Initial impressions of Kershaw Cyclone

[Thomas W]

If that nice, cutting oriented profile can be had on a cheap, mass market, subject to abuse knife in a steel with low edge stability, why in the world is a .030"/20 per side edge required on a very high edge stability steel like 13C26? Maybe Spyderco is losing their butt on warrantee returns on Wal Mart Natives, but I doubt it.

Mike, do you have a clue about the amount of volume that the Wal-Mart account consumes annually? I'm not talking about 1 sku in limited stores like the Native, I'm talking about 6 sku's nationwide. My assumption is that is that it is a few more than you may think. This account alone makes up more knives than some manufacturers currently do in an entire year.

You mention warranty, and I have mentioned the cost of doing business in the past, as well as the set up's we have here internally here at Kai USA. Over the last 10 years we have learned a great deal about our customers along with what works and doesn't work in moving volumes of knives. With our continued growth (not in the outsourcing business btw), although we don't know everything, we are pretty good at what we do. If you or anyone else here can look past their darksider glasses and feels like they can improve what we do daily, by all means illuminate me send forth a resume ASAP.

We also understand the different steels and materials we use. We have 6 engineers on staff, we build our own robotics, and warranty our own machines. We are as self sufficient as they come. We have some of the best custom knife makers in our stable, with their names being put on the line, they understand what and why we do things the way we do, and it works for them, almost every time. Do we have to sacrifice, most assuredly, but we do it all in the name of a secure future.

We process our knives in a way that allows us to stay in business, as well as keep both the dealers and consumers satisfied (well, most of them anyway). I believe we wouldn't be where we are today, and our growth would fall off quickly if this were not the case. There are reasons for doing it the way we do, and sadly they are not always based on performance. Certainly you all must understand that performance does not come before returns in big box business. Unfortunately performance is a criteria that is rarely discussed when sitting face to face with a buyer.

When you are in the volume knife business, you have a bunch of 50 gallon drums sitting around, they fill up quickly, for reasons that are irrational in most cases. The returns and warranty would make your cringe...we back them up regardless. The uses these knives go through could write horror stories...we back them up regardless.

The above alone keeps the "let's go thinner" conversation to a minimum.

You think 13C26 is stable enough thinner, I think it is real easy for some to criticize from the keyboard, but if for just a moment you pretend the Kai Corp is your business and there are ten's of millions of dollars of your monies on the line, and hundreds of families are depending on you opening your doors daily, are you really ready to take the risk? We are not, I'm not. There are boutique runs for that sort of business.

This Knife Review's and Testing is an interesting place for a volume manufacturer to venture in to. You all are taking everything to the extreme, HT's, locks, geometry, sharpening techniques, etc., and are pretty darn harsh on anyone or any company that doesn't live up to you severe standards. Personally I don't think that Kershaw has been welcomed with open arms here, which is surprising as I would think you would want to assist and support one that comes to this special and somewhat lonely area of the cutlery universe. It seems though this area is for ridicule and damning commentary, a place that doesn't want to take into account all the obstacles that are set before us... yet one is encouraged to stick around and "have fun".

I think there is tremendous opportunity for this area to grow and learn from, but I caution those outsiders to read the signs posted around carefully before entering "proceed at your own risk".

 

[gunmike1]

Mike, do you have a clue about the amount of volume that the Wal-Mart account consumes annually? I'm not talking about 1 sku in limited stores like the Native, I'm talking about 6 sku's nationwide. My assumption is that is that it is a few more than you may think. This account alone makes up more knives than some manufacturers currently do in an entire year.

You mention warranty, and I have mentioned the cost of doing business in the past, as well as the set up's we have here internally here at Kai USA. Over the last 10 years we have learned a great deal about our customers along with what works and doesn't work in moving volumes of knives. With our continued growth (not in the outsourcing business btw), although we don't know everything, we are pretty good at what we do. If you or anyone else here can look past their darksider glasses and feels like they can improve what we do daily, by all means illuminate me send forth a resume ASAP.

We also understand the different steels and materials we use. We have 6 engineers on staff, we build our own robotics, and warranty our own machines. We are as self sufficient as they come. We have some of the best custom knife makers in our stable, with their names being put on the line, they understand what and why we do things the way we do, and it works for them, almost every time. Do we have to sacrifice, most assuredly, but we do it all in the name of a secure future.

We process our knives in a way that allows us to stay in business, as well as keep both the dealers and consumers satisfied (well, most of them anyway). I believe we wouldn't be where we are today, and our growth would fall off quickly if this were not the case. There are reasons for doing it the way we do, and sadly they are not always based on performance. Certainly you all must understand that performance does not come before returns in big box business. Unfortunately performance is a criteria that is rarely discussed when sitting face to face with a buyer.

