Initial impressions of Kershaw Cyclone

[gunmike1]

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that anyone else has yet been motivated to perform additional quantified, repeatable work, adequately describing their test procedures and posting results here on these forums. To simply assert that "the Manix has much better edge retention on cardboard" doesn't tell us much, and we're left to suppose that this conclusion was reached under conditions much different than what I've reported.

Sorry, I didn't have time during my moving to sit down and test the pushcutting on newsprint every X amount of cuts to be scientific. I do know that the Manix started out pushcutting newsprint close to 5" from the point of hold (4.98" ave., worst 4.6X" and best 5.3X", this is from memory, my notebook is buried somewhere in my moving mess so the max and minimum cuts aren't exact) with a Spyderco Ultrafine finish, and the Cyclone would have been better than that, since it was splitting hairs, which the Manix couldn't do, but the Manix would easily pop hairs above the skin, AKA tree top. I really thought that your test was very informative, I just gave my impressions from a couple long days of moving, nothing scientific at all. I, too, like my knives very sharp and the ability of them to hold that extremely sharp edge for a long time, but my uses this weekend were more of a slice on abrasive material without the time to sit down and break out the hones. Like I mentioned earlier Krein grinds in ZDP and SGPS would have been ideal, but my wife may have drove me nuts with some of her "techniques". When I break down boxes I generally hold them in my left hand, and with my right hand push the knife away from me while pressing down with my wrist in a slight chopping like motion, which induces a slice in the cut I am making. With that type of cut you would expect a high carbide stainless to beat 13C26, especially at a thinner and more acute profile. Now, when I bring the 13C26 to a thinner and more acute profile I would expect to see a big increase in performance, and it should easily hold it's higher sharpness level longer. Whether it will be enough to beat out S30V with a good heat treat (like my Manix seems to have, as it takes a real nice edge) and profile in long term slicing is very questionable, but the attributes you mentioned of getting very sharp and holding that very sharp edge better that the high carbide tactical steels that are shoved down our throats is very desirable to me. I really look forward to doing some more tests on 13C26 at thinner profiles to try to bring out it's strengths.

Mike

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that anyone else has yet been motivated to perform additional quantified, repeatable work, adequately describing their test procedures and posting results here on these forums.

Yes they have, Wilson for example, not to mention that class of steel has been well explored and quantified by Landes (on 13C26 specifically) and it is poor in long term edge retention for reasons noted clearly.

The amusing thing now is that the new hype (not your post) is directly contradicting the old hype of the old carbide steels but people are willing to accept both at the same time even though they are contradictory.

As Cliff notes 13C26 shows a modest but significant improvement over 12C27, with both outperforming VG-10, 0-1, 1095 and other steels.

You would expect this as noted in the article I wrote on edge stability.

Sorry, I didn't have time during my moving to sit down and test the pushcutting on newsprint every X amount of cuts to be scientific.

That isn't what scientific means.

With that type of cut you would expect a high carbide stainless to beat 13C26, especially at a thinner and more acute profile.

Easily, this is the fallacy of claiming high edge retention in 13C26 in general, it has a very low wear resistance so there is no way you can accept this and Crucibles stance on vanadium at the exact same time as they are directly contradictory but yet both of them currently are used to sell steels.

All that you have is hype about a "new" steel, you could not sell this about 420HC for example yet this has a near identical carbide volume and is just 1-2 HRC points lower. This is a *smaller* HRC change than Kershaw claims is insignificant. Run a 13C26 blade against a properly hardened 420HC blade and check the differnce.

-Cliff

 

[thombrogan]

Easily, this is the fallacy of claiming high edge retention in 13C26 in general, it has a very low wear resistance so there is no way you can accept this and Crucibles stance on vanadium at the exact same time as they are directly contradictory but yet both of them currently are used to sell steels.

All that you have is hype about a "new" steel, you could not sell this about 420HC for example yet this has a near identical carbide volume and is just 1-2 HRC points lower. This is a *smaller* HRC change than Kershaw claims is insignificant. Run a 13C26 blade against a properly hardened 420HC blade and check the differnce.

