Intentionally Not Sharp?

To me, that always sounded like an excuse people make to defend their favorite makers of dull knives...

:thumbup:

Exactly.
...
I've never understood why some view new, high quality pocket knives with dull edges as acceptable, just because it's a pocket knife. A knife is a tool, and I expect a tool - especially an expensive tool, to come ready to use. I may still fine tune it a little bit, strop it to my satisfaction, whatever - but a knife should be shipped sharp, period.

A knife that is sharp upon arrival is certainly the standard for high-end fixed blade knives, and rightly so. Why there should be a different standard/expectation for high end pocket knives makes no sense to me.

And I don't believe for a minute that it has anything to do with "letting the user profile the knife how they would like." :rolleyes:

:thumbup: :thumbup:

The first time I ever heard the 'deliberately not sharp' line was in relation to Jimmy Lile's original 'First Blood' knife. Maybe he didn't want young Rambo wannabees hurting themselves by waving it around. For me, a blunt knife is always a disappointment.
 
Maybe it's just me but I've always bought a knife to cut something. Guess I'm one of those "gotta have it now" types.
 
... "People don't want sharp pocket knives...they will cut themselves." ...

there is perhaps some truth in this. *most* people are not used to sharp knives.
gave my father-in-law a swiss army knife for christmas. he recently remarked to me how really useful it has been but that he had nicked himself a couple of times because he isnt used to that sharp of a knife. it was right out of the blister pack; i didnt do anything to the edge at all. he isnt a doofus, he was a biology teacher and likes fishing and cooking so he has handled a knife before.
 
Well dave shirley sure did deliver knives that had obtuse edges and were dull. I thought it was because he was stingy and squeezed every dollar he could out of his customers. He also delivered knives that had gaps between scales and liners and said that made it more of an "authentic scagel." His redeeming quality was most of his patterns were direct copies of Scagels unlike the current Northwoods.

The only reason why any cutler doesn't put a good edge on a blade is economics. They might have some nice patter to blame it on the collector/customer or liability, but the real reason is to save money in production and QC inspection and rework.
 
I believe it use to be the standard that most wood carving knives came in dire need of a good sharpening. That is still the case with some makers, but most come sharp now from what I've seen. The makers that I buy from that pound their steel with a hammer deliver their knives (wood carving as well as their traditional hunting knives I'd imagine) very sharp and pretty much ready to be put into service. I say "pretty much" from the perspective of a sharpening hobbyist. If I didn't spend a bunch of money on sharpening stuff as well as time learning, I'd say most come sharp.

So far it's been my experience that modern pocket knives come with a decent, if obtuse, edge. Modern traditional knives, again, in my (admittedly very limited) experience, have come with edges that I consider dull. Well, except for the Case Sodbuster Jr., that had a decent edge that I immediately replaced. :)
 
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In regards to whether companies are doing this in order to be "historically correct" or because they want to "give the owner the opportunity to put the edge on it that he/she would want" (or worse - in order to save us from ourselves because "knives can be dangerous"), I would simply ask this - do any of the existing companies producing traditional pocket knives state this in any of their advertising, on their websites, etc. as something they are intentionally doing for any of the these reasons, or others?

Has anyone ever seen something to the effect of "We leave our edges dull on purpose"?

I certainly haven't, and I highly doubt that any of these companies would ever purposely state that publicly, which makes elaborate "behind the scenes" justifications for it rather dubious, imo.
 
In regards to whether companies are doing this in order to be "historically correct" or because they want to "give the owner the opportunity to put the edge on it that he/she would want" (or worse - in order to save us from ourselves because "knives can be dangerous"), I would simply ask this - do any of the existing companies producing traditional pocket knives state this in any of their advertising, on their websites, etc. as something they are intentionally doing for any of the these reasons, or others?

Has anyone ever seen something to the effect of "We leave our edges dull on purpose"?

I certainly haven't, and I highly doubt that any of these companies would ever purposely state that publicly, which makes elaborate "behind the scenes" justifications for it rather dubious, imo.

Great observation and pretty much says it all.
 
In regards to whether companies are doing this in order to be "historically correct" or because they want to "give the owner the opportunity to put the edge on it that he/she would want" (or worse - in order to save us from ourselves because "knives can be dangerous"), I would simply ask this - do any of the existing companies producing traditional pocket knives state this in any of their advertising, on their websites, etc. as something they are intentionally doing for any of the these reasons, or others?

Has anyone ever seen something to the effect of "We leave our edges dull on purpose"?

I certainly haven't, and I highly doubt that any of these companies would ever purposely state that publicly, which makes elaborate "behind the scenes" justifications for it rather dubious, imo.