When you are in the volume knife business, you have a bunch of 50 gallon drums sitting around, they fill up quickly, for reasons that are irrational in most cases. The returns and warranty would make your cringe...we back them up regardless. The uses these knives go through could write horror stories...we back them up regardless.

The above alone keeps the "let's go thinner" conversation to a minimum.

You think 13C26 is stable enough thinner, I think it is real easy for some to criticize from the keyboard, but if for just a moment you pretend the Kai Corp is your business and there are ten's of millions of dollars of your monies on the line, and hundreds of families are depending on you opening your doors daily, are you really ready to take the risk? We are not, I'm not. There are boutique runs for that sort of business.

This Knife Review's and Testing is an interesting place for a volume manufacturer to venture in to. You all are taking everything to the extreme, HT's, locks, geometry, sharpening techniques, etc., and are pretty darn harsh on anyone or any company that doesn't live up to you severe standards. Personally I don't think that Kershaw has been welcomed with open arms here, which is surprising as I would think you would want to assist and support one that comes to this special and somewhat lonely area of the cutlery universe. It seems though this area is for ridicule and damning commentary, a place that doesn't want to take into account all the obstacles that are set before us... yet one is encouraged to stick around and "have fun".

I think there is tremendous opportunity for this area to grow and learn from, but I caution those outsiders to read the signs posted around carefully before entering "proceed at your own risk".

I am by no means an expert on your business model or practices, I just posed the question if Spyderco can sell a model with a very thin and acute profile in a notoriously chippy steel at Wal Mart for $40 why can't a similar profile be put on a knife with a more edge stable and tougher steel? I'm talking run of the mill heat treat production models here, sold at the same vendor. The issue of warrantee returns seemed to be the main argument against the thinner profile (which I can understand) due to abuse, but when Spyderco offers that profile side by side with Leeks and Storms at the Wal Mart counter to the same customer base I just wonder why we can't see similar profiles from KAI in tougher steels. Obviously KAI's business is doing just fine and the vast majority of your customers are happy, so I can see where you don't want to change something that isn't broke when it may cost you money in warrantee returns. I am just an idiot babbling behind a keyboard here, so don't mind me. In the meanwhile I'll just have to spend more time reprofiling any KAI knives I buy, which isn't a big deal, but it would be nice from my perspective for them to be thinner from the start. Obviously KAI has valid reasons to keep the edges where they are at, and I can accept that. I guess I am just spoiled by some other companies products that come thinner.

Mike

 

[Thomas W]

Well when Kohai999 calls me up to tell me my post is grumpy...well then I must be out of line. If I came off as an ass, sorry Mike.

I guess I am just spoiled by some other companies products that come thinner.

Mike, what companies are you speaking of?

 

[db]

What does edge stability have to do with blade grind thickness like .02, .03, or even .005? Sometimes I think some people complain just to complain, and yes I think that is kind of silly. Thomas I don’t agree with everything you or Kershaw does but I for one am very happy to see you posting why you do it. O’heck I even like to read non-factual stuff too. Hype isn't all bad, is it?

 

[Thomas W]

Thomas I don’t agree with everything you or Kershaw does but I for one am very happy to see you posting why you do it.

Hell I don't agree with everything I do (the wife would love to chime in here) either, and don't love everything that we produce as well. We are just trying to improve and become more efficient daily. Sometimes we are even grumpy.

 

[db]

Hell I don't agree with everything I do (
We are just trying to improve and become more efficient daily.

There is nothing wrong with that, and the better you get the more specials we will hopefully see from that.

Sometimes we are even grumpy.

LOL I can’t imagine why.

Post Icons

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Mike, what companies are you speaking of?

Buck, Spyderco, CRK&T, Cold Steel, Fallkniven, Boye (production), Camillus etc. . The huge Cuda MAXX for example was way thinner and more acute at the edge. That described profile is just foolish for a small folder. It is completely absurd and anyone who argues it is necessary for abuse has no basis in reality. As I noted, that profile is even heavier than you would need on a 10" bowie if you were batoning it through knotty spruce with a framing hammer. You really want to argue this is the intended scope of work for a small folding knife.

-Cliff

 

[gunmike1]

Well when Kohai999 calls me up to tell me my post is grumpy...well then I must be out of line. If I came off as an ass, sorry Mike.

Mike, what companies are you speaking of?

