Intentionally Not Sharp?

[knarfeng]

Without being an expert in the field, but still with a general knowledge of manufacturing, I would guess that it isn't merely the time, it's also the wear on the equipment. Sanding belts cost money and you have to spend time ($)to replace them.

As far as the video, don't forget that
*Tru-Sharp is free of carbides, so it grinds easily and quickly
*Case runs Tru-Sharp reasonably soft, again grinds easily
*and Case blades tend to be pretty thin, so there is not as much metal to remove.

 

[midnight flyer]

I've had friends that used the services of the gun show sharpeners. In more than one instance it took me considerable pains to undo the damage.

I have no doubt you know guys that have had that experience. I do too! Please understand that I wasn't holding out ALL gun show sharpeners as experts in the field of edging knives.

But the guys I am talking about are talented, and are full time sharpeners. They have it together and they put excellent bevels and edges on just about anything that needs it. But the old guy that was there doing sharpening on paper wheels before these two was asked not to come back because he was inept and burned a few too many blades. I guess it is like anything else, there are good folks and not so good folks in any trade or endeavor.

I trust Mr. Russell when he says that "sharpening is one of the most expensive steps". He ought to know.

He should indeed. I can't think of anyone around here that has more manufacturing experience than he does, and I think it is tremendously important to note that he makes the effort to send out sharp knives (as noted above) when he sends out his product. To me, AGR kind of gives the other big names something to shoot for.

Without being an expert in the field, but still with a general knowledge of manufacturing, I would guess that it isn't merely the time, it's also the wear on the equipment. Sanding belts cost money and you have to spend time ($)to replace them.

As far as the video, don't forget that
*Tru-Sharp is free of carbides, so it grinds easily and quickly
*Case runs Tru-Sharp reasonably soft, again grinds easily
*and Case blades tend to be pretty thin, so there is not as much metal to remove.

You know, that makes a lot of sense in its own way. A couple of sharpening stations mean two more folks in the factory with wages and benefits, two machines, and the consumables including machine maintenance, belts, electricity, compounds, etc.

Hmmmmmm......

You could be on to something. Sure hope Mr. Russell comes back to let us know. As I posted earlier in this thread, the knives I have bought from him have all come sharp, so he obviously has that situation in hand and by sending out sharp knives, has let us know his personal thoughts on that issue.

Robert

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Without being an expert in the field, but still with a general knowledge of manufacturing, I would guess that it isn't merely the time, it's also the wear on the equipment. Sanding belts cost money and you have to spend time ($)to replace them.

As far as the video, don't forget that
*Tru-Sharp is free of carbides, so it grinds easily and quickly
*Case runs Tru-Sharp reasonably soft, again grinds easily
*and Case blades tend to be pretty thin, so there is not as much metal to remove.

These are all good points. I haven't used belt grinders at all, but did wonder how much the wear & cost of the belts impacts the overall sharpening costs. The thought occurred to me also, that in spite of how 'quick' they might be able to sharpen each blade (seconds, or maybe up to a minute or so), the process itself likely yields little return on their investment in it. A 'new' edge on a new knife going out the door to the buyer likely won't last long anyway, either because it gets quickly abused and destroyed, or because of all the others out there like us, who are likely to completely alter/re-bevel the edge anyway, as soon as they get the knife in-hand. I also wonder how many knives get regularly turned around for factory re-sharpening, which takes personnel time away from regular production operations. I'd bet they're not making much direct profit on that, if any.

And, most of us are aware that 'fast' sharpening doesn't always hit the mark anyway. We've all seen our share of less-than-ideal edge grinds on factory knives, not to mention the big, honkin' burrs that are often left on Case's Tru-Sharp blades, after a very quick & aggressive pass on a coarse-grit belt sharpener. I'm sure if Case or any other manufacturer took the same extra time that I do with my own knives, just in cleaning up the burrs on Tru-Sharp blades, their sharpening costs would skyrocket.


David

 

[jackknife]

Apparently Victorinox has figured out how to sharpen knives at low cost. I odn't ever recall getting a dull Vic out of the box. I may have had an Opinel or two that was less than stellar, but most were very sharp. Both of the Queen knives I bought years back came with butter knife edges in D2. Not fun. Maybe they all need to take lessons from Victorinox?