I use and prefer 52100 (hardened in the RC58-60 range versus the RC63-65 it can attain after cryo and tempering) to S30V as well. I don't argue that it has less wear-resistance than S30V (nor do I argue that about 13C26), and yet my knives in 52100 and 13C26 get less damaged cutting cardboard, plastic, and hardwood than S30V with a polished edge that's thin enough to not be hampered in cutting ability by having a high polish. From the other side of the spectrum; ZDP-189 hardened to about RC64; I also get better performance despite a lower wear-resistance. In my experience, S30V outperforms 154CM and 440C for what few knifey things I do, but is outperformed by other steels with much lower levels of wear-resistance at similar or higher levels of hardness as measured on the RC scale.

My edges tend to be thinner than 0.02" at their shoulder (thinner than 0.01" when I'm able) and polished and my cuts are slightly skewed push cuts with a hint of slice. Those types of cuts leave wood, cardboard, and paper with clean edges and seem to leave less rippling in the plastic I cut.

Cliff,

Would that sort of geometry, finish, and technique explain why these steels outperform S30V for my tasks or am I just experiencing a Hawthorne effect?

 

[Dog of War]

Thanks for the clarification, Mike. Regardless of anything else, or how accurately you choose to measure results, simply comparing two or more knives side-by-side is invaluable IMO, a quantum leap in usefulness of information generated. For example we've both mentioned newsprint push cutting results from time-to-time, but technique and material play a huge role. My technique has evolved to emphasize consistency of measurement -- in fact I've felt it might actually inflate the numbers, but seeing yours makes me realize that isn't necessarily so -- but even at that, skill and various factors change over time, so referencing multiple blades I find very helpful in pulling together results. Hair-whittling sharpness for me occurs somewhere around the 4" push cut level ... note though that the newsprint rectangles I use are 5" by 3", so that does present an absolute limit.

Personally I don't find anything contradictory in what's been observed and reported here. S30V should perform better in long-term cutting of materials such as cardboard. However S30V by its very nature is a poor choice for those seeking an extremely fine, polished edge (Hossom's recent thoughts on the subject notwithstanding.) A serious whittler, for example, desiring a corrosion resistant pocket knife I'm sure would be much more pleased with 13C26 than S30V. Thom's comments also point to much the same thing, and with any steel you have to choose your trade-offs based upon the work you expect to be doing (FWIW I think this is probably why VG-10 has become so well-liked, it strikes a useful balance between the high carbide, low edge stability super-tactical stainless steels, and those with higher edge stability but lower wear resistance; not optimum for anything, but pretty satisfactory for a wide range of work.)

BTW Mike I got a good laugh out of your comments about your wife's, uh, "technique" ... I've had friends, and especially girlfriends, that used knives in ways that would just make me cringe. IMO this is one of several valid reasons for having your EDC err towards the side of being more robust than needed. Of course the best solution is multiple EDCs.

 

[thombrogan]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Dog of War! Never realized that most of my cutting is whittling, but my wife teases me about being an old man ever since we started dating (in our very early teens), so it makes sense that I'm a whittle old man. That probably also explains why Schatt & Morgan users don't complain that their knives have 420HC while Queen uses D2 and the occasional BG-42.

Regarding techniques, I think it's funny that we cringe over the thought of edge damage and our wives just use the knives for cutting what needs to be cut. I'm still ashamed of the day I asked my wifey to not use a plate as a cutting board. It's not like I'm not just looking for an excuse to resharpen the kitchen knives. Gunmike1, though, doesn't have a belt-sander yet and is probably too exhausted to put his hips into sharpening with his D8XX, so he gets a pass on this one.

 

[db]

BTW Mike I got a good laugh out of your comments about your wife's, uh, "technique" ... I've had friends, and especially girlfriends, that used knives in
ways that would just make me cringe. IMO this is one of several valid reasons for having your EDC err towards the side of being more robust than needed.

Bingo! That is just what most all factories do, and to complain they don’t put on a proper edge for .05% of us knife nuts is kind of silly.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

... less damaged cutting cardboard, plastic, and hardwood than S30V with a polished edge that's thin enough to not be hampered in cutting ability by having a high polish.

This would be expected as it is just an issue of edge stability as S30V is very low. AUS-8A would easily be superior, as would 420HC if properly hardened. Landes style testing overseas has consistently found 420HC to score very high in all such work, surpassing steels like ATS-34, again as would be expected given the low carbide volume and it can reach the same level of hardness, 58 HRC.