I was referring to Spyderco, I happen to own more of their folders than any other, and they all come at 15 degrees or less per side (I've had 3 around 12 per side), save one Endura that was barely over 15 per side. Even the $20 Byrd Cara Cara I have came in under 15 per side. Most of the edge thicknesses are in the .020"-.022" range at the top of the bevel, with some less, and my Manix was around .023-.024" and 12.5 degrees per side, and that is a true tank of a knife with heavy duty written all over it and .155" stock. I have found them to be excellent cutters with good edge retention that are easily touched up by microbevelling on the sharpmaker without having to reprofile. For newbies and probably the vast majority of knife users who use a crock stick style set up (I can think of several friends and family members with crock sticks or the sharpmaker as their only means of sharpening) who don't reprofile this ease of sharpening is nice to have, not to mention the cutting ability. I of course reprofile just about anything I get, but there is a benefit to be had by the average consumer by going more acute. I find that a thinner edge bevel reduces the effort of a cut, whether that is my imagination or not I don't know, maybe those better educated than me can comment. Also, I haven't used any recent Bucks, but from what I understand their "Edge 2000" puts their edges at just under 15 per side, and their CATRA data showed 420 HC with that new edge outperforming BG-42 in edge retention at their older 20+ degree per side convexed edge angle. I have no clue what edge thicknesses they run.

I understand KAI is a business first and foremost, and your products do deliver good value and fit and finish from what I have seen, and they are built in the U.S. to boot. I understand my flaunting my love for ultra thin grinds may cloud what I was trying to say, which was that there are other companies using thinner and more acute profiles, like Spyderco, in steels less suited for thin grinds than 13C26, and the buyer is seeing tangible benefits in cutting ability and edge retention. Those knives are subject to the same abuse that KAI's products are IMO. Whether warrantee returns would skyrocket and cause prices to rise with a thinner and more acute edge I don't know, but from my personal experience I don't think your failure rate would skyrocket, especially since KAI uses so much 13C26. That is just my uneducated opinion.

Mike

 

[Thomas W]

Buck, Spyderco, CRK&T, Cold Steel, Fallkniven, Boye (production), Camillus etc. . The huge Cuda MAXX for example was way thinner and more acute at the edge. That described profile is just foolish for a small folder. It is completely absurd and anyone who argues it is necessary for abuse has no basis in reality. As I noted, that profile is even heavier than you would need on a 10" bowie if you were batoning it through knotty spruce with a framing hammer. You really want to argue this is the intended scope of work for a small folding knife.

-Cliff

Thanks Mike... umm I mean Cliff.

FYI, the only company you mentioned that is into volume is Buck Cliff. You also mention companies that are not even in the manufacturing business, some even out of business. Again you show your lack of wisdom and understanding when talking large quantities of knives.

Don't you have a question to answer earlier in this thread? Inquring minds want to know.

 

[FlyingMuskrat]

So Kershaw produces many more knives than CRK&T and Spyderco?

 

[Thomas W]

I was referring to Spyderco

I don't think the 2 companies (KAI & Spyderco) are comparable in terms manufacturing.

Sal and Spyderco are specialized in what they do, heck Sal is a darksider.
Spyderco is all about focused high end knives. The majority of their line is geared to perform. They cater to the knife crazies.

We are not that type of manufacturer. Placement with Kershaw Knives is everywhere. We cater to the masses. We work with price point pieces and do some limited higher end knives.

Both companies produce knives, after that our goals go seperate ways quickly.

Ultimately both companies are successful at what they do.

If you want to compare us, should the product be the final say, or should all of our strength's and weaknesses as an organization be taken into account as well?

Mike, do you feel specialized manufacturer's and volume manufacturer's should be judged head to head? or at that point are there other variables that need to brought into the equation? Can Toyota and Lotus really be compared as companies?

 

[Thomas W]

So Kershaw produces many more knives than CRK&T and Spyderco?

As manufacturer's we are not here to open our books for everyone to gander at, but there are some obvious brands that move volume vs. those that do not. Your local big box stores will show you the answer to the volume movers.

 

[FlyingMuskrat]

As manufacturer's we are not here to open our books for everyone to gander at, but there are some obvious brands that move volume vs. those that do not. Your local big box stores will show you the answer to the volume movers.

I wasn't really asking for numbers, just a general relationship, like "Yes, we make many more knives than they do." or "We make a fair number more than they do."

I didn't mean to pry.

 

[Thomas W]

Well those types of general size and numbers assessments between companies are really not appropriate on a public forum. At least IMO.

