Initial impressions of Kershaw Cyclone

[Cliff Stamp]

I'd choose soft 13C26 (RC60-61) over hard S30V (RC60-61) for non-culinary/non-skinning uses.

Yes, push cutting is for high edge stability, high carbide is for long term wear / coarse / thick edges. Hopefully, sometime soon this point which has been repeated endlessly for about ten years now (and has even been published in recent years) will actually sink into the people who continuously do the opposite. Overseas this is really well known and knives are so designed.

Hmmm ... I wonder if he was talking about the actual edge apex;

The actual apex, less than 0.1 mm wide is about 25+, just a couple of passes on the finishing stone usually, depend on the axeman, but most will do it. The main bevel is actually under ten usually, 6-8 and then transitions to a secondary bevel when the bit dips under under 0.025" thick.

These numbers will be adjusted of course depending on the skill of the axeman, his strength and the type of wood and its conditon. But for example 0.025/15 degrees is a really obtuse bevel that I would use to cut through knots on seasoned spruce with a 3.5 lbs full length felling axe. This should point to the extreme nonsense of 0.030"/20 degrees on a small folder, especially when there are constant rants about abuse with such knives.

And it certainly begs the question why Juranich's own Razor Edge sharpening guides are designed to produce such grossly more obtuse edges.

Mass Market. Many of Spyderco's knives will come in vastly under the current Sharpmaker settings.

If S30V can handle that it should be child's play for 13C26 to have similar or better durability at a more acute profile (it better!), but time and cutting will tell the tale.

Properly hardened it has to, no different than Ti has to be lighter than steel. Material properties are material properties. AUS-8 would also be expected to have better durability as would 420HC, again properly hardened.

-Cliff

 

[fishtale]

Cliff, What knives are these? Are you referring to Moras? ft

 

[sodak]

So, can anyone tell me what a proper edge is anyways? Is it a very polished low angle edge, or a very coarse finish at a higher angle, or something in between? I am guessing a proper edge for one person probably isn’t the same for another. Good thing is those who know what a proper edge for them are; also know how to put that edge on a knife.

I think it varies, depending on the knife and it's intended usage. How's that for vague?

Seriously, for my small lockbacks, thin is in. Even on my stockmans, since I'm not notching hog's ears these days, all 3 blades are thin. But on my Khukuries and larger choppers, I leave them thicker, although nowhere near as thick as stock. I used to love high polish (and still sometimes do), but am also experimenting with leaving the edge at a blue or red DMT finish. This is really standing out on CPM 10V, but haven't yet drawn conclusions with D2. I know Cliff has had some monster results with coarse D2, I haven't had the time to verify that yet.

Zip ties dinged the edge on my Vic Scissors! :grumpy: Like others, I keep a leatherman and use the hardened cutting edge on the pliers for wire, and try to be vewy, vewy careful with zip ties if using a knife. They are surprisingly tough.

 

[thombrogan]

Pet nail clippers work best for that task. Wirecutters are overkill and knives need cutting boards to survive damage which makes them a pointless waste of time instead of the expedient solution knives are meant to be.

Just thickened the edge on one of my khukuris (got lazy with the sander ). It's a splitter versus a chopper anyways, so maybe it'll finish the bedframe when the lawn dries up.

Speaking of wirecutters, khukuris, and CPM10V,

How's the Cyclone doing, Gunmike1?

 

[db]

I think it varies, depending on the knife and it's intended usage. How's that for vague?

It may be vague, but I think it’s the correct answer.

Seriously, for my small lockbacks, thin is in. Even on my stockmans, since I'm not notching hog's ears these days, all 3 blades are thin. But on my Khukuries
and larger choppers, I leave them thicker, although nowhere near as thick as stock. I used to love high polish (and still sometimes do), but am also experimenting
with leaving the edge at a blue or red DMT finish. This is really standing out on CPM 10V, but haven't yet drawn conclusions with D2. I know Cliff has
had some monster results with coarse D2, I haven't had the time to verify that yet.