Personally I don't find anything contradictory in what's been observed and reported here.

No, I was not refering to Mike comments, but others I have been more specific about. 13C26 is a low carbide stainless, similar to 420HC, 12C27M, etc. and thus has similar properties. Yes it has some benefits because of this, I have been arguing for such steels over high carbide versions since before there was a Bladeforums.

However it is very clear that the edge retention benefits of such steels is ONLY for very thin angles at high levels of sharpness and is maximized when they are taken to near as-quenched hardness. Johnston was the one who first brought this up on rec.knives, Landes expanded it and published, and even included stainless steels in his work which Johnston won't touch.

-Cliff

 

[gunmike1]

Thanks for the clarification, Mike. Regardless of anything else, or how accurately you choose to measure results, simply comparing two or more knives side-by-side is invaluable IMO, a quantum leap in usefulness of information generated. For example we've both mentioned newsprint push cutting results from time-to-time, but technique and material play a huge role. My technique has evolved to emphasize consistency of measurement -- in fact I've felt it might actually inflate the numbers, but seeing yours makes me realize that isn't necessarily so -- but even at that, skill and various factors change over time, so referencing multiple blades I find very helpful in pulling together results. Hair-whittling sharpness for me occurs somewhere around the 4" push cut level ... note though that the newsprint rectangles I use are 5" by 3", so that does present an absolute limit.

Personally I don't find anything contradictory in what's been observed and reported here. S30V should perform better in long-term cutting of materials such as cardboard. However S30V by its very nature is a poor choice for those seeking an extremely fine, polished edge (Hossom's recent thoughts on the subject notwithstanding.) A serious whittler, for example, desiring a corrosion resistant pocket knife I'm sure would be much more pleased with 13C26 than S30V. Thom's comments also point to much the same thing, and with any steel you have to choose your trade-offs based upon the work you expect to be doing (FWIW I think this is probably why VG-10 has become so well-liked, it strikes a useful balance between the high carbide, low edge stability super-tactical stainless steels, and those with higher edge stability but lower wear resistance; not optimum for anything, but pretty satisfactory for a wide range of work.)

BTW Mike I got a good laugh out of your comments about your wife's, uh, "technique" ... I've had friends, and especially girlfriends, that used knives in ways that would just make me cringe. IMO this is one of several valid reasons for having your EDC err towards the side of being more robust than needed. Of course the best solution is multiple EDCs.

The problem with newsprint and hair is how variable they are, the technique used, ect., so us compairing those numbers is apples to oranges (I will try 5"X3" squares next time, though). A good scale and thread setup would be nice, but again unless you have the same thread (and maybe even the lot would cause variation?) it is hard to make long distance comparisons. I agree that side by side comparisons are very valuble, and I just posted the behavior I saw with both knives being used side by side. The Manix is the knive I have closest in profile and size to the Cyclone in a vastly different steel, so I figured they would be good to run side by side, and both are robust enough to handle shoddy technique. It would be nice to constrain the amount of edge used to make the cuts and the amount of cuts made and to do a few runs, but moving day didn't allow that. I am saving lots of cardboard for future testing however on various knives, as soon as time allows.

In sharpening the Cyclone the edge at each grit was better for pushcutting compared to S30V, VG-10, and ZDP 189. Of course, that is what it was designed to do, and the edge just continued to get pleasingly sharper with each grit. I look forward to thinning the other knife out to very acute angles to try to bring out the best qualities of the steel and use it appropriately. I like to keep my knives sharp, and my rule of thumb is if it can't shave I can't carry it, so I think 13C26 is a steel I will like a lot. I almost always have my Krein Caly Jr. ZDP for the marathon cardboard sessions, my Manix in my left pocket, and a knife more suited to whittling in my right pocket (my R2 lately, largely for the reasons you cited for people like VG-10). I can definately see a 13C26 knife bumping itself into the rotation, or maybe even cementing itself in one of my pockets depending on how it works for me and what design the knife is.

Mike

 

[thombrogan]

This would be expected as it is just an issue of edge stability as S30V is very low.

<please excuse the snip/>

However it is very clear that the edge retention benefits of such steels is ONLY for very thin angles at high levels of sharpness and is maximized when they are taken to near as-quenched hardness.

