Initial impressions of Kershaw Cyclone

I can't wait to try a Leek once they switch over to 13C26, as I think this steel in a smaller knife like that will be a nice combination.

The current Leeks with 440A take a very nice edge, too.

Btw a thumbstud has nothing to do with removing a burr, at least for me.

If the thumbstud isn't getting in the way, you're either sharpening and deburring with the edge not parallel to the hone (good) or an angle high enough to clear the thumbstud (opposite of good).

The interesting thing about this is I am curious will this force an evaluation of the current perspective of AUS4/6 as low end steels. These are the same class as 13C26. You can't rave about one and critize the other.

Sure you can and I'd be disappointed if you didn't! We nail Kershaw to the wall for not using heat-treats with multiple normalizations and tempers to obtain RC65 13C26 on a regular basis, yet we give a free pass to our friends in Seki City, Japan and Taipei Taiwan for using heat-treats which make their AUS-6, AUS-6A, and AUS-6M softer than Kershaw's previous and current heat-treats of 13C26. Worse than not hardening AUS-6 to RC65 is that many places have switched to steels with higher levels of carbon and overall carbide volume and are still running the steels softer than Kershaw's 13C26 and we're still giving them a free pass. So I do think it's possible to be all gaa-gaa over Bark River's use of 12C27 or Kershaw's use of 13C26 while still being put off by CRKT's AUS-4 offerings.
 
Sure you can and I'd be disappointed if you didn't! We nail Kershaw to the wall for not using heat-treats with multiple normalizations and tempers to obtain RC65 13C26 on a regular basis, yet we give a free pass to our friends in Seki City, Japan and Taipei Taiwan for using heat-treats which make their AUS-6, AUS-6A, and AUS-6M softer than Kershaw's previous and current heat-treats of 13C26. Worse than not hardening AUS-6 to RC65 is that many places have switched to steels with higher levels of carbon and overall carbide volume and are still running the steels softer than Kershaw's 13C26 and we're still giving them a free pass. So I do think it's possible to be all gaa-gaa over Bark River's use of 12C27 or Kershaw's use of 13C26 while still being put off by CRKT's AUS-4 offerings.
Cliff is AGAIN just trying to bring us down to a level HE FEELS is unflattering (sorry, just wanted to see how it feels to capitalize a couple words in a sentence (made me feel superior btw)).

This all has become so redundant that it is barely worth taking the time to read anymore.
 
db, from Thom's post I see you think I consider the thumbstud an impediment to deburring. I only mentioned the thumbstud because it limits the angle you can reprofile to to around 12 per side, it had nothing to do with not being able to form a clean edge. Since my S30V Manix handles 10 per side with a 15 per side microbevel, I would like to try 13C26 and it's high edge stability at less than 10 per side and play with the microbevel to see what works well. I also think the steels properties lend itself to high polish, so that is how I intend to use it. Others can do whatever they want with it, if you want to cut metal or beat the hell out of it by all means leave it at the stock profile. I like the better edge retention and cutting ability of thinner, more acute edges, but that's just me. As I said, it only took a few minutes to change the angle to 12 per side, so getting it thinner will go pretty quickly also.

Mike
 
Mike, want something fairly cool to play with. I have a CPM-D2 blade. It would be interesting to see it compared to 13C26, this is pretty much the ultimate low/high carbide comparison. Don't care what you do, who you loan the blades to and where or what you say about it.

...AUS-6, AUS-6A, and AUS-6M softer than Kershaw's previous and current heat-treats of 13C26.

These would be expected to be slightly softer, akin to 12C27M, AUS-4 is about 56/57 HRC at maximum and usually comes in 1-2 HRC points softer. Buck runs 420HC very hard for its level, harder in comparison than Kershaw runs 13C26. The higher carbide steels also do have their advantages if you like to use duller knives and/or like really coarse edges and/or tactical style edges.

I would like to see Spyderco push harder on their AUS blades, similar to Benchmade is doing on AUS-8 which they are running at 60 HRC. Note since AUS-8 is above the 13C26 tieline it has an inherently LOWER hardness, so their heat treat is obviously more capable in that regard as they are getting more out of the steel.

The problem with use of steels like AUS-4 is that they are being used in beater knives because of the rep of the steel so it doesn't make a lot of sense money wise to max out the steel when you have the misinformation which exists currently in regards to the steel. Even then though they are no where near as far under optimal as 13C26 at 58-60.

But again you are dealing with preconception here rather than fact. Try for example to sell a decent tactical knife out of 420J2. But it is actually a decent steel for that (just like comparing S7 to D2), much more so than what is being used but good luck trying to sell that.

And how should the average Joe judge their knife and edge ...

Cosidering the initial edge is on a knife ONCE in its lifetime it seems obvious that it is fairly insignificant in terms of the functionality unless the knife is intended to never be sharpened such as disposable razor blades. This would be like judging a car poorly because it came with an empty tank of gas. No tradesmen I have ever seen judges cutting tools so, unless as noted they are disposable.