I also like thin edges for almost all of my knives I carry and use, but if someone prefers a thicker edge than I do I don’t have a problem with it. I can only really think of 3 knives that I got new that I didn’t immediately rebevel and sharpen. I also prefer a coarser finish than most seem to on the forums. Heck I even just received a pretty thin Caly JR with a very nice edge on it but it couldn’t slice manila rope as well as the coarser finish edge on my knife. I don’t quite go as coarse as Cliff 80 grit. More like around a Medium Spyderco bench hone finish, but I will also put on a very polished edge with a wet stone and a strop. So when I asked what is a proper edge? I truthfully want to know since for me it really does change depending on many things. Heck I sometimes am not even happy with my own edges.

 

[sodak]

Yeah, and my ZDP knives don't slice rope worth beans either. Is it lack of belly (the knife's, not mine) or the polish? Or both? I'm still investigating that...

So much to learn! That's what makes it fun!

How's that Cyclone, Gunmike1?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Cliff, What knives are these?

Cheap knives you buy in a flea market for a dollar. They are often ground very thin.

... am also experimenting with leaving the edge at a blue or red DMT finish. This is really standing out on CPM 10V, but haven't yet drawn conclusions with D2.

Same class of steel, really high carbide. They should behave similar with 10V being a more extreme example.

Yeah, and my ZDP knives don't slice rope worth beans either.

Mine do, 3/8" hemp, ~5 lbs on a two inch draw. How is that for slicing ability. Try that with a 0.030"/20 edge high polish and see what *numbers* you get.

-Cliff

 

[sodak]

Mine do, 3/8" hemp, ~5 lbs on a two inch draw. How is that for slicing ability. Try that with a 0.030"/20 edge high polish and see what *numbers* you get.
-Cliff

I'll give it a shot.

 

[gunmike1]

The Cyclone is well, as expected the Manix has much better edge retention on cardboard, but that is to be expected. No rolling or chipping, also as expected. The only thing that bothers me about it is that it is a liner lock, but but it does seem very stable and secure. I just won't twist and torque it on any cuts. It would also be nice if the handle was another material or had inserts for better grip, as it is as heavy as my Manix and gets slippery when your hands are sweaty. I will resharpen it and give it to my Dad asap, then try my luck with the other one.

Mike

 

[Thomas W]

Mike, you must not feel to good about giving your father back his knife with a blade that is equivalent to AUS-4 with a 50-52 Rc?

Thom, DoW, I am shocked either of you had any sort of positive performance words to say. Are you both reporting your experiences truthfully?

Actually with the current passarounds and all those real life customers that have actually used the steel, it's crazy to hear even one positive comment ...yet, there they are.

The only thing missing from your commentary Cliff is calling me out as a sleazy salesman, and Kershaw being nothing but a hype machine. Oh and you could add something positive about Spyderco. If that could take place, it would equate to the same like informational thread as past 13C26 ones. I'm calling this one Episode 4 Revenge of the Cliff...I mean Sith, sorry. Can we get this published or produced somewhere?

Can't wait till Episode 5, hmm, we will need a title for that one as well. Should be released sometime very soon, at least that's the word on the street.

 

[nygiantsfan3342]

Can't wait till Episode 5, hmm, we will need a title for that one as well. Should be released sometime very soon, at least that's the word on the street.

STAMPire Strikes Back!

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The Cyclone is well, as expected the Manix has much better edge retention on cardboard, but that is to be expected.

Finally some reality in regards to the over generous praise of 13C26 in regards to edge retention which is fairly absurd at times because it would not be expected to be overly higher than 12C27M which is on par with the lower AUS series steels, yes that is the factual reality when the heat treatment isn't optomized.