 

[parbajtor]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is there anything about shipping a knife sharp that precludes one from reprofiling it, if that's what they really want to do (other than an exceptionally thin grind)? If I ever received a new, high-end fixed blade knife with the sort of edge that my last Schatt & Morgan had on it, and then was told that it was on purpose, so that I could "profile it how I liked," I would promptly pack that knife up and send it back and look elsewhere. As was pointed out before - even Buck manages to ship a $40 knife with a wicked sharp edge. Is that because their users aren't as discerning as those of us who buy knives that cost 3 x that much?

For me, it doesn't have anything to do with my abilities to sharpen and reprofile, which I can certainly do, and have done many times. It has to do with my admittedly subjective opinion about how a knife should leave the manufacturer, if it is a company that takes pride in their work.

Hang on, though. While I believe that a knife leaving the factory should be at least able to cut something (otherwise it's not a knife) there are degrees of sharpness involved. An edge that can standing cut a cigarette paper would very quickly be useless if used to cut carpet tiles or even skin a rabbit. The best edge needs to be matched to the main use of the knife. Particularly with factory knives, the maker won't often be talking to the customer to find out which edge best suits his useage. So in the majority of cases, whichever edge the knife comes with, won't be suitable for the customer, so then the factory owner thinks "well hey, if it's gonna be wrong anyway, why not save the money from not sharpening it in the first place." Certainly I believe that's what happened in the "glory days" of Sheffield Steel before they utterly ruined their reputation by trading on their name alone.

 

[Hammer67]

So in the majority of cases, whichever edge the knife comes with, won't be suitable for the customer, so then the factory owner thinks "well hey, if it's gonna be wrong anyway, why not save the money from not sharpening it in the first place."

I think we're flogging a dead horse at this point, so I'll just say that I'll never buy into the notion of, "well, there's no way to know what kind of edge the customer might want, so we just won't bother putting a decent edge on the knife at all."

And again, as has already been pointed out, this notion would never fly in any other realm of the current knife world, except among a very limited number of fans of traditional folders. With any other sort of quality knives, it would be considered totally unacceptable, and that knife maker would quickly find their business drying up.

 

[herisson]

Any knife should be sold with an EVEN GROUND CUTTING EDGE.... this is apparently already too much to ask from many current makers.
The sharpness (and final angle) can be left over to the final owner. "Make a knife your own" is correct as long as the maker provides the correct base. That's where the gripe is for most of us, I suppose. Because we like to sharpen and baby them to great lengths but we do not all own a belt sander to CREATE a CORRECT EDGE. Not yelling, just saying...

 

[Jack Black]

I think we're flogging a dead horse at this point, so I'll just say that I'll never buy into the notion of, "well, there's no way to know what kind of edge the customer might want, so we just won't bother putting a decent edge on the knife at all."

And again, as has already been pointed out, this notion would never fly in any other realm of the current knife world, except among a very limited number of fans of traditional folders. With any other sort of quality knives, it would be considered totally unacceptable, and that knife maker would quickly find their business drying up.

I 100% agree with this, and think it's a shame people are so willing to accept mediocrity, and a decline in standards which, if accepted, will only lead to a further decline in quality.

 

[akadave2]

So...leaving the "dead horse" behind. Who has purchased a dull knife of recent manufacture and what was the brand?

 

[Hammer67]

Of recent traditional purchases, the Queens and Schatt & Morgans I've bought would be the standouts for arriving with a horrible edge that required a fair bit of work to become usable.

On the positive side, traditional knives I have bought that came with a great edge and sharp?

Most of the GEC's I've purchased, and every Bark River, Boker, Northwoods, Blind Horse, Grohmann, Buck, Scagel...

 

[Jack Black]

In the past six months (so far as I can remember):

Arthur Wright: Dull, but ground OK.
Boker: Not quite sharp, but ground OK.
Case: Sharp and ground OK.
GEC: Dull, but ground OK.
Hartkopf: Sharp (Just bit me!) and ground OK except for a rounded point.
Imperial/Shrade: Sharp and ground OK.
Maserin - Sharp and ground OK.
Queen: Not quite sharp, but ground OK.
Robert Klaas/Antonini: Sharp and ground OK.
Plus a lot of old Sheffield knives, many of which had terrible things done to their edges by former owners!

Edit - That's maybe a bit unfair on the Arthur Wright knife, it did cut paper actually, but it was for Woodrow, so he'd have to judge.

 

[Will Power]

OK I'll play:

Most Queen D2 blades are blunt on arrival, but not always (so sometimes they bother..)

Most GEC are sharp, less so the stainless ones.

With CASE it's the other way round the Surgical is usually sharp-burred and the cv often bluntish

Böker carbon, good results.

