Initial impressions of Kershaw Cyclone

[neeman]

I have read this thread with great interest.
Not sure how much I have understood!!
I have also searched and researched the site.

What I do understand is that I am asking for a simplified answer to a highly complex question!!

Where can I get organized information about sharpening angles for different steels, starting from Aus4, Aus8, CM154, ATS34, S30V, and VG-10.

Thanks,

Neeman

 

[sherlockbonez]

Yeah I would also like a simple summary from someone if possible.

IE - push cutting wood with 13Cr36 10 degree high polish, cardboard slaying with S30v 15 degree, less polish etc.

 

[thombrogan]

Where can I get organized information about sharpening angles for different steels, starting from Aus4, Aus8, CM154, ATS34, S30V, and VG-10.

Hi neeman!

There is no such source, unfortunately. The problem is, the 'best' angle for any of those steels will depend on how it was heat-treated, what you're doing, how you're doing it, and how thick the steel is at the top of the edge (the 'shoulders' as they're called). Trial and error is what it's all about.

 

[neeman]

Ok, so let me ask...

I am looking at a cutting push profile for blades 2 1/2" and smaller in different steels.

Is a narrow profile what is being aimed for?

If I thin out the shoulder of a blade, to get a narrow profile, it will mean that it gets blunt faster.
But it will also mean I can sharpen it faster and sharper.
Correct?

My Sheffield (Rogers) carbon steel cooking knives are as close to flat as I can hone them.
I use them, and when I finish using them touch them up with a extra fine diamond DMT.
They are very sharp and have been since I bought them in 67.

My SAK, Camilius army knife and small blades like this I have used the same as near a flat hone.

Now I am starting with heavier blades, I am not clear how to sharpen them.
My first tendency would be to use a course DMT to take off the shoulder and get a flatter hone.
Is this a mistake?

Sorry if this does not make too much sense, as it is difficult to describe.

Thanks for any feedback.

Neeman

 

[jaislandboy]

It’s my guess that even on the forums most people are in the sharpened pry bar camp by a very large margin. Now what people want and what they are willing to pay for seem to be two different things. If a person wants a Krein grind on all their knives I think Tom would be happy to do that. To complain and or accuse a company of improper blade grinding because they are using a high edge stability steel really makes me ask, what does edge stability have to do with thickness like .02, .01, or even .005? Even more silly to me is the complainers regrind and thin the blades, then put a thinner relief edge grind on and then micro bevel with the Sharpmaker. All in the name of high edge stability. Well, from what I’ve been able to learn the Sharpmaker is at 15 degrees per side and the fine rods finish at an arguably 6 microns. At that angle and finish high wear steel like D2 is a better choice than 13C26. 13C26 reportedly really performs best at much lower angles and with a much higher polish. So do the complainers even really know what they want? Or is it just easier to accuse a factory of improper edges and blade grinds, and misuse of steel? That is not constructive, that is complaining. For me the facts are most everyone that has gotten and used a Kershaw are very happy with them. Those like myself who like thinner edges and thinner blade grinds, will customize any brand of knife we buy to how we like it. I do think that the suggestion of matching the edge grind to the Sharpmaker is a good one. But, what Sharpmaker angle, the 20 or 15? Remember a factory wants to sell the most amount of knives to the most people.

yeah I hear ya DB.....that's why whenever there's a "Ganza" going on, the server on this Forums comes to a halt....
that said....I'm very happy with my Kershaws....but for pocket folders that will be used for slicing/light duty I still like my edges 30degrees (inclusive) or less (i've been spoiled by Spyderco, i guess) ......
Now the factory edges on the Shun series of Kershaw's kitchen knives ....these acutely ground edges are breathtakingly sharp!....

 

[thombrogan]

Thin profiles don't always blunt faster. Often, when they do, the remedy is to make them thinner. With a push cut, you're using a wedge and force. The wider the wedge, the greater amount of its material will be in contact with what's being cut and the higher amount of force must be used to complete the cut. This higher level of force is spread out over a larger area, so it may sometimes spare the very apex of the edge, but that's not always the case. A lot of what is experienced comparing thick and thin edges involves relative changes in needed force versus total changes. That is, if your waifer-thin pushcutter needs 5 units of force to cut when hot off of the hone and dulls to the point where the same cut now requires 13 units of force, well, it seems much duller and is five times duller. If your knife with the more robust edge requires 25 units of force to pushcut when sharp and feels dull when it requires 40 units of force, it only seems slightly duller.