Now of course if you are Landes level at 63/65 HRC then you would assume to see a large difference just as Johnston's 1095 knives at 66 HRC do not behave like 1095 at 55/57 HRC. Johnston's knives will cut material readily that the softer edges will roll immediately. Wilson noted the same years ago which is why he runs at the upper end of the hardness scale.

I would assume by the above that you mean long term slicing aggression which will be wear based and thus 13C26 will be VERY low compared to the high carbide steels like S30V. However if you do push cuts at low edge angles I would bet that 13C26 will outperform S30V initially, assuming the heat treatment is sound anyway. Again, this will only hold at low angles. With the initial Kershaw profiles 13C26 has NO advantage in that regard and will be dominated by S30V class steels.

And yes, even 420HC will do the same (slice/push wise) as it is the same class of steel as are the lower AUS series which are 54/56 HRC for AUS-4, if you believe the manufacturer. In reality they are always low for almost everyone based on the random sampling I have seen which is usually 1-5 HRC points UNDER hardness. This is one of the reasons why you can get such dramtic differences in user reports on the same knife and why you can use a AUS-4 knife and a AUS-8 knife and have them be identical as one is a little low and falls on the other.

This is why I am HRC testing ALL knives the group reviews so we can again separate HYPE from FACT. However I only tell you the hardness AFTER you tell me your impressions. So you better be confident that you are factual and not promotional as it will be made clear very quickly if your work is meaningful or not.

-Cliff

 

[thombrogan]

I'm guessing that almost all of my cuts qualify as push-cuts. OTOH, I was testing my 13C26 blades with angles similar to my S30V with actions which chipped the S30V blades. The 13C26 had very tiny, barely visible dents compared to visible microchips found with S30V. The action performed was whittling (a mostly push-cut action) large chips of hardwood (don't know the tree(s) used - the plastic baggy said hardwood). Heck, I think I pushcut with my serrated blades, too.

Would it be more fair to include that both my laminated carbon Ericksen and my ZDP Caly3 both did the same 'feat' with thinner edges and lower angles without suffering any visible damage? Because that happened, too.

 

[Dog of War]

Thom, DoW, I am shocked either of you had any sort of positive performance words to say. Are you both reporting your experiences truthfully?

The Cyclone is well, as expected the Manix has much better edge retention on cardboard, but that is to be expected. No rolling or chipping, also as expected.

Finally some reality in regards to the over generous praise of 13C26 in regards to edge retention....

The data simply are what they are, fellas --

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4484109&postcount=1

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that anyone else has yet been motivated to perform additional quantified, repeatable work, adequately describing their test procedures and posting results here on these forums. To simply assert that "the Manix has much better edge retention on cardboard" doesn't tell us much, and we're left to suppose that this conclusion was reached under conditions much different than what I've reported.

For clarification, my focus -- at least what I've reported here -- has been on early stage edge retention at very high levels of sharpness. This is of interest to me because my knife usage involves a great deal of push cutting, and cutting of materials where a very fine edge is desirable.

Testing I've done using cardboard shows similar early stage edge retention relationships. As Cliff notes 13C26 shows a modest but significant improvement over 12C27, with both outperforming VG-10, 0-1, 1095 and other steels. For certain users -- and in particular, one might suspect many knife enthusiasts who maintain their knives rigorously -- I consider this an important parameter of performance.

Perhaps if I were willing to take a massive cut in pay and take a job where cutting up dirty carpet or breaking down old boxes was a primary duty, my focus would be different. But even then, S30V and similar tactical stainless steels -- themselves mostly available only at less-than-optimal production hardnesses -- probably wouldn't be my first choice; for such work, a Byrd would probably be a very solid choice, especially at less than 1/5th the price of a Manix.

 

[Thomas W]

Finally some reality in regards to the over generous praise of 13C26 in regards to edge retention which is fairly absurd at times because it would not be expected to be overly higher than 12C27M which is on par with the lower AUS series steels, yes that is the factual reality when the heat treatment isn't optomized.