The edges I'm talking about, while relatively sharp, aren't that thin. Some are a mammoth 0.02" at the shoulders (my newest 52100 pocketknife still needs trimming as it's a cetaceanic 0.04" thick ) and only ZDP-189 Caly3 and my 1095 Johnston knife are thinner than 0.01" (actually, the Johnston-made booboosnipper needs to meet the wetgrinder again.. :\ ) for non-kitchen knives. Should carbide volume be affecting edge stability in edges thicker than 0.005-0.007"?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

It is angles more so than thickness, the high carbide steels need edge angles 25+ for full stability, else they microchip.

Now if you are comparing high carbide at 20 degrees vs low carbide at 20 degrees and it favors the low carbide uniformly. This would be interesting as it directly contradicts Landes and Johnston, who even dared to note high carbide stainless was not outshined by 1095 at obtuse profiles.

That was high praise for stainless for Alvin.

-Cliff

 

[db]

Thom those thicknesses are behind the edge. I believe the carbide effect is only seen at the very edge, really thin tip of the edge, and mainly only with a very highly polished edge. With the common angles of 10 or 15 degrees per side I am not sure it&#8217;s an issue.

 

[thombrogan]

It is angles more so than thickness, the high carbide steels need edge angles 25+ for full stability, else they microchip.

Now if you are comparing high carbide at 20 degrees vs low carbide at 20 degrees and it favors the low carbide uniformly. This would be interesting as it directly contradicts Landes and Johnston, who even dared to note high carbide stainless was not outshined by 1095 at obtuse profiles.

That was high praise for stainless for Alvin.

I don't think I'm getting beyond 15 degrees per side if my rare use of the Sharpmaker can be trusted, so it's nice to read my observations mesh with their theories.

Thom those thicknesses are behind the edge. I believe the carbide effect is only seen at the very edge, really thin tip of the edge, and mainly only with a very highly polished edge. With the common angles of 10 or 15 degrees per side I am not sure it’s an issue.

With the rate of chipping I've gotten from S30V from just gardening and cutting twine, it was an issue for me, but I just don't use that many S30V blades anymore. This was 'trim a rose branch' gardening, not 'chisel a pleasant saying in the flagstone' gardening. Having an edge chip at a polished 13 degrees per side cutting twine - TWINE ! :grumpy: - was an eye-opener, though the newly formed random serration pattern was helpful.

 

[db]

Sure chipping is an issue. However the carbide in the steel isn&#8217;t always the cause or should it be blamed for it.

 

[thombrogan]

the carbide in the steel isn’t always the cause or should it be blamed for it.

With most steels failing, 99% of the time (or higher), the issue is me, but when 1095, 1080, 52100, 13C26, O1, 5160, M2, S7, ZDP-189, AUS-6, AUS-8A, INFI, 420HC, 440A, and 420J2 are all more forgiving...

 

[Dog of War]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Dog of War! Never realized that most of my cutting is whittling, but my wife teases me about being an old man ever since we started dating (in our very early teens), so it makes sense that I'm a whittle old man.

You know, whittling IMO is maybe the ultimate in blade enjoyment. Because there was a furniture and woodworking business in my family, growing up I got exposed to some cool old guys who made an art out of killing time, relaxing with a knife and piece of wood. I think a whole evening might have involved no more than a dozen careful, small cuts, interspersed between conversation, smokes and strong drink. And I'm sure those blades got stropped after every session -- yet another excuse to be busy when the wife's probably looking to put you to work!

Regarding techniques, I think it's funny that we cringe over the thought of edge damage and our wives just use the knives for cutting what needs to be cut. I'm still ashamed of the day I asked my wifey to not use a plate as a cutting board. It's not like I'm not just looking for an excuse to resharpen the kitchen knives.

This is about the only reason in the world for letting your woman get some Lennox china. First time she sees the faintest little scratch on a $50 dinner plate (which of course ruins an entire place setting) ....!

BTW Mike I got a good laugh out of your comments about your wife's, uh, "technique" ... I've had friends, and especially girlfriends, that used knives in ways that would just make me cringe. IMO this is one of several valid reasons for having your EDC err towards the side of being more robust than needed.

Bingo! That is just what most all factories do, and to complain they don’t put on a proper edge for .05% of us knife nuts is kind of silly.

