INFI or CPM 3V....which is better?

[Agent Iron]

I am glad for the resurection! As long as the content is good, hey, I say bring it. Some of these steels will show their strength over time with use, I want more posts to the thread!

 

[elkins45]

I'll see your Thread Necromancer and raise you a Zombie Thread!

But while we're on the subject....just what the heck is transvertion wave tempering that Scrapyard refers to?

 

[Krieger]

Those are great!

 

[Steelhed]

Reviving an old thread is not inherently evil. Good information has no expiration date, and adding more to it only makes it better in my opinion.

 

[theamazingdrew]

Whoa Necro Post! Did you see how old this thread was before posting? I'm not trying to give you a hard time, by the way. I appreciate the info regardless of the timeline



The Lil' Canadian: http://www.barkriverknives.net/2009/Lil_Canadian_3v.html

LOL I just realized what I did;

It started as a search to see which people liked more, and I got so caught up in the thread I totally forgot! wow do I feel dumb............

 

[theamazingdrew]

What BRK&T knife is made of 3V?? Seriously, I'd like to know!

Stainz

Also the new Liten bror (little brother in swedish) which arrived here yesterday.....................pics soon

 

[Ionbond]

Analysis of knife INFI Material

1. Objective

1.1 To analyze the knife provided for material composition and metallurgical characteristics.

2. Background

2.1 provided CAMSS of NC A&T State University a knife for material investigation. The knife had exceptional performance and it was desired to know the possible reasons for the same.

3.1 The material investigation was conducted in the following steps:

· Chemical composition using X-ray analysis
· Microstructural investigations using optical microscopy
· Hardness measurements using digital micro hardness tester
· Visual observations

4. Results

4.1 Visual observations

Visual observations showed that the knife has a complex shape and is possibly air hardened. It is not machined all over as the oxide scales from high temperature are still seen.

4.2 Chemical composition

X-ray analysis using Hitachi SEM showed the elemental composition as below.


Element Weight % Atomic%
Carbon C 0.64----------- 2.87
Silicon Si 0.63----------- 1.21
Chromium Cr 8.12----------- 8.45
Molybdenum Mo 0.85----------- 0.48
Vanadium 0.33----------- 0.35
Iron Fe 89.43---------- 86.64

I have the complete report with SEM Photo's if Jerry wants to see the entire report, email me..

Darrell

 

[Krieger]

It started as a search to see which people liked more, and I got so caught up in the thread I totally forgot!

That's happened to me too .

 

[Steelhed]

Ionbond - You forgot nitrogen. INFI is suppose to have some nitrogen. Also, INFI is not just the material composition. The heat treatment is a big part of it. In other words, it's not just spoon, but how you stir it that matters.

 

[Josh K]

Ionbond - You forgot nitrogen. INFI is suppose to have some nitrogen. Also, INFI is not just the material composition. The heat treatment is a big part of it. In other words, it's not just spoon, but how you stir it that matters.

I think that he would have mentioned it if he found it. I remember it's supposed to have some in it, but who really knows?

 

[Joshua J.]

Ionbond - You forgot nitrogen. INFI is suppose to have some nitrogen. Also, INFI is not just the material composition. The heat treatment is a big part of it. In other words, it's not just spoon, but how you stir it that matters.

Is that The Tick?

IIRC Jerry once said in one of the threads buried somewhere around here that the Nitrogen content has a lot to do with the properties of INFI, and not so much the content itself but how it's added. You can also find the alloy chart for INFI if you dig around enough.
I don't really care what steel Busse uses, they'll do it better than anyone else. As far as I'm concerned the price tag of a Busse has more to do with the heat treat and quality control than the steel.

Regardless, if you see a knife that you like in INFI, jump on it! These things don't come around very often.

 

[Ramm9]

A couple of old posts about Infi and heat treating....

......................As for INFI and temperature extremes, it is amazing. INFI is tempered at nearly 950 degrees. It does not begin to lose any significant hardness until it is held above 1050 degrees for a considerable amount of time. I have to believe that it would need to be extremely mishandled in order to do any noticeable damage.

Most of the simpler high carbon steels (of which INFI is NOT a member) can be drawn down in temper in a matter of seconds if the temperature hits above 500 - 800 degrees. Along the thin edge of a knife, a buffer or dremel can produce this level of heat and can cause serious damage if not executed by a professional. Always check the grade of steel and heat-treat specs. before assassinating it with the dremel tool Uncle Leo gave you for Christmas. Always keep the steel cool to the touch and you should be fine.

As far as INFI is concerned, care for and feed it like a friend. If the blade does get warm pour beer over it to cool it down. Stories out of Africa indicate that “Beer Tempering” only increases the performance of the steel. Is this true? I question nothing I hear from our friends in Africa.

Jerry Busse

Busse has been doing cryo since the early 1980's. Back then it was a very primitive process involving an old cooler, dry ice and about a gallon of acetone. Process: pack the blades in dry ice, pour the acetone over the ice to speed the evaporation process, and hit somewhere around the -190 degree mark. Do a normalizing temper (approx. 350 - 450) and voila! Prehistoric Cryo!