....an excellent point. I don't think anyone would even say they leave their knives dull on purpose. I am just wondering if there ever was a time.
 
Interesting. Don't know if it is true but I wish all of them would do it.

I have no interest in carrying some else's edge. They ain't going to do it to my satisfaction anyway. What does it take on a normal sized traditional carbon steel blade with a good grind? 15, maybe 20 minutes to put an absolutely perfect reprofiled edge on it? Twice that on D2 if you take your time and are working with a thicker grind?

But I have stated this before and I am outnumbered. :)

But at least one of us doesn't consider factory edge to be either an indication of good or bad quality. The quality I look for on the bade is in the heat treat, the geometry, and the grind. The rest I can take care of easily enough.

Will
 
I believe I'm with DocP. I'm pleased to see a nice even grind on the edges, but like to do my own thing with it most of the time.
If I get a factory edge that just rolls hair off my forearm I'll leave it alone, but that's rare.

I never felt like a real knife guy until I could freehand sharpen my own knives to shaving sharp. To me, it's fundamental.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is there anything about shipping a knife sharp that precludes one from reprofiling it, if that's what they really want to do (other than an exceptionally thin grind)? If I ever received a new, high-end fixed blade knife with the sort of edge that my last Schatt & Morgan had on it, and then was told that it was on purpose, so that I could "profile it how I liked," I would promptly pack that knife up and send it back and look elsewhere. As was pointed out before - even Buck manages to ship a $40 knife with a wicked sharp edge. Is that because their users aren't as discerning as those of us who buy knives that cost 3 x that much?

For me, it doesn't have anything to do with my abilities to sharpen and reprofile, which I can certainly do, and have done many times. It has to do with my admittedly subjective opinion about how a knife should leave the manufacturer, if it is a company that takes pride in their work.
 
I never felt like a real knife guy until I could freehand sharpen my own knives to shaving sharp. To me, it's fundamental.

Knife companies can't sustain themselves solely on sales to "real knife guys." The majority of folks out there, those not registered on BFC, need knives sharpened for them.

- Christian
 
I believe I'm with DocP. I'm pleased to see a nice even grind on the edges, but like to do my own thing with it most of the time.
If I get a factory edge that just rolls hair off my forearm I'll leave it alone, but that's rare.

I never felt like a real knife guy until I could freehand sharpen my own knives to shaving sharp. To me, it's fundamental.

Jeff, I'm pretty much with you, BUT I still think that a knife that is made in America and claims a long tradition of making slipjoints (Case, Queen, GEC) should be sending their knives sharp out of the box.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is there anything about shipping a knife sharp that precludes one from reprofiling it, if that's what they really want to do (other than an exceptionally thin grind)? If I ever received a new, high-end fixed blade knife with the sort of edge that my last Schatt & Morgan had on it, and then was told that it was on purpose, so that I could "profile it how I liked," I would promptly pack that knife up and send it back and look elsewhere. As was pointed out before - even Buck manages to ship a $40 knife with a wicked sharp edge. Is that because their users aren't as discerning as those of us who buy knives that cost 3 x that much?

For me, it doesn't have anything to do with my abilities to sharpen and reprofile, which I can certainly do, and have done many times. It has to do with my admittedly subjective opinion about how a knife should leave the manufacturer, if it is a company that takes pride in their work.

I agree completely.
 
I believe it use to be the standard that most carving knives came in dire need of a good sharpening.

I'm not sure where this was, but it was never the case with the Sheffield firms. Carving knives were sold sharp, and could be kept sharp with the steel which almost always accompanied them.

In regards to whether companies are doing this in order to be "historically correct" or because they want to "give the owner the opportunity to put the edge on it that he/she would want" (or worse - in order to save us from ourselves because "knives can be dangerous"), I would simply ask this - do any of the existing companies producing traditional pocket knives state this in any of their advertising, on their websites, etc. as something they are intentionally doing for any of the these reasons, or others?

Has anyone ever seen something to the effect of "We leave our edges dull on purpose"?

I certainly haven't, and I highly doubt that any of these companies would ever purposely state that publicly, which makes elaborate "behind the scenes" justifications for it rather dubious, imo.

Excellent point IMO. I've certainly never seen knives advertised as intentionally dull, but I've received plenty of dull knives, which were advertised as being "razor sharp" and suchlike.

Knife companies can't sustain themselves solely on sales to "real knife guys." The majority of folks out there, those not registered on BFC, need knives sharpened for them.