The best place to see those effects is with kitchen cutlery. Thinly slice three or four onions with a German-style chefs knife and do the same with a Japanese-style chefs knife. Your tear-ducts will let you know which knife used much less force and finished the job ahead of time.

Even there, there's no specific angle or range of angles. A steel like VG-10 with an industry standard heat-treat to a hardness of RC58 can take a 24-30 angle with no problem if it's 0.02" or thicker behind the edge (that's 12-15 degrees per side). When the shoulder area gets thinner, though, the angle needs to be steeper or else the edge will roll or chip more easily.

Jimmy Fikes once shared a good rule for finding out how thin or thick an edge should be. He suggested thinning out the edge until it would easily chip during regular cutting and then slightly thicken the edge from there. That lets you experience all of what we're discussing without having to break out the protractors, micrometer, and metallurgy handbooks and gets you more experienced with sharpening and rebevelling.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

FYI, the only company you mentioned that is into volume is Buck Cliff. You also mention companies that are not even in the manufacturing business, some even out of business.

One is enough to show your arguement is without merit as you claim it is not possible. Plus do you really want to argue that the reason they (the others mention) can produce those profiles is that their volume is so small.

Well those types of general size and numbers assessments between companies are really not appropriate on a public forum. At least IMO.

Then don't bring it up.

Cliff, calling the choices that a company makes "foolish" is the pot calling the kettle black, by very nature of the comment. It is not helpful or conducive to discussion. It is your opinion, and frankly, you have damaged your own credibility in this, and other threads so far.

No it isn't opinion, it is fact. Steel rigidity has a known relationship on thickness, you can look this up. Your nonsense about opinion is what polutes such threads because you have no factual basis and have no ability to even understand facts when presented. How can you possibly argue that a 3" folder needs the same edge thickness as a 10" bowie which is batoned through heavy knotty wood. Have you ever even used a native golok or an actual felling axe. Have you checked the thickness of the edge. Now how can you argue that a THICKER profile is sensible on a small folder. Again, pure nonsense.

Landes could be the new messiah with regard to steel research, but have not heard or read enough to absorb it all.

Then first, stay out of discussions which are topical on his work, and second he is saying nothing knew which you would know if you actually discussed knives rather than people. The exact same thing has been said for over ten years on the internet by many people and is known overseas for much longer. The fact that you are completely ignorant and still interject your opinion and refer to "opinions" which cite published work is absurd.

There is no such source, unfortunately.

Yes there is, it is a simple matter of edge stability.

If I thin out the shoulder of a blade, to get a narrow profile, it will mean that it gets blunt faster.
But it will also mean I can sharpen it faster and sharper.
Correct?

This is basically the reverse. It will stay sharper for longer, but it takes longer to sharpen, unless you micro-bevel. Swaim measured this about ten years ago.

-Cliff

 

[Kohai999]

One is enough to show your arguement is without merit as you claim it is not possible. Plus do you really want to argue that the reason they (the others mention) can produce those profiles is that their volume is so small.

No it isn't opinion, it is fact. Steel rigidity has a known relationship on thickness, you can look this up. Your nonsense about opinion is what polutes such threads because you have no factual basis and have no ability to even understand facts when presented. How can you possibly argue that a 3" folder needs the same edge thickness as a 10" bowie which is batoned through heavy knotty wood. Have you ever even used a native golok or an actual felling axe. Have you checked the thickness of the edge. Now how can you argue that a THICKER profile is sensible on a small folder. Again, pure nonsense.

Then first, stay out of discussions which are topical on his work, and second he is saying nothing knew which you would know if you actually discussed knives rather than people. The exact same thing has been said for over ten years on the internet by many people and is known overseas for much longer. The fact that you are completely ignorant and still interject your opinion and refer to "opinions" which cite published work is absurd.

1. Buck and Kershaw do different things. Buck had to change their entire method of production, including making a move to Idaho to become profitable. Kershaw has been profitable since before Thomas came onboard. THAT would be the bottom line.

2. Opinion is what you are spouting, not fact. You may THINK that it is foolish to use a particular steel in a particular edge configuration, but if it is PROFITABLE, from the manufacturer's position, and people like the product, it is in FACT not foolish.