Trevor Ablett, very blunt, lot of work needed

Opinel, seldom bluntish.

Fontenille-Pataud, impressively sharp.so it should be at that price.

Moki & other Japanese make, very sharp indeed

RR I have to say is almost always stunningly sharp.

I really do have difficulty in believing knives were sent out intentionally dull, I think it could discourage buyers for life! More like "they won't really complain, fingers crossed"

 

[DrPenguin]

Bought a wonderful Bark River last year. It was nominally sharp to the untrained eye but in reality the edge was quite a mess and because of this it wouldn't hold an edge for long. In the end I just went ahead and put a regular bevel that came close to matching the convex grind, maybe a tick more acute. Stropped it well and moved on. As time goes back it will regain the convex edge but it will take a while and that's ok with me.

Both of the GECs I've bought in the last year or so came with what we'll call factory sharp edges.... which lasted as long as it took me to cut the shoulders and reprofile them. One was thin and easy the other was a bit thicker and took a while longer. Both are wonderful knives.

Will

 

[coffeecup]

So...leaving the "dead horse" behind. Who has purchased a dull knife of recent manufacture and what was the brand?

Queen (actually a Schatt & Morgan, it had a bonus uneven blade grind) and CSC (not totally "dull" but wouldn't cut up the box it was shipped in).

 

[pmew]

OK I'll play:

Most Queen D2 blades are blunt on arrival, but not always (so sometimes they bother..)

Most GEC are sharp, less so the stainless ones.

With CASE it's the other way round the Surgical is usually sharp-burred and the cv often bluntish

Böker carbon, good results.

Trevor Ablett, very blunt, lot of work needed

Opinel, seldom bluntish.

Fontenille-Pataud, impressively sharp.so it should be at that price.

Moki & other Japanese make, very sharp indeed

RR I have to say is almost always stunningly sharp.

I really do have difficulty in believing knives were sent out intentionally dull, I think it could discourage buyers for life! More like "they won't really complain, fingers crossed"

The RR toothpick I got for my fiancé was the sharpest traditional I have ever received out of the box.

This year

Trevor Ablett Barlow - dull and ground poor and uneven

GEC x 2 (#68 and #61) - dull but ground ok

Opinel #6 x 2 - very sharp and with good flat grind and very slight secondary bevel

Case peanut cv x 2 - one sharp and one dull but both ground ok

Rough Rider toothpick - extremely sharp and well ground

Vic Climber - sharp and well ground

Custom Ferraby - razor sharp stropped edge and perfect convex grind

When you go custom you get what you pay for I find, the RR was a rabbit in a hat I must admit, I did not see it coming!

Paul

 

[Hammer67]

Bought a wonderful Bark River last year. It was nominally sharp to the untrained eye but in reality the edge was quite a mess and because of this it wouldn't hold an edge for long.
Will

Will -

Out of curiosity, was it a new BR, or an older one? Convex edge, I take it?

 

[richstag]

Bark river sends out some sharp knives just by nature they should be sharp. Most are full convex zero edge. The ones I received were sharp and clean edges. Sure they could be even better, but mine were far ahead of any other production knives I have held. Sharpening a full convex knife correctly is very easy but you have to have the right set up.

 

[richstag]

I only buy 1x42 belts and to get good quality belts its VERY expensive in my opinion. Now I m sure a company can get some inside bulk discounts, but belts are not cheap and the most important thing I learned is to use belts like they are free. Meaning, don't let them get worn where they no longer cut to their best efficiency. Some belts last longer. I know you love to read, David, so I thought you might enjoy the following quoted information,

Open Coat vs. Closed Coat Abrasives

You will find abrasives listed as either open or closed coat. Open coat has less abrasive on the surface to reduce clogging from materials. This is highly desirable in specific applications even though you might think you will get more out of a closed coat abrasive. If open coat only has 50% to 70% surface coverage, Closed coat has more than 70% surface coverage is better suited for metal or glass. As a general rule, inexpensive belts, especially AO belts, are open coat.



Bonding

Abrasive belts use different types of bonding to hold the abrasive material to the backing belt. Some bonding materials are waterproof, some are not. The difference in technology between bonding agents is as significant as the abrasive material.



Backing Material

Belt and sheet backing material varies in stiffness and water resistance. A J-Flex belt is very flexible and is used in the slack belt attachment. The J-Flex belt will roll around contours. A Y or X weight belt is heavy and stiff. There are several different kinds of backing material. Generally cloth backing is used on better quality belts, paper on cheaper. It is good to know if a belt is water resistant or not.