 

[STR]

Sometimes I think some people complain just to complain

I don't know about complaining per say but its obvious that the niche group of some are not as easy to please, or maybe I could just say it seems they are never pleased but I guess thats stretching it a bit. When I see the guys asking for thinner, and no offense to them or their reasoning for that, just pointing out the fact that when I see the members of the niche group that want thinner blade profiles and that shout the loudest about it, its obvious to me that even a company like Spyderco is not providing them everything they want because they are paying money to others to thin those down as well as having to do that to their Kershaws. I mean how many knives and brand names have we got a list of now that have been thinned down for you guys? I know I've read of Sebenzas, Spydercos, at least several models now, and Kershaws, also several models now among others.

Personally, I maybe need one paring knife thin blade in my collection of folders. I really doubt I'd be too interested in carrying one that often if it was as thin as some of the final edges I've read about here. I do agree that you can thin them down to a compromise level though that will both give better cutting and slicing performance without hurting edge holding or stability and approach pleasing those wanting some thinner blades and still give the guys happy with them the way they are a fine user though. .015 .020 right above the edge bevel is a fine thickness for a variety of work in this steel. If anyone wants them thinner than that they can just have it done aftermarket. Thats what I'd tell you if I were in Thom's shoes anyway.

STR

 

[gunmike1]

I don't think the 2 companies (KAI & Spyderco) are comparable in terms manufacturing.

Sal and Spyderco are specialized in what they do, heck Sal is a darksider.
Spyderco is all about focused high end knives. The majority of their line is geared to perform. They cater to the knife crazies.

We are not that type of manufacturer. Placement with Kershaw Knives is everywhere. We cater to the masses. We work with price point pieces and do some limited higher end knives.

Both companies produce knives, after that our goals go seperate ways quickly.

Ultimately both companies are successful at what they do.

If you want to compare us, should the product be the final say, or should all of our strength's and weaknesses as an organization be taken into account as well?

Mike, do you feel specialized manufacturer's and volume manufacturer's should be judged head to head? or at that point are there other variables that need to brought into the equation? Can Toyota and Lotus really be compared as companies?

It is hard to call Enduras, Delicas, Natives, D'Allara's, ect. specialized high end pieces in my opinion. The performance is high end, but not the price. They all come in a a similar price to many KAI pieces, though they use FRN (which I don't mind, but some hate) compared to SS, aluminum, or G-10 from similarly priced KAIs, and generally lockbacks for Spyderco vs. liner or frame locks for KAI. I find Spydercos in similar numbers to KAIs at local stores and internet retailers, though the big box stores have more KAIs. The overall products KAI produces have been high quality from what I have seen at a reasonable price, while the Spydercos are more pure cutting and utility oriented, also very high quality at a very reasonable price. Both companies have excellent customer service. Both have their place and appeal, I'm just giving what I consider constructive criticism that I feel would improve the performance of your product and possibly appeal to more "darksiders" in the process, all the while impressing your current customer base. I would consider Buck to be about as widely available as KAI products, and like I noted they also go more acute on their edges, it would be hard to call most Bucks a Lotus. Either way as long as KAI is making money and moving products with satisfied customers you shouldn't have to worry about us "darksiders" and our opinions. It's not like I have anything against KAI, I actually like several of your designs have some on my "to buy" list, I just think taking an edge geometry approach similar to Spyderco and Buck would make your products perform better and be better for the buyer without causing a flood of warrantee returns. Like I said though, I'm no business or warrantee expert, I just come from the perspective of a hobbyist/knife user.

Mike

 

[gunmike1]

I do agree that you can thin them down to a compromise level though that will both give better cutting and slicing performance without hurting edge holding or stability and approach pleasing those wanting some thinner blades and still give the guys happy with them the way they are a fine user though. .015 .020 right above the edge bevel is a fine thickness for a variety of work in this steel. If anyone wants them thinner than that they can just have it done aftermarket. Thats what I'd tell you if I were in Thom's shoes anyway.

STR

That around is the edge thickness I was suggesting in my last few posts.

Mike

 

[Kohai999]

Buck, Spyderco, CRK&T, Cold Steel, Fallkniven, Boye (production), Camillus etc. . The huge Cuda MAXX for example was way thinner and more acute at the edge. That described profile is just foolish for a small folder. It is completely absurd and anyone who argues it is necessary for abuse has no basis in reality. As I noted, that profile is even heavier than you would need on a 10" bowie if you were batoning it through knotty spruce with a framing hammer. You really want to argue this is the intended scope of work for a small folding knife.

-Cliff

Ok (deep breath) .....

Each company does things a different way....competition is good, right?