The big problem is the misinformation that initial sharpness is some sign of quality. As has been noted for many years, even the cheapest blades can get very sharp and will cut very well when properly adjusted edge angle wise. So having a very sharp edge means nothing aside from the person who sharpened it knew what they were doing and Spyderco does this beyond the custom level on a production scale.

In fact as Swaim showed long ago, such an optomized knife (very cheap) will not only initially out cut, but will out LAST a knife with a much less optimal edge grind even with a much "better" steel on the other knife. This can be a very large difference, many times to one and thus easily swamp out differences in steels.

Curiously, some of the best cutting profiles I have seen on folders have been on really cheap ones. I mean the ones with plastic handles with animals on them. The edges are often 0.005-0.010" thick, 15 degrees or less per side. Which makes a farce out of comments that this is difficult to achieve. These will cut very well, easily many times to one over sillyness at 0.030"/20+ degrees.

This is one of the best kept knife "secrets" even though Swaim made it public knowledge about ten years ago. Obviously of course, makers/manufacturers are not overly promotional in this regard. Hey, if you take this $2 knife and regrind it optimally for YOUR use, it will easily cut better intiially and the edge will last longer than this $50 knife we sell with the stock edge.

-Cliff
 
AUS-4 is about 56/57 HRC at maximum and usually comes in 1-2 HRC points softer.

If the low number AUS steels can only get that hard, they should be behind 13C26 even at the non-optimal 60 HRC right? This is assuming that all things about the grinding of the blade are equal.

As I see it 13C26 has a lot more potential than the low number AUS steels. As well as not having to fight the bad reputation like you said.
 
Mike, want something fairly cool to play with. I have a CPM-D2 blade. It would be interesting to see it compared to 13C26, this is pretty much the ultimate low/high carbide comparison. Don't care what you do, who you loan the blades to and where or what you say about it.
-Cliff

I would love to try it! Like you said, talk about extreme opposites, that would be VERY interesting and enlightening.

Mike
 
If the low number AUS steels can only get that hard, they should be behind 13C26 even at the non-optimal 60 HRC right?

Not exactly. It depends on how the lower hardness was achieved. If you have the optimal structure at the lower hardness you could get better edge stability, higher corrosion resistance and improved toughness. 13C26 at 58/60 HRC is actually 5-7 HRC points UNDER hardness. Just think about that for a minute.

This would akin to running AUS-4A at 50/52 HRC. Now that of course looks just crazy, but that is the reality of the current underhardening of 13C26. It is just spun differently because of the magic-60 HRC myth. But as noted, Johnston has been noting for over ten years that this not only leaves steels underhardened, it often puts many of them right in the embrittlement zone. They lose toughness when they are temper drawn.

The benefit of 13C26 over 12C27M (which is on par with the lower AUS's series) is that it has a higher maximum hardness at a lower toughness/corrosion resistance. As I noted before, you can actually achieve the given ran hardness in 12C27M (58/60 HRC) and the blade would be tougher with more corrosion resistance at the same hardness. It is also cheaper to buy, grind and sharpen.

I would love to try it! Like you said, talk about extreme opposites, that would be VERY interesting and enlightening.

I am most curious as to the edge stability. I'll see if I can't dig up a regular D2 blade in a very thin profile (3-5 degree edge) for a reference. I use that as a long term slicer so the edge is usually left very coarse, 80 grit or so.

-Cliff
 
Thom I don't deburr at the same angle I sharpen at. GunMike my post is about a proper edge, not about a burr. Just because you prefer one type of edge doesn't mean it is a proper edge for everyone.
 
Just because you prefer one type of edge doesn't mean it is a proper edge for everyone.

Yeah, but Mike's one of those freaks who thinks knives are supposed to cut instead of mash or hammer. Apparently, knives that cut is some heretical idea on some of these forums. Thank goodness there are bastions of sanity at Ko's house and Whitlock's house. And Uncle Alvin's boxcar.

Cliff,

I know that the temper which generally gets 1095 to the RC58-60 is its embrittlement zone, but is this also the case with 13C26? Likely isn't the same as is. Actually, even if it's the embrittlement point, then 13C26 is very tough if it's brittle at RC61.

Gunmike1,

I'll draw a graphic which shows the non-parallel sharpening and how it can work for thumstud evasion and make 'sharpening notches' not seem so worthless. Later tonight or this weekend.
 
No, the embrittlement zone for stainless is much higher (950F vs 500 F) temperature wise though the mechanism is still the same, carbide precipitation. There are a lot of stainless so tempered though, ATS-34 was common.

As for 13C26 and edges, again it was DESIGNED for using very thin and acute edges, the steel is being misused otherwise and the knife would have superior performance in another steel (higher carbide).