Ah yes Cliff, always looking for that one comment to try and confirm YOUR reality, yet ignoring all the others. That must be some sort of NEW science.

Customers are enjoying the performance of 13C26 at 59/60 Rc. We have never claimed it was the end game in performance, but the majority overwhelmingly has come back with positive feedback.

To again rip us and the all those users that have publicly posted their encouraging findings, shows your true arrogance. To openly backhand folks for sharing their real world experiences is also a bit odd IMO (some from actual darksiders mind you).

Your "tell" is now quite apparent, and you continue to show that you have some sort of bias against Kershaw, and quite frankly I have to wonder why that is?

 

[jvan]

Cliff, still waiting for your response regarding your published works, how about it?

 

[db]

Jvan, I think we all know when Cliff is caught in one of his lies he refuses to answer directly any questions about it. I think he thinks if he ignores it long enough everyone will forget it. Silly huh?
DoW was that a push cut on sisal rope? I found a polished edge on just about any steel didn’t cut manila rope very well. Manila and sisal are very similar I believe.

 

[Dog of War]

DoW was that a push cut on sisal rope? I found a polished edge on just about any steel didn’t cut manila rope very well. Manila and sisal are very similar I believe.

Yes, pretty much, db. I allowed no more than 1/8"-3/16" of draw on each cut and much of the time blades just pushed right through without unusual effort. Of course since I was cutting just back of the tip and all knives tested had somewhat bellied blades (IIRC) with handles held elevated maybe 15-30 degrees from horizontal, these weren't absolutely pure push cuts like you'd get with a Wharncliffe held perpendicular and allowing no draw, for example. FYI edges were finished on fine ceramic, about 1200 grit equivalent I believe, and the rope used was 1/4" sisal. Downward force needed generally peaked in the 3 to 4 lb. range (did a few rounds on a bathroom scale just to check.) I've read that manila rope is a little stronger than sisal, but I think they're sold as being otherwise pretty comparable.

I noticed doing this that the ergonomics of some knives really affect subjective perception of how much effort is being used. The jimping on the G-10 Cara Cara for example became really onerous on bare hands before long, while some knives like the JYD2 and surprisingly an FRN Caly Jr. give the impression of very little force being applied.

 

[gunmike1]

My comparison was slicing action breaking down a lot of boxes and plastic twist ties. The Manix kept cutting well after the very polished edge of the Cyclone was ripping the cardboard (though the Manix was fairly polished as well, just not stropped on the polishing cloth). Not quantified at all, just my experiences while moving and breaking down boxes. My Krein knives would have kicked both of their asses in a major way, but since my wife was handling the knives I didn't want her using the Kreinage after seeing her cut cardboard with the concrete driveway as a background with my Native. Let me tell you, that doesn't do much good for an edge or tip profile. I will try to do a better quantified test later, but when you look at the properties of the steels you would expect S30V (at a thinner and more acute profile to boot) to beat 13C26 anyway, so why is that a shock? I do want to thin the other Cyclone out more and try some pure push cutting tests to see some quantifiable results where it seems best suited and at an advantage over the high carbide steels that are shoved down our throats, but moving, working 6 days a week, and family take precidence over my hobbies. The edge of the Cyclone does look very good after a lot of work though, no chipping or anything, though the same can be said for the Manix, which only has very slight microchipping near the tip, presumably from slight side loading cutting the twist ties. More proof that for those tasks you don't need such thick profiles, at least in my mind.

Mike

 

[sodak]

My Krein knives would have kicked both of their asses in a major way, but since my wife was handling the knives I didn't want her using the Kreinage after seeing her cut cardboard with the concrete driveway as a background with my Native. Let me tell you, that doesn't do much good for an edge or tip profile.

Your wife and mine are sisters! Aaaaauuuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, on the bright side, you at least got the concrete test out of the way! Did you measure depth of cut?