And I'm convinced there will always be a sizeable percentage of knife nuts who want whatever the factories aren't making at the time. It's all about the relentless pursuit of perfection, even if that means having to redefine perfection so the pursuit can continue.

.... 13C26 is a low carbide stainless, similar to 420HC, 12C27M, etc. and thus has similar properties. Yes it has some benefits because of this, I have been arguing for such steels over high carbide versions since before there was a Bladeforums.

Yes, and I remember your posts having a lot to do with my coming to appreciate just what you gain, and what you lose, in deciding to go with a high vs. low carbide stainless or vice versa. Then when you throw in the realities of production and economics with respect to heat treat and finish ... little wonder it can be a tough situation for the consumer.

BTW Cliff I saw your post a few weeks ago on the BFC Spyderco forum about a line of knives using 12C27M, 12C27 and 13C26, and I thought they were excellent suggestions. Did you get any feedback from Sal? I know I probably sound like a broken record on these Sandvik steels -- maybe there really is something to the popular notion that they're unusually "clean" -- but particularly after the results you see with inexpensive Moras, it's hard not to believe the metallurgy is superior to most 420HC, AUS6, etc. (if they spike animal feed with melamine, surely somebody's thought about cutting corners of steel.) Or is it really just the crap heat treats we tend to see on low end steels?

... I like to keep my knives sharp, and my rule of thumb is if it can't shave I can't carry it....

Want to comment on that, Mike, so let me quote Thom:

With the rate of chipping I've gotten from S30V from just gardening and cutting twine, it was an issue for me, but I just don't use that many S30V blades anymore....

Now that pretty much sums up my experience with S30V -- only my experiences were more on blister packs, light cardboard, even just watching edges crumble while trying to apply a microbevel -- and I'm sure it's affected the way I look at knives today. Or at least it reveled something to me about myself: that I rarely find myself doing a lot of extended, heavy work on abrasive materials where high wear resistance and the sort of self-sharpening effect you can get with steels like S30V becomes beneficial.

No question about it, probably 95% of what I use an EDC knife for is handled best by a blade that can take an extremely sharp, fine edge, and hold it through a day of light cutting. One day is really all I have to have, of course more is better, but I suspect like everyone here I'm never without a means of sharpening.

Anyway I guess my point is, I think for all of us circumstances and capabilities dictate preferences, and those can and do vary widely. Sometimes I bemoan the fact that the cutlery industry doesn't make more of a point to emphasize the specialized nature of many of their products, but of course that would be lost on probably 99% of the market out there; and, it would mean pointing out the inherent limitations as well as advantages, which understandably isn't a favorite way to spend ad dollars.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

... it's nice to read my observations mesh with their theories.

Thom, good thing you don't live close to Landes. I don't know him personally, but telling an experimentalist that his work is just theory is like telling a woman that she looks kind of fat today.

With the rate of chipping I've gotten from S30V from just gardening and cutting twine, it was an issue for me...

Yeah, I never did see any sensible responce from Crucible to explain this at all. Just a lot of double talk which directly contradicted their origional promotion. There is no way any steel should be so poor in performance. I would really like to see the microstructure of such edges, they have to have blown grain, large amounts of retained austenite, or huge aggregated carbides.

Did you get any feedback...

Yes, problems with those steels, the AUS series is actually a very solid counterpart but trying to sell a AUS-4 blade as high performance is going to be difficult because of the misconceptions about the steel.

-Cliff

 

[thombrogan]

Thom, good thing you don't live close to Landes. I don't know him personally, but telling an experimentalist that his work is just theory is like telling a woman that she looks kind of fat today.

Also not knowing him, it's possible that he doesn't have as much emotional attachment or revulsion to words as you or me. What Landes has done and found is what he has done and found. His description, as is Alvin's, of what he has done and found is the theory.

Switching between Aeolian, Mixolydian, Locrian, and chromatic modes while jamming out is the theory even though the cranked out sound is bluesifying actuality. Why would it be any different with cutlery?

Yeah, I never did see any sensible responce from Crucible to explain this at all. Just a lot of double talk which directly contradicted their origional promotion. There is no way any steel should be so poor in performance. I would really like to see the microstructure of such edges, they have to have blown grain, large amounts of retained austenite, or huge aggregated carbides.