Agree that Kershaw/Kai has some issues with edge thickness on SOME of their knives, this is one of them. .30 IS thick, .15-.20 would be a good thickness to shoot for, a fair and reasonable compromise. Checked my Buck 110, Benchmade 710 and Benchmade 12400 and they all were on the .20ish side of thickness, everyone is being heard by Thomas on this end.

Cliff, calling the choices that a company makes "foolish" is the pot calling the kettle black, by very nature of the comment. It is not helpful or conducive to discussion. It is your opinion, and frankly, you have damaged your own credibility in this, and other threads so far.

Landes could be the new messiah with regard to steel research, but have not heard or read enough to absorb it all. My personal experiences with S30V have been inconclusive as to the superiority of this steel over others, but so has ZDP-189. While it takes a superior edge, and holds it a very long time, I have pitting issues with my William Henry paring knife, and had to send a ZDP Caly back to Spyderco because it was pitted out of the box. Crap happens.

Surmising and postulating about information that is not readily available(S30V stats, Kershaw's 55 gal drums of warranty returned knives) is pissing in the wind. Companies do what they do, because that is the way that they do it, until they change.

Thomas spends a lot of time here. I think that interaction with Forumites like Gunmike, STR, Thom Brogan, db, DOW, hob and others helps influence what goes on at Kershaw/Kai because there is direct feedback, criticism and evaluation that can be used in the improved evolution of both design and production methods. If it is valued by the Forumites to have this input then it should be approached with the idea of creating positive change, rather than using Thomas as a punching bag.

I personally own a lot of knives, and some from all the companies Cliff mentioned. Judging on ALL criteria(fit, finish, blade grinds, warranty....)I feel that Kershaw/Kai simply makes a better knife. Personally, put the Spyderco Police model in the all-time top 10, though, and have about 6 different variations.

Thomas and I have a good, enduring friendship, but this does not mean that we agree all of the time. Part of what allows us to agree to disagree is mutual respect and appreciation of the other party's position. If everybody can learn how to COMMUNICATE consistently, it will be better for the Forums, Kershaw/Kai, and the individuals involved with both.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[jaislandboy]

I don't think the 2 companies (KAI & Spyderco) are comparable in terms manufacturing.

Sal and Spyderco are specialized in what they do, heck Sal is a darksider.
Spyderco is all about focused high end knives. The majority of their line is geared to perform. They cater to the knife crazies.

We are not that type of manufacturer. Placement with Kershaw Knives is everywhere. We cater to the masses. We work with price point pieces and do some limited higher end knives.

Both companies produce knives, after that our goals go seperate ways quickly.

Ultimately both companies are successful at what they do....

I guess that's why a "knife crazy" individual like myself owns predominantly Spydercos.....
and why I fully support gunmike1's post requesting thinner factory edges... :thumbup:

But I can understand and respect your company's position as well, Thomas...
I also own perhaps 10 different Kershaws (Bump, Nakamura, Ti ZDP Leek, JYD1,2, Groove, etc) and they are fine products.... :thumbup:

IMHO I would venture that a good percentage of knife aficianado's (who are predominantly present on the various knifeforums).... are "into cutting performance" and a even smaller percentage are "steel-heads or junkies"...
but i also realize that knife afi's only represent a small (minute?) percentage of overall knife buying customers ...

 

[db]

IMHO I would venture that a good percentage of knife aficianado's (who are predominantly present on the various knifeforums).... are "into cutting performance"

It’s my guess that even on the forums most people are in the sharpened pry bar camp by a very large margin. Now what people want and what they are willing to pay for seem to be two different things. If a person wants a Krein grind on all their knives I think Tom would be happy to do that. To complain and or accuse a company of improper blade grinding because they are using a high edge stability steel really makes me ask, what does edge stability have to do with thickness like .02, .01, or even .005? Even more silly to me is the complainers regrind and thin the blades, then put a thinner relief edge grind on and then micro bevel with the Sharpmaker. All in the name of high edge stability. Well, from what I’ve been able to learn the Sharpmaker is at 15 degrees per side and the fine rods finish at an arguably 6 microns. At that angle and finish high wear steel like D2 is a better choice than 13C26. 13C26 reportedly really performs best at much lower angles and with a much higher polish. So do the complainers even really know what they want? Or is it just easier to accuse a factory of improper edges and blade grinds, and misuse of steel? That is not constructive, that is complaining. For me the facts are most everyone that has gotten and used a Kershaw are very happy with them. Those like myself who like thinner edges and thinner blade grinds, will customize any brand of knife we buy to how we like it. I do think that the suggestion of matching the edge grind to the Sharpmaker is a good one. But, what Sharpmaker angle, the 20 or 15? Remember a factory wants to sell the most amount of knives to the most people.