Yes, and I would think that the average customer, faced with a blunt knife at point of sale, would not wish to purchase it. Of course many knives are now purchased over the internet, which means the edge can't be inspected beforehand.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is there anything about shipping a knife sharp that precludes one from reprofiling it, if that's what they really want to do (other than an exceptionally thin grind)? If I ever received a new, high-end fixed blade knife with the sort of edge that my last Schatt & Morgan had on it, and then was told that it was on purpose, so that I could "profile it how I liked," I would promptly pack that knife up and send it back and look elsewhere. As was pointed out before - even Buck manages to ship a $40 knife with a wicked sharp edge. Is that because their users aren't as discerning as those of us who buy knives that cost 3 x that much?

For me, it doesn't have anything to do with my abilities to sharpen and reprofile, which I can certainly do, and have done many times. It has to do with my admittedly subjective opinion about how a knife should leave the manufacturer, if it is a company that takes pride in their work.

Certainly could not agree more with that. Not only does it make perfect sense, but we all know that if they could sell a feature like most manufacturers do these days, (that's right folks, we are now offering cars with NO tires on them so you can design the ride to your own personal specifications!) , in other words, if less product for more money becomes a new "feature", they would certainly do it.

I know that some feel that spending hours reprofiling to a useful edge, resetting grinds and sharpening build a bonding experience between them and their inanimate object. After testing out how easy it is to put nice razor sharp convex edge on a knife with a slack belt, it makes me even more surprised that manufacturers don't have that extra minute or less per blade to spare to make their products first class. It is simply too easy to do.

I have very different memories of buying knives in the '60s and '70 than many around here do. Back then, I bought only Case, Boker and Buck. All of them came sharp out of the box. Granted, none of them were collectors, but all were work/utility patterns, almost all some variation of the stockman. All were ready to take out of the box on the way to the truck when leaving the store, and drop in your pocket for come what may.

And think how important that was in those days. At the house, we had a coarse and a fine Arkanas stone. That was it! The only other component was a can of 3 in 1 oil and a rag. Now we can reprofile or re-edge something as soft as 1095 with a guided system or a powered system that employs multiple grits and polishes in just a few minutes. But back then, we all labored free hand over stones for hours to get the edge we wanted. Literally hours... that was why you didn't lend your knife and only used it as a cutting tool. Sharpening was quite the skill, and some of my friends paid me to keep their blades sharp. Others just tossed a knife in the drawer and left it when it became so doggone dull it wouldn't cut anything. I had a friend that confessed to me that he had 3 Buck 110s in his drawer at one time as well as a few others because he couldn't get them sharp. Got him a Lansky, and he sharpened everything he could get in the jaws.

I cannot imagine anyone, ever, telling my Dad or Grandad that a factory fresh knife was left dull on purpose so that they could take it home and put a few hours into it to make it a useable knife. I can hear my grandfather growling now " I thought I was buying a knife, not a cold chisel ". He would never have stood for it.

My personal experience is indeed different, and thankfully no one did me the favor of selling me a poorly ground, unsharpened knife and passed it on as "what I wanted" without asking me. Using that logic, soon manufacturers will be selling knives that you grind yourself from a flat blank so you can decide if you want full flat grind, hollow grind, saber grind, or anything else you want. Then you can fully customize the knife with a V edge, convex edge, micro beveled, stropped or unstropped as you desire.

My American made Kershaws (got a few) all came razor sharp. As did the two Spydercos. All have significantly harder/tougher steel than 1095, which I would think would require more skill to sharpen. Some of the Chinese knives I have purchased or have been gifted came with sharp to super sharp edges out of the box. My last two Carl Schliepers (Eye Brand) came respectably sharp, as did my Bulldog sodbuster.

Head and hands sharper than the brand names favored here. Since it is so dang easy to profile an edge with a slack belt, my conclusion from many years ago still stands for me. New knives don't come sharp because the manufacturers are too lazy to put the last three minutes into the knife they should to get a great edge.

We all know this isn't the end of this discussion, or even the beginning of the end. (*tip of the hat to WC!*) There are those that are comfortable paying more for less, and there are those that are more comfortable getting what they pay for. If I buy a piece of kitchen cutlery, it is always sharp, so why not my pocket knives?

Robert
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is there anything about shipping a knife sharp that precludes one from reprofiling it, if that's what they really want to do (other than an exceptionally thin grind)?

No, but unless they put your preferred angle on it you are going to have to reprofile anyway. And that means steel wasted. A lot of it if they put a more aggressive angle on it and you don't want a compound edge on a traditional knife. And if it ain't aggressive you end up with what they put out nowadays anyway. Why bother? Just let me do it myself. I'm going to anyway.

If I ever received a new, high-end fixed blade knife with the sort of edge that my last Schatt & Morgan had on it, and then was told that it was on purpose, so that I could "profile it how I liked," I would promptly pack that knife up and send it back and look elsewhere....

