INFI or CPM 3V....which is better?

[hardheart]

Angel sword patented a process to get carbide banding, for a wootz like appearance. makers have done it for years on accident, and other industry take steps to actively avoid it.

 

[Ionbond]

Gator,

I have no problem with you posting it, if you email be I can send you the entire report with SEM's Micro Photographs and entire summary..

Darrell.lewis@ionobnd.com

 

[Gator97]

Great, I'll email you once i get home...

 

[Ionbond]

My Email is

Darrell.lewis@ionbond.com

TYPO...

 

[The Mastiff]

People always seem to start yelling "troll" anytime someone brings it up but to me it looks like A8 Modified was the base starting point from which Infi was developed. It's really pretty similar as steels go, with a few minor changes.

Whatever it began as, it's sure being treated to get the most out of it for knives designed to chop, and stand up to stuff that most knives would never attempt.

Yet anything that's sold for so much money, is at the center of such passion, and has a made up name isn't really for me. I'm sure I'd love some of the Busse knives from the line though.

I do know I love 3V and have knives from 2 different makers using it. 3V supposedly had it's beginnings in another of my old favorites, Vascowear.

The Busse knives I've seen were very high quality. They are just not my thing , size, weight, or price. I'd guess, but have no experience obviously that 3 V would make a better small skinner, or folding knife. I would love to try some of the other steels like A8 modified, F8, etc. There are a lot out there that have potential for knives.

 

[Outdoors Fanatic]

LOL!

It is a great thread, though.

 

[cybrok]

Well, I am not qualified to determine what were the methods exactly and what could they detect... and Ionbod seems to be convinced it'd be found if it was there, OTOH Germans did detect it...

I emailed him to take a look at that report. I'm curious about the SEM images. Since I did this all summer I might be able to see something.

A surface XRD could see some nitrogen, but the detection limit is 5% Maybe a XPS, but the test is pricy.

 

[Jason B.]

^ is that a grave yard troll I smell.

 

[Amoeboid]

I have yet to see a rusted INFI blade. So, corrosion resistance is top notch with INFI as well!

believe me it, it happens! spill some Coca Cola on a Busse, and let it sit!
Still... Jerry says it's as about as resistant as D2 steel. I think it's better.

 

[csabacanada]

I HAVE USED CPM 3V A LOT [FEHRMAN KNIVES ,VARIOUS MODELS] AND I TRIED MANY INFI BLADES.HERE ARE WHAT I NOTICED :
-EDGE HOLDING -CPM 3V HOLDS MUCH BETTER THAN INFI.[THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT INFI DOES NOT HOLD A GOOD EDGE ,GIVE IT A CONVEX ,HIGHLY POLISHED EDGE ANT IT WILL HOLD IT ALMOST AS LONG AS A2]
-SHARPENING-INFI IS THE WINNER ,IT IS VERY EASY TO SHARPEN .CPM 3V TAKES A LOT MORE TIME TO SHARPEN.
-TOUGHNESS -I COULD NOT NOTICE ANY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO STEELS.BOTH ARE VERY TOUGH STEELS .WE HAVE SEEN MANY PICTURES OF HOW TOUGH THE INFI IS AND I USED MY FEHRMANS PRETTY HARD ,AND NO MATTER WHAT I DID I COULD NOT DAMAGE IT.I MEAN CHOPPING FROZEN BONE AND WOOD .IF YOU WANT TO SEE HOW TOUGH CPM 3V IS GO TO RON HOOD'S WEBSITE ,HE HAS SOME PICTURES OF FEHRMANS.I HAVE HAD SOM INFI THAT CHIPED AND ROLLED BUT THAT WAS VERY MINOR AND I THINK IT WAS BECAUSE I HAD HAD THINNED THE EDGE TOO MUCH ,GIVE INFI A NOT TOO THIN ,NOT TOO THICK ,HIGHLY POLISHED CONVEX EDGE AND IT WILL BE VERY TOUGH.
-Corrosion resistant- CPM 3V HAS BETTER CORROSION RESISTANCE.IF YOU DON'T BELIVE IT JUST TAKE A SATIN FINISHED CPM 3V AND A SATIN FINISHED INFI CUT UP A ONION AND LEAVE THE WITH THE JUICE ON FOR ON HOUR.INFI WILL FORM PATINA AND CPM 3V WON'T .THERE IS A VIDEO ON YOUTUBE COMPARING THE TWO STEELS CORROSION RESISTANCE.
SO WITCH ONE IS BETTER -I DON'T THINK THERE IS A WINNER.BOTH ARE EXCELLENT STEELS ,IT DEPENDS ON YOUR PREFERENCES.FOR ME I LIKE INFI BETTER BUT JUST BECAUSE I SUCK AT SHARPENING.THANKS

 

[bearcut]

Analysis of knife INFI Material

1. Objective

1.1 To analyze the knife provided for material composition and metallurgical characteristics.

2. Background

2.1 provided CAMSS of NC A&T State University a knife for material investigation. The knife had exceptional performance and it was desired to know the possible reasons for the same.

3.1 The material investigation was conducted in the following steps:

· Chemical composition using X-ray analysis
· Microstructural investigations using optical microscopy
· Hardness measurements using digital micro hardness tester
· Visual observations

4. Results

4.1 Visual observations

Visual observations showed that the knife has a complex shape and is possibly air hardened. It is not machined all over as the oxide scales from high temperature are still seen.