3. I'll stay out of discussions involving Landes when you stay out of discussion involving subjects that you know absolutely nothing about, like business.

4. Cliff, I'm no keyboard commando. If I ever get to meet you, we can discuss my "absurdity" or "ignorance" in person, until then, you might want to get a haircut, start with the Slimfast diet, lift some weights(not a leg of lamb), take up karate/or sprinting, and answer pointed questions like "where can we read your published papers"? Instead of rationality, which you continually espouse as necessary to discussion, you are moving towards personality, which is my thing. And I was nice to you in the above post.

5. Thomas answered the question about numbers directly, unlike you. His answer was reasonable.

You can ask Cashen, or Schempp, or even Sal about me. Ask them if I lie, ask them about my intelligence, especially, ask them how mentally stable they percieve me to be, and how I might suffer arrogant fat bastards such as yourself.

NO regards for your pustulence, what so ever,

STeven Garsson

 

[db]

Well, I don’t know. The name of the knife is Cyclone and to me that doesn’t really imply thin delicate light duty knife. Even when holding in the hand it seems like a very solid hard use knife. I think I may just give Krein a call to change that fact. Luckily it is allot easier to thin a knife than it is to thicken one. For those who like their knives built like a tank they are going to love this just as it is.

 

[neeman]

Thom,

Getting it...
Giving me what to think about.

Thanks,

Neeman

 

[neeman]

Yes there is, it is a simple matter of edge stability.

This is basically the reverse. It will stay sharper for longer, but it takes longer to sharpen, unless you micro-bevel. Swaim measured this about ten years ago.
-Cliff

Cliff,

Please talk to me as a beginner.
Could you explain Edge Stability as a function of the softness of the steel and the angle of the hone.

Also, after I have taken the time to rehone a blade so I have created narrower profile, (smaller hone angle), why will it take me longer to resharpen?

Thanks,

Neeman

 

[FlyingMuskrat]

It will take you longer because there will be more surface area that you must grind just a little bit of steel off of to get your sharp edge.

If you grind the main bevels thinner, then that should make your knife easier to sharpen (and it will cut better). Unfortunately most people don't have the equipment or desire to regrind the main bevels.

If you don't understand, I or someone else can explain further.

 

[C Ben Susrool]

Well, I don’t know. The name of the knife is Cyclone and to me that doesn’t really imply thin delicate light duty knife. Even when holding in the hand it seems like a very solid hard use knife. ,,,,,,,,, For those who like their knives built like a tank they are going to love this just as it is.

I agree with the quote above. (Notice it is not the full quote).
This is exactly what I wanted and I am grateful Kershaw made it available to me.
Thomas W.,
Any manufacturer that has a forum here has to take the bad with the good. I have noticed that some of them are very selective about what they respond to. I think you should take the same track, if the post appears to lead to nowhere benefitial to the general customer or the company.
Also in my opinion, I don't think it is good for a company representative to get in an adversarial relation with a poster. Practice "Ignore Ignorance."
I am very glad you are here, I value your posts and hope you can stick around. I think this, or better, a Kershaw forum, is and would be good for your company.
I am pleased with my last three Kershaw purchases, however, I don't like the airplane markings on the JYD (I think anyone who is or has been associated with aircraft in any way would love them). I think the JYDII needs a lanyard hole. I wish the ZDPTi was one inch longer handle and blade.
There, the above paragraph was just to show that I am not always rosy, optimistic, and without criticism of the knives I have.

Another Thomas W (my middle initial)

 

[thombrogan]

Neeman,

Here are some drawing which represent a thick knife edge and a thinned knife edge. The thinned knife edge is resharpened with micro-bevel.

I'll include a thin edge without a microbevel, too.

 

[Gary W. Graley]

Time planned carefully

 

[neeman]

Neeman,

Here are some drawing which represent a thick knife edge and a thinned knife edge. The thinned knife edge is resharpened with micro-bevel.

I'll include a thin edge without a microbevel, too.

Thom,
Great illustrations!
Thanks for the input.

The microbevel is like the second hone on a chisel.
The angle of the microbevel will depend on the thickness of the blade and the hardness of the steel?
And the angle per knife will be the trial and error?
But the finer the angle the more delicate and better cutter the blade.
The steeper the angle the more stress can be put on the blade.