In the late eighties we began the employment of a deep cryo treatment (-300/320 degrees) which was done in a dry, controlled, atmosphere. This process allows us to take our blades down to temp. over the course of 10 hours hold them at temp. (-300 degrees) for approx 50 hours, and then bring them back up to room temp. over the course of the next 10 hours at which point they receive 3 more, individualized, oven tempers. This is the same process that we employ to this day.

Some makers are out there just plunging their blades into liquid nitrogen which can shock the steel so dramatically that microscopic cracks and fissures can form that could cause massive blade failure in the field under heavy and/or light use. That is why it is crucial that the blades be cooled slowly and brought back to room temperature slowly and then normalized with a few oven tempers for stress relief.

Of course there are also some makers that I know of who claim to employ cryogenics because they stick their knives in the freezer over night. Scary! Alway ask the maker to give as much detail of his cryo process as possible.

Knowledge is power! Arm yourself!

Yours in Nuclear Cryogenics,

Jerry Busse

 

[Ionbond]

I think that he would have mentioned it if he found it. I remember it's supposed to have some in it, but who really knows?

Josh,

There was no Nitrogen found during the testing.. I have all the Micro-Photograps of the Heat Treated Material at 1000X and 2000X it does show a very Dense Grain Size..

This testing was done about 4-5 years ago, so maybe INFI has Nitrogen now..

Darrell

 

[Gator97]

Interesting data...

X-ray analysis using Hitachi SEM showed the elemental composition as below.

Element Weight % Atomic%
Carbon C 0.64----------- 2.87
Silicon Si 0.63----------- 1.21
Chromium Cr 8.12----------- 8.45
Molybdenum Mo 0.85----------- 0.48
Vanadium 0.33----------- 0.35
Iron Fe 89.43---------- 86.64

In the knife steel chart I have the following INFI composition.

Which, is the result of the tests (according to the multiple sources on the net) done in Germany. Sadly I have no precise info who did test and how.
That data differs from yours and contains N - 0.11% which is consistent with what Jerry said and what was a rumor long before that alleged Germany test was done.

More or less everything matches, although variance is in some cases 0.30-0.30% magnitude. E.g. You have C as 0.64, they do 0.50, Mo 0.85% for you, 1.30 for them, etc..

Is there a way N was somehow overlooked in your test?
I'm not trying to attack your data, I just want more correct composition for the chart


I remember, there was a thread back in the day, people were guessing ingredients in INFI and Rob Simonich's guess was Nitrogen, which Jerry confirmed later.

 

[hardheart]

I thought at least one of the methods of analysis could not detect nitrogen, is that why?

 

[Gator97]

Well, I am not qualified to determine what were the methods exactly and what could they detect... and Ionbod seems to be convinced it'd be found if it was there, OTOH Germans did detect it...

 

[DennisStrickland]

to STAINZ bark river little canadian & ferhman use 3v . ferhman puts it in at 57 rr. i consulted alloy charts for 3v & could'nt figure how it made such great blades. 3v only has .8 % carbon, no tungsten but 2.75 vanadium. also duratech 20v has 1.9 carbon & 4.0 vanadium. looking at 3v doe'st make sense for edge durability since van. & carbon give the high r.r. carbides. where are you going to get enough carbon for all that van.? anyway i have the infi & 3v & will order the S.O.G. team leader in duratech 20v . will try to test on cardboard & give results. may be awhile since this test requires same cardboard & lots of energy. i know many do'nt consider this empirical but works for me. funny thing but alloy charts do'nt always predict how certain compositions will perform in real life. busse may be using the heat treat patented in 30s. i think angel sword OR another amer. katana producer use this process to make blades almost unbreakable & cut forever . it involves leaving metal at certain temps. for extremely long time.steel techies please do'nt ask me a bunch of questions since my tech. knowledge is small.

 

[Ken44]

Will anyone ever take the Blade show challange, and TRY to duplicate what Jerry was able to do with INFI ???


http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136073&highlight=rope+cutting

 

[Ionbond]

Interesting data...


In the knife steel chart I have the following INFI composition.

Which, is the result of the tests (according to the multiple sources on the net) done in Germany. Sadly I have no precise info who did test and how.
That data differs from yours and contains N - 0.11% which is consistent with what Jerry said and what was a rumor long before that alleged Germany test was done.

More or less everything matches, although variance is in some cases 0.30-0.30% magnitude. E.g. You have C as 0.64, they do 0.50, Mo 0.85% for you, 1.30 for them, etc..

Is there a way N was somehow overlooked in your test?
I'm not trying to attack your data, I just want more correct composition for the chart


I remember, there was a thread back in the day, people were guessing ingredients in INFI and Rob Simonich's guess was Nitrogen, which Jerry confirmed later.

As said before, this report was done a few years back, and Rob Simonich as a friend of mine that sent me the blade that was used..

The Nitrogen should have shown up in the scan if it were present. If Jerry want to post the entire report with pictures and data found during this test, I will forward him a copy..

All the testing was completed at NC A&T State University in Greensboro North Carolina..

Ionbond or our parent company Bodycote can provide information again if someone wants to send a piece of INFI or give me there knife to cut up...

This grade of material is very similar modified A series or S series Air Hardening Material..

I agree that Jerry has found a Great Way of Heat Treating for best results on a knife..

 

[Gator97]

Puzzling. Ionbond, do you mind if I include your alternate composition and reference to you and the test place in the notes section for the INFI steel in Knife Steel Chart?