4.2 Chemical composition

X-ray analysis using Hitachi SEM showed the elemental composition as below.


Element Weight % Atomic%
Carbon C 0.64----------- 2.87
Silicon Si 0.63----------- 1.21
Chromium Cr 8.12----------- 8.45
Molybdenum Mo 0.85----------- 0.48
Vanadium 0.33----------- 0.35
Iron Fe 89.43---------- 86.64

I have the complete report with SEM Photo's if Jerry wants to see the entire report, email me..

Darrell

Thank you for posting these results.

Much more informative explanation than, "It's a secret"

BTW, Fehrmans heat treat process takes 72 hours. 40 is no big deal.

 

[shunsui]

Analysis of knife INFI Material

2.1 provided CAMSS of NC A&T State University a knife for material investigation.

4.1 Visual observations

Visual observations showed that the knife has a complex shape and is possibly air hardened. It is not machined all over as the oxide scales from high temperature are still seen.

Sounds like an interesting report. I was wondering how the samples are prepared for analysis. I had a humorous image of them analyzing the famous decarb layer based on the results.

 

[cybrok]

Sounds like an interesting report. I was wondering how the samples are prepared for analysis. I had a humorous image of them analyzing the famous decarb layer based on the results.

My guess would be epoxy based resin, nital quench.

 

[Tiny86]

Both are good steals.
For me INFI is easier to sharpen. For that fact I would go with INFI in case you ever have to field sharpen.

 

[cotdt]

People always seem to start yelling "troll" anytime someone brings it up but to me it looks like A8 Modified was the base starting point from which Infi was developed. It's really pretty similar as steels go, with a few minor changes.

Whatever it began as, it's sure being treated to get the most out of it for knives designed to chop, and stand up to stuff that most knives would never attempt.

Yet anything that's sold for so much money, is at the center of such passion, and has a made up name isn't really for me. I'm sure I'd love some of the Busse knives from the line though.

I do know I love 3V and have knives from 2 different makers using it. 3V supposedly had it's beginnings in another of my old favorites, Vascowear.

The Busse knives I've seen were very high quality. They are just not my thing , size, weight, or price. I'd guess, but have no experience obviously that 3 V would make a better small skinner, or folding knife. I would love to try some of the other steels like A8 modified, F8, etc. There are a lot out there that have potential for knives.

Are there 2 different INFI steels being used? This one is different from the other INFI composition that I've seen. The other INFI composition does look like A8Mod with a bit of nitrogen added.

 

[The Mastiff]

Are there 2 different INFI steels being used? This one is different from the other INFI composition that I've seen. The other INFI composition does look like A8Mod with a bit of nitrogen added.

I have seen two different formulas, both of which were from people who swore they knew. Me? I swear I don't know, and everything I say is just a guess.

I'm not the first, or only one to come up with A8 ( mod) as the starting point from which Infi was developed. I probably won't be the last either. That's just the way it goes with proprietary steels from past experience. I recall the guessing on Carbon V before Camillus came out and went under. There was lots of denials about that.

"R2" is another one that has people guessing. ( Mr Itou, and this is what is posted over at "japanese XXXXXX XXXXXX.com"

The reputation and demand were terrific! We had so many good words from the users for the extremely sharp cutting and edge retention ability. The secret of this is the finest powdered steel R2 and the forging process. He said he was first using Hitachi Blue steel (Aogami), from which he could obtain a good cutting, but it was rusty. He has then used R1 from Kobe Steel, but it was brittle. Finally, he worked with Kobe Steel to develop new formula, R2 that has improved and exceeded over R1 steels. He also found his special forging process makes it sharper and longer edge retention. Another secret is he uses a large water stone wheel with slow rotating to grind his blades, unlike the normal belt sander grinding. This will prevent over-heating the blade to ruin the proper hardness and its chemical characters.

I have one of the R2 knives. It takes a wicked edge, but pits pretty badly if not looked after. I'd guess a mild HSS, but not up to even M2/M4 carbide levels or RC's. It's a pretty fragile knife the way it's ground, and believe it or not I have to take care putting it back in the sheath so as not to snap the point off. It slices very well, and suspect there is some Tungsten in the steel.

Sorry to get that far off target. Joe

 

[wnease]

Are there 2 different INFI steels being used? This one is different from the other INFI composition that I've seen. The other INFI composition does look like A8Mod with a bit of nitrogen added.

yeah we have some discrepancies in the makeup showing up online... i saw one with less carbon, which put it very close to the particular A8 mod I use, but with significant nickel, and more cobalt (my A8 came with cobalt... it doesn't always)

 

[skyknife]

Hello wnease

Did your a8 (mod ?) come with cobalt instead of silicon or did it have both elements? How much cobalt did it have?

Thanks

 

[gundude73]

this thread has been dug up about 4-5 times...

 

[mnyshrpknvs]

Thanks for all the info. I figured INFI would be the better of the two. Basically, I want best material possible that offers the best combination of blade performance. A little corrosion resistance would be nice, but tough blade with good edge retention is more of a priority.

I have 3 customs made from 3V. They get used hard and I haven't had any issues. Plus, I got them the way I wanted them made and in a very short time I may add. Tito(Coty) on the forums make a fantastic blade an uses 3V,60V,90V and also forges 1095 and 51200. I have two knive from him. When you get to these levels of materials, it can be like splitting hairs as far as differences go.