson, knife edges, or diagrams. With that, I'm calling it quits. I don't enjoy arguing, I enjoy learning, and there is nothing to learn here.

People in glass houses my friend. The only one arguing for the sake of it seems to be you.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1269881-Tantos/page4

 

[Esav Benyamin]

DAVE_M, 'Learning the Hard Way' is still where it always was. I just removed the 'Inclusive' posts and moved them all here.

Thread drift happens, I don't blame people for it. But the threads having been split, both conversations can continue independently -- no longer inclusive of each other.