So my SAK, which has a very thin blade, will need a microbevel to make the sharpening fast.
But my old Camilus 7" will need a steep hone because it takes the wieght of the inpact on the blade. A thin hone would chip the edge.

It is just a learning curve, and having this information.
Really appreciate the help.

Neeman

 

[jaislandboy]

Just a clarification, I meant no disrespect to ThomasW in any way with my posts....
I buy (and will continue to buy) Kershaw knives b/c they are definitely quality products .... I own about 5 or 6 KAI knives including a couple of Two Cans...
I do not possess calipers or a belt grinder (yet) to critique my edges on my knives....
Nor do I use a loupe or magnifying glass to examine my edges....
Also,
I am more than satisfied with the sharp factory edges on my Bump, Junkyarddog2, Nakamura,JYD1, and Rainbow Chive..... :thumbup:
The only 2 models that i possess which I desire to have slightly more acute factory edges would be the Groove, and my zdp189 Ti Leek......
And the construction / build of the the framelock/linerlocks in my Kershaw folders are IMHO amongst the best in my collection including many Spydercos, a few Benchmades, and even some Lone Wolf Harsey folders..... :thumbup:
So other than minor quibbles about thinner edges, i am a happy Kershaw customer ....

 

[thombrogan]

The angle of the microbevel will depend on the thickness of the blade and the hardness of the steel?
And the angle per knife will be the trial and error?
But the finer the angle the more delicate and better cutter the blade.
The steeper the angle the more stress can be put on the blade.

It's those plus the carbide volume and carbide size as well. Your Becker may need a thicker microbevel to withstand severe impacts, but it won't need as thick of a microbevel as you would need on its S30V counterpart (the BK-77 Extreme). For your SAK to benefit from a microbevel, it'll need its blade thinned down a bit (the Victorinox SAK I have had a quite a thick edge :thumbdn: Is okay now :thumbup: ) and then that microbevel will appear like greased lightning. The steel on that knife is fairly soft which will limit its top performance, but don't thicken the edge back up and it becomes a problem.

 

[thombrogan]

So other than minor quibbles about thinner edges, i am a happy Kershaw customer ....

Beltsanders are your friend. If the edge is too wacky and wild to be safely thinned with a 1" wide belt, www.customsandingbelts.com is your friend. They'll make your edge better.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

1. Buck and Kershaw do different things. Buck had to change their entire method of production, including making a move to Idaho to become profitable.

This again is misdirection and nonsense. The types of profiles I have been mentioning were around for a long time, all stockman profiles for example, not to mention the mass production overseas. Claiming a major manufacturer can not duplicate in america what you can find on $10 knives is again absurd. Spyderco does it on the Byrd line for $20, but Kershaw can't do it on knives costing multiple times as much on cheaper steels?

You may THINK that it is foolish to use a particular steel in a particular edge configuration, but if it is PROFITABLE, from the manufacturer's position, and people like the product, it is in FACT not foolish.

It is foolishing from the point of view of functionality which is what I am discussing and what you ignore each time. Of course you can exploit misconceptions, this is what fads are all about. There are lots of foolish knives which exploit such mentality. There are also lots of makers/manufacturers who ignore this and focus on a quality product. .

... you are moving towards personality

No, it is all about the steel and geometry, as much as you keep trying to misdirect it. It is foolish and absurd from a point of view of functionality to put a felling axe profile on a steel which was designed for a razor blade. Of course you are going to ignore this because it can't be defended. This is completely obvious. THe fact that this even has to be defended shows the level of absurdity and hype being propogated.

And here is again the most ABSURD part. For that profile, again, as I have said MANY times before. You are completely ignoring the actual strongest property of the steel and in fact using it in a geometry where it has the LOWEST relative performance. THis again is FACT which you would know if you actually read any of the references provided in the above or used any so ground knives.

Could you explain Edge Stability as a function of the softness of the steel and the angle of the hone.

Edge stability of a knife decreases with softness and with decreasing edge angle.

Also, after I have taken the time to rehone a blade so I have created narrower profile, (smaller hone angle), why will it take me longer to resharpen?

The bevel is wider, so there is more steel to remove. This is why it is (and yes, this is fact not opinion, just math) foolish for people to have makers "convex" edges on knives in the manner it is currently done.

-Cliff