Friability

All abrasives wear and break down as they are being used. The measure of this trait is called Friability and is designed into abrasives. You want highly friable (easier to break down) abrasives in wood and other soft materials. When grinding metal, you want materials that don’t wear and break down so quickly.



Grit size standards:

To make things even more confusing, there are at least three ‘standards’ for measuring grit size. They are the US based CAMI, Micron and FEPA scales. Most abrasives manufactured in the U.S. use the CAMI standard or just commonly called “grit”. Engineered abrasives typically use the Micron basis which generally has a very small tolerance of variation to the grit size. Many abrasives also use FEPA, an international based standard commonly noted by “P” rating such as P100 grit. None of these standards match up exactly. It is important that you know which standard abrasive you are using when you mix belt types and brands. There are at least a dozen other grit measurements used around the world. You will generally run into just 3 of them in the USA. They are “grit”, Pxxx grit and Micron. By far the commonly used is plain old grit.



Abrasive material:



AO or Alumina Oxide: Commonly found in wood working abrasives. It is usually on the very low end of quality and price. AO belts wear out quickly when used for metal but are very appropriate for shaping and sanding handle material or even leather. Usually brown or sand in color and typically highly friable which means it breaks up easily and exposes new sharp edges.



SC or Silicon Carbide: Usually black or gray in color. You will often find this in wet/dry sand paper marketed toward the automotive body repair market. Often used on metal or paint. It is more friable than AO and wears very quickly. SC is most often consumed in sheet form. It is not commonly found in belts.



AZ or Alumina Zirconia: Typically referred to simply as Zirc belts. This is very hard stuff and is used in better or high quality belts. The downside to using belts with abrasive this hard is that you have to use a fair amount of pressure to break the material down to expose fresh, sharp edges. This isn’t usually a problem grinding knife blanks, especially with the harder super steels used in today’s knives. The low friability is a problem grinding or sanding wood or other natural material. Zirc or Ceramic belts are recommended for knife grinding. They are more expensive but will out last several AO belts.



Cork Belts: These belts have a thick surface of cork bonded to a belt backing. AO is embedded into the cork to provide a grinding surface that has some ‘give’ to it but will still grind or polish, depending on the grit size.



Ceramic: A man made material just about as hard as diamonds in some cases. Ceramics are top of the line in metal grinding abrasives but most experienced knife grinders consider them worth the expense. Ceramic belts are more than just natural material glued to a belt. These abrasives are designed from the bottom up for friability, uniform grain or grit size, cooler grinding temperatures and very long life. A ceramic belt will out last several AO belts and while they are often 3 or 4 times higher in price than an AO belt, they will almost always out last those 3 or 4 belts and provide better performance. These belts are as hard as they get abrasive wise but also have different levels of friability designed into them for various applications. If you find ceramic belts don’t stay sharp as long as you think they should, increase the pressure of your grinding application to break up the ceramic material and expose fresh, new sharp edges. A quality ceramic belt is usually the most expensive belt initially but ultimately the cheapest belt due to its long life and very consistent performance.



Engineered Abrasives: These premium belts are designed for specific applications. They have very uniform abrasive material and can go to very small grit size. Norton Norax belts are an excellent quality belt using engineered abrasives that are as small as 5x microns or about 1200 SAE grit. Norax are exceptionally good metal finishing belts but are nearly worthless on any other material as they release dark gray abrasive dust that tends to stain anything other than metal.



Other types of Belts:



Non-Woven: These belts are used to de-burr metal edges or to provide a uniform scratch pattern. Most people are familiar with 3M brand Scotch Brite pads and essentially that is a non-woven abrasive. These are commonly used by knife makers to put a satin finish on knife blades. These belts are often found in coarse, medium, fine and extra fine. The coarse belts will actually remove steel (albeit very slowly) while the finer ‘grits’ tend to polish metal. These are for metal use only. These generally cost from $16 to $30 depending on the brand and application. Hint: Don’t pay $30.



Leather Belts: These are just what you think they are. They are loop of leather in the form of a belt. They are used by some people as power leather strops after they have had some very fine abrasive compound added to the surface. These are hard to find already made. I’ve seen them go for as much as $60. Consider buying a 2”x72” strip of leather and making your own for $20.



Felt belts: These are belts made from the same material as felt. They are fairly thick at approximately ¼” thick. These almost always have buffing compound applied to them and are used for polishing metal. These are expensive and hard to find. This money is better spent on an actual buffer and buffing wheels.