-Cliff
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by db

Just because you prefer one type of edge doesn't mean it is a proper edge for everyone.
Yeah, but Mike's one of those freaks who thinks knives are supposed to cut instead of mash or hammer. Apparently, knives that cut is some heretical idea
on some of these forums. Thank goodness there are bastions of sanity at Ko's house and Whitlock's house. And Uncle Alvin's boxcar.

Are you implying I don’t believe knives should cut but should hammer and mash? Can’t knives over 12 degrees cut? Just because Kershaw and most every other factory even Spyderco doesn’t put on a highly polished under 12 degree edge that isn’t a proper edge? Is a proper edge one that can cut toilet paper but be destroyed cutting a tie?
 
As for 13C26 and edges, again it was DESIGNED for using very thin and acute edges, the steel is being misused otherwise and the knife would have superior performance in another steel (higher carbide).

My Junk Yard Dog II takes less damage thinning out hardwood than my Wilsonized ATR and reacts much quicker to the same abrasives, so I'd choose soft 13C26 (RC60-61) over hard S30V (RC60-61) for non-culinary/non-skinning uses. High-carbide steels belong in knives with Wilsonized grinds and Wilsony uses (hunting, fishing, cooking).

Is a proper edge one that can cut toilet paper but be destroyed cutting a tie?

Which of your knives can cut a twist-tie without taking damage? Which one? And how much effort does cutting a twist tie with that knife (not tinsnips or wirecutter) require?

The axe in Juranitch's book was sharpened to 10 degrees per side out of concerns for durability. That axe! The skinning knife was sharpened to 6 degrees per side as it didn't have to cut hardwood. If an axe is taking a 20-included degree edge for strength - not a ribbon cutter, nor a sashimi knife; an axe - what business on this heaven below does a knife have needing a thicker edge?
 
Which of your knives can cut a twist-tie without taking damage? Which one? And how much effort does cutting a twist tie with that knife (not tinsnips or
wirecutter) require?
BM Leopard Cub ATS 34, caly Jr. VG10, Queen stockman D2, and a Vic. Cadet have all cut a wire twist tie found in most new toys with no damage. It took no effert at all I was very surprised how easy it was cut. I laid the tie on a poly cutting board and cut it with a rocking cut.
 
I laid the tie on a poly cutting board and cut it with a rocking cut.

I stand corrected. Thanks much. When I last cut a tie, it was in the air, tethered by cardboard and a toy. Never think to bring out a cutting board.

Gunmike1,

Here's what I meant about not needing to remove the thumbstud:

chiharu.jpg


The crudely drawn knife doesn't have a thumbstud, but its upper left corner, where one would be, doesn't go near the D8XX or other benchstone.
 
The axe in Juranitch's book was sharpened to 10 degrees per side out of concerns for durability. That axe!
Hmmm ... I wonder if he was talking about the actual edge apex; if so, that sure isn't consistent with my own experience, and hardly seems consistent with conclusions/recommendations of Verhoeven, Lee, or Landes (IIRC) given the steel and heat treat of your typical axe head. And it certainly begs the question why Juranich's own Razor Edge sharpening guides are designed to produce such grossly more obtuse edges.

You guys and your wimply little wire ties ... hell, real men test their blades on piano wire and drill rod -- keeps your sharpening skills keen, and you always have good reason to be buying more knives!
 
I no longer free toys from their boxes with a knife. I have a 4 year old who doesn’t seem to care that I have a very sharp knife in my hand, he just wants the toy and wants it right now. So, yeah it’s a wire cutter for this knife nut and wire ties, unless I can escape and get to the cutting board.
 
I stand corrected. Thanks much. When I last cut a tie, it was in the air, tethered by cardboard and a toy. Never think to bring out a cutting board.

My knives chipped cutting the metal lined twist ties that came on my daughter's toys out of the box like you did, Thom. On a wood (admittedly soft) cutting board even INFI chipped and rolled on one of those ties. From what I have heard a proper, hard cutting board makes all of the difference, but wire cutters to cut the toy out of the box work fine for me, especially with my little one around.

Oh, by the way, moving today I cut several plastic ties with my Manix and it's 10 degree edge with 15 microbevel, and a decent amount of cardboard and other stuff. Not a hint of chipping, and it still scrape shaves. If S30V can handle that it should be child's play for 13C26 to have similar or better durability at a more acute profile (it better!), but time and cutting will tell the tale.

Gunmike1,

Here's what I meant about not needing to remove the thumbstud:

chiharu.jpg


The crudely drawn knife doesn't have a thumbstud, but its upper left corner, where one would be, doesn't go near the D8XX or other benchstone.

Thanks Thom, that is what I tried to do, but the stud was still a problem due to the placement and size of it. You almost have to do it that way anyway because you scratch up the handle, too, if you don't cant the knife like that. I will just pop the thumbstud out to more easily thin it out to a profile I like, as the ZDP Mini Cyclone thread said it is easy to remove.

Mike
 
In my experience cutting twisty ties rolls the edge badly. I have only tried it with A Byrd Meadowlark and a Gerber Paraframe though.
 
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