Note that I said 'normal' sized traditional in my post. I never said anything about thicker ground non-traditionals or fixed blades. Especially ones with higher end steel. In those cases a reprofile job is a lot bigger. In some cases it requires specialized tools. If the company wants to do a basic shoulder set on those that is fine with me. I'm still going to reprofile it and sharpen it. There is no way in this world I'm walking into the woods with a factory sharpened knife. No way.

Like I said, I am outnumbered. And that is OK. I'm not saying my way is the only way. But I still don't consider a factory edge to be either a sign or good or bad quality. Traditional pocket knives with traditional steels ain't gonna hold that edge long anyway. It's got to be sharpened soon and I am going to do a much better job of it than they will.

Will
 
Makers today don't ship knives intentionally blunt, nor is it in the small disclaimer on their site somewhere. But I think in their long list of criteria, upgrading a utility edge to one that has a small chance of being all things to all people is probably relatively low. Would it be great if every knife had a perfect edge, no gaps, no play - but great walk / talk, etc.? Sure. Is a less than stellar edge a deal breaker for those that would otherwise love the product? Doubtful. If it were we would all be in trouble on slipjoints these days.

It would be great if every knife we pulled from the box / tube came out simply perfect (for our individual tastes). And there is no reason for an actually dull knife to be shipped from the factory. But, for those that know exactly what edge they want but argue that of the hundreds of times they will sharpen that knife, the first time should not be upon arrival - we are looking for something negative pretty hard. That's like me saying that I bought a pickup the other day and the gas tank was only half full. In the past they filled it up when you bought one, but I think it is less of a truck since I had to fill it up right after purchase. [ they didn't do a very good job washing it either ]

Everybody deserves to get exactly what they want for their hard earned dollar, and there is no doubt that regardless of what they say on tv - prices are going up. But I just wish that every problem I found with knives (or life itself) from this point on was as simple as putting another edge on - regardless of original price.

Disclaimer: I take pictures with all blades open and many times when I have 50 on a table at a time do not give them the respect they deserve. And I have spilled my blood even on these stinkin' butter knives ;)
 
But I just wish that every problem I found with knives (or life itself) from this point on was as simple as putting another edge on - regardless of original price.

I think that's my point exactly, Mike. It's not that I'm "looking hard for something to be negative about," it's that from my point of view, a knife arriving sharp, and with a good edge, is a pretty simple and basic thing to expect, all things and all the other attention to details, considered.
 
Everybody deserves to get exactly what they want for their hard earned dollar, and there is no doubt that regardless of what they say on tv - prices are going up. But I just wish that every problem I found with knives (or life itself) from this point on was as simple as putting another edge on - regardless of original price.

I think the important thing is to accept the industry for what it has become. Everyone has their favorite brand, and it seems they are staunch defenders of that brand. And a lot of folks here are quite a bit more well heeled than I am, so they look at things differently.

For me to spend $125 on a knife, that is a real decision. For most here, although there is the Opinel/Mora tribesmen here as well, that isn't much. I see posts over and over that say folks simply like a different color of scales on their favorite pattern and they will buy all of the knives in that series for $750 just to have the color variants. Good for them, I say!

I agree with Mike, on one point for sure. With the problems I have had with the last traditional I bought, I would be glad if the edge was the only problem. I could fix that.

But I purchased a Queen stockman that had a pathetically weak spring on the spey blade. I thought it might move more easily and close better with use and some good lubrication. However, it went the other way. The SLIGHTEST bit of pocket lint will allow the spey to easily stick open, and it is now a push shut blade on the knife. No sign of the tiniest click to signal it is closed. It only works when it is perfectly cleaned out after a good round of maintenance, so it sits in the box of knives I never carry. It is of no use as a work knife to me (which means it is of no use to me) as I am always reaching into my pocket for a knife, and don't want to wonder if it wandered open while I am trying to get it out. I can't stand that knife, and as pretty as it is, I wish I had sent it back. I am so ticked off now every time I see it I want to hit it with a hammer.

So I am on board with accepting, but not liking screwdriver like edges on knives if that is the worst thing wrong with the knife. Besides, no knife manufacturer ever asked me my opinion on the subject anyway.

Robert
 
Here's a link to a relevant concept involving one of the most traditional of Japanese blades- ubuha

Katana are repolished many times throughout their useful life.

With enough polishings at some point enough metal will have been removed that the soft core steel will show through the sides or the hardened edge will be polished down to the softer steel above the hardening line (hamon). The sword is then considered past its useful life.

So when a newly made katana is first polished (sharpened), a portion of the sword edge nearest the tang is left unsharpened to allow some extra steel to remain and allow for some degree of prolonged life.
 
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