Now the comment/question is: “That’s all great but what should I use?”

The answer is, it depends.

I grind knives from thicker than average stock (in the .180 to .2+ range) so I start with a big grit and take off 80% using it. I begin with a 40grit Blaze belt to do the heavy lifting. I grind at full speed initially. Mistakes are easy to fix here and I remove as much metal as I can. When I have 80% to 90% of the metal removed, I switch to a 120grit Blaze belt and slow the grinder down a bit. I shape the blade to 90% to 95% of what I want it to end up being. I make sure and remove every bit of 40 grit grinding marks as I usually take blades to a high mirror polish. Even if you don’t grind to a high polish, you always want to remove every bit of the last grit marks.

When I’m done with the 120 Blaze, I switch to 100x Norax belts. The Saint-Gobain (Norton Abrasives) engineers say this belt is equal to a 120 grit. From my experience it works out to a 180 to 200 grit. I make sure and grind away every bit of the 120 Blaze grit marks and finalize all metal removal with this belt. I want all the grind lines in place and edge thickness of the blade right where it needs to be when I am done with this belt. The remaining belts I follow this 100x with are all just to improve the finish. The next Norax belt I use is a 65x and again a bit slower on the grinder. Mistakes here are frustrating and a slower grinder makes smaller mistakes. All previous grit marks have to be gone. You will not spend a lot of time on the remaining belts but skipping one will add a lot of time to get a nice finish. I am not trying to remove a lot of metal, I am improving the finish at with this grit and smaller. If I want a nice satin finish, I stop with this belt. My next belts are: 45x, 16x and finally a 5x. These work out to a 240, 600, 800 and 1300 grit respectively. I finish with just a minute or two under a sewn cotton buff wheel with green chrome to give the blade a little color. If you pay attention to the details, you will have a high mirror finish at this point.



If you are grinding .140” to .120”, consider starting with a 60grit belt or even an 80 grit belt. If you are grinding under .10”, 80 grit will go a little slower but you will have more control. Sharp belts will take metal off quickly and you don’t need much bigger than 80 grit when you are grinding thin blade stock. You will probably find 120 grit is the belt you tend to use the most of. 120 is just a good all around grit to use for touch ups and gives you control when shaping your blade.

These are all good points. I haven't used belt grinders at all, but did wonder how much the wear & cost of the belts impacts the overall sharpening costs. The thought occurred to me also, that in spite of how 'quick' they might be able to sharpen each blade (seconds, or maybe up to a minute or so), the process itself likely yields little return on their investment in it. A 'new' edge on a new knife going out the door to the buyer likely won't last long anyway, either because it gets quickly abused and destroyed, or because of all the others out there like us, who are likely to completely alter/re-bevel the edge anyway, as soon as they get the knife in-hand. I also wonder how many knives get regularly turned around for factory re-sharpening, which takes personnel time away from regular production operations. I'd bet they're not making much direct profit on that, if any.

And, most of us are aware that 'fast' sharpening doesn't always hit the mark anyway. We've all seen our share of less-than-ideal edge grinds on factory knives, not to mention the big, honkin' burrs that are often left on Case's Tru-Sharp blades, after a very quick & aggressive pass on a coarse-grit belt sharpener. I'm sure if Case or any other manufacturer took the same extra time that I do with my own knives, just in cleaning up the burrs on Tru-Sharp blades, their sharpening costs would skyrocket.


David

Also, for the 'fast sharpening' I sort of agree. A person would be very hard pressed to rival a good edge off a belt system executed by someone that knows how to do it.

Kevin

 

[pmang6]

The term dull is kinda relative some think a knife that can easily slice through paper is dull and some think a blade that won't put a mark in cardboard is razor....

 

[midnight flyer]

I think we're flogging a dead horse at this point, so I'll just say that I'll never buy into the notion of, "well, there's no way to know what kind of edge the customer might want, so we just won't bother putting a decent edge on the knife at all."

And again, as has already been pointed out, this notion would never fly in any other realm of the current knife world, except among a very limited number of fans of traditional folders. With any other sort of quality knives, it would be considered totally unacceptable, and that knife maker would quickly find their business drying up.

I 100% agree with this, and think it's a shame people are so willing to accept mediocrity, and a decline in standards which, if accepted, will only lead to a further decline in quality.

Wow.... I don't know which quote I like better. Both are SO true. Both succinct, both spot on the money.

Robert