Some stuff might not be explained because it may expose trade secrets or make it easier for patented products to be reverse-engineered. With every foundry and their mother offering their own powdered metal these days, being able to cull an improvement from the internet and break a patent for fun and profit might be a lose-win diversion that doesn't appeal to T. Scott or to Dick Barber.

If you've noticed the heavy uptick in Japanese-style cutlery using not only steels with high carbide volumes, but also powdered metallurgy, you can appreciate that these steels are impressing more than just outdoorsmen and tactical operati, but also four to six continents of professional and recreational chefs. Folks who previously wouldn't be caught dead without a knife with white paper or blue paper steel are finding great culinary joy from CPM154 (Don't read too much into that, Thomas W, as some of these are the people whose reviews of Shun knives would make you gleefully reread Cliff's Kershaw comments to calm your nerves). They're loving SRS-15 and SG-2, too. Even I, a whittle old man, am gaga over SG-2 in the kitchen.

I share that to let you know there are rational motives for not sharing all of the beans with us end users even if what you're hearing are corporate mouthpieces who contradict themselves and volunteer no public resolution or admission of those contradictions. Coca-Cola won't share all of the ingredients and the proportions of their Diet Coke brand soft-drink with me even though I drink enough of it on a daily basis to recharge a car battery. It may be the same with steelmakers (though I don't intentionally inhale steel dust aside from S7 and M2).

 

[Cliff Stamp]

His description, as is Alvin's, of what he has done and found is the theory.

No, he has observed the carbide tearout directly under high magnification. It was also correlated to carbide volume, this is again experimental results which confirm a theory. Now Alvin was initially again theory, but was again correlated to direct experimental results. The correlation is an established experimental science.

Coca-Cola won't share all of the ingredients and the proportions of their Diet Coke brand soft-drink with me even though I drink enough of it on a daily basis to recharge a car battery.

There is more hype than reality here, you can go look up details on tools steels in reference books. Much of the promotion of secret methods is not based in reality. It is just promotion. Cashen has spoken about this in detail. It is why makers like Wilson are so open about how and what they do.

-Cliff

 

[gunmike1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dow
BTW Mike I got a good laugh out of your comments about your wife's, uh, "technique" ... I've had friends, and especially girlfriends, that used knives in ways that would just make me cringe. IMO this is one of several valid reasons for having your EDC err towards the side of being more robust than needed.

Originally Posted by db : Bingo! That is just what most all factories do, and to complain they don&#8217;t put on a proper edge for .05% of us knife nuts is kind of silly. End Quote

Well, that Wal Mart, mass market, subject to abuse Native had a factory edge under .020" and around 12 degrees per side on a hollow grind. The edge was repaired rather quickly after it's concrete escapade, it was restoring the nice, pointy tip that took some time. However, a couple passes on a belt sander would have fixed that tip in very quick order, rather than the time it took me on the stones to do it. If that nice, cutting oriented profile can be had on a cheap, mass market, subject to abuse knife in a steel with low edge stability, why in the world is a .030"/20 per side edge required on a very high edge stability steel like 13C26? Maybe Spyderco is losing their butt on warrantee returns on Wal Mart Natives, but I doubt it. At minimum an identical profile to the Native in 13C26 would take much less damage, and definately cut better than the current factory profile. And, while it was quick enough to bring the knife to 12 per side, bringing the edge thickness down will take some time on benchstones. And yes, I still would like to see a factory knife with a .005" edge thickness and high hollow grind, whether or not a major company will make one we'll have to see, but I can always hope. Either way, I doubt it will be a cheap, sold at Wal Mart folder, though that would be nice!

Mike

 

[thombrogan]

No, he has observed the carbide tearout directly under high magnification. It was also correlated to carbide volume, this is again experimental results which confirm a theory. Now Alvin was initially again theory, but was again correlated to direct experimental results. The correlation is an established experimental science.

A theory can be both a description and prediction. If the prediction always comes true within its constraints, the theory exists as a description and can eventually become a law. Hence the music theory reference.

There is more hype than reality here, you can go look up details on tools steels in reference books. Much of the promotion of secret methods is not based in reality. It is just promotion.

Some is there, some isn't. That it's being promoted at all is good in that you'll know it exists and can be evaluated according to your desires.