Intentionally Not Sharp?

[Jack Black]

Excellent debate gentlemen, nice to see things discussed so lucidly and politely :thumbup:

I reckon most of us have different ideas about how we like to polish our shoes, about how we apply the polish, what sort of shine we like (if any), and what type of polish we use. It doesn't take long to polish a pair of shoes, but everyone expects them to be already polished when they buy them. Otherwise they'd think the manufacturer was just taking the rise out of them.

 

[JSMcustoms]

I've got an old Schrade slip joint that's purposely not sharp at all. I use it to clean out from under my finger nails. Everything else I own is far too sharp to even think about doing that with.

 

[Omega Leather Works]

I'm not sure where this was, but it was never the case with the Sheffield firms. Carving knives were sold sharp, and could be kept sharp with the steel which almost always accompanied them.



Excellent point IMO. I've certainly never seen knives advertised as intentionally dull, but I've received plenty of dull knives, which were advertised as being "razor sharp" and suchlike.



Yes, and I would think that the average customer, faced with a blunt knife at point of sale, would not wish to purchase it. Of course many knives are now purchased over the internet, which means the edge can't be inspected beforehand.

Steel? I think I may have confused my post by leaving out the "wood". Sorry, I meant wood carving knives. Sometimes I forget that there are those other carving knives, the ones meant to carve animal flesh.

Great discussion btw guys.

 

[okbohn]

Disclaimer: I take pictures with all blades open and many times when I have 50 on a table at a time do not give them the respect they deserve. And I have spilled my blood even on these stinkin' butter knives

I have shed gallons of blood over the years on knives from every maker with every kind of edge. I feel your pain.

 

[knarfeng]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is there anything about shipping a knife sharp that precludes one from reprofiling it, if that's what they really want to do

I agree. I have reprofiled many knives. It is far easier to put a more oblique angle on a blade than to go to a more acute angle.

I spend hours reprofiling a blade because I have to, not because I want to. I much prefer the edges I get on Buck knives. Even if they are not always super sharp, the angle is set such that I can set it to anything I want with little effort.

 

[Omega Leather Works]

I agree. I have reprofiled many knives. It is far easier to put a more oblique angle on a blade than to go to a more acute angle.

I spend hours reprofiling a blade because I have to, not because I want to. I much prefer the edges I get on Buck knives. Even if they are not always super sharp, the angle is set such that I can set it to anything I want with little effort.

Knarf, just out of curiosity, what sharpening equipment are you using? That sounds like an awful lot of work!

 

[midnight flyer]

Knife companies can't sustain themselves solely on sales to "real knife guys." The majority of folks out there, those not registered on BFC, need knives sharpened for them.
- Christian

Very, very true. The line at the "sharpen any knife for $5" line at the gun show is long all day long. So long in fact that they resort to giving claim checks so you can browse the show instead of waiting in line. I would think that a bunch of hunters, ranchers and workman that frequent these shows would consider good sharpening skills part of knife ownership, but it isn't so. Some don't want to fool with it, and some just can't get the hang of it. Something that Kershaw, Spyderco, Cold Steel, AG Russell and many others have taken note of and they try to make sure you get a sharp knife out of the box. Even with today's super hard steels, a purchase of their knives will almost surely get you a sharp knife. It makes for good customer relations and good marketing as well.

Yes, and I would think that the average customer, faced with a blunt knife at point of sale, would not wish to purchase it. Of course many knives are now purchased over the internet, which means the edge can't be inspected beforehand.

Certainly encompasses the folks I know. Not one of my friends look forward to buying a cutting instrument, then after purchase taking it home and sharpening it until it cuts. Not one. Most won't fool with it. They have great sport with my purchase of the Queen products (can't get enough D2) because I spend so much time reprofiling and tuning up a good, sharp edge. Their question to me (not understanding the knife culture of BF) is "why did you buy a dull knife to begin with?"

Difficult to explain.

Robert

 

[Jack Black]

Steel? I think I may have confused my post by leaving out the "wood". Sorry, I meant wood carving knives. Sometimes I forget that there are those other carving knives, the ones meant to carve animal flesh.

Great discussion btw guys.

LOL! That makes more sense, I thought you were talking about the other kind!

The point about the steel is that it'll maintain an already reasonably sharp edge, it's pretty useless on a completely blunt knife.

 

[knarfeng]

Knarf, just out of curiosity, what sharpening equipment are you using? That sounds like an awful lot of work!

I like using a Sharpmaker for edge maintenance. That means my edge angles have to be set to 20° or 15° per side. Because I do a lot of plastic cutting and trimming during home fixit projects, I sometimes opt for the 20° setting. I never use pocket knives for cutting flesh or food.

I have been using a DMT extra coarse diamond stone to remove steel. Then I refine the surfaces with regular Sharpmaker stones. I have been leaning the DMT stone against the Sharpmaker stone in order to maintain the angle.

However, I just bought a pair of 1/2" triangular Norton Coarse India stones (and a new Queen knife on which to use them). So far, I think I like these better. The Coarse India is ~180 grit and it seems to do a good job.

 

[Omega Leather Works]

I like using a Sharpmaker for edge maintenance. That means my edge angles have to be set to 20° or 15° per side. Because I do a lot of plastic cutting and trimming during home fixit projects, I sometimes opt for the 20° setting. I never use pocket knives for cutting flesh or food.

I have been using a DMT extra coarse diamond stone to remove steel. Then I refine the surfaces with regular Sharpmaker stones. I have been leaning the DMT stone against the Sharpmaker stone in order to maintain the angle.

However, I just bought a pair of 1/2" triangular Norton Coarse India stones (and a new Queen knife on which to use them). So far, I think I like these better. The Coarse India is ~180 grit and it seems to do a good job.

Ah, makes sense.

Is that Queen in d2? I think I'd want your DMT for any serious grinding if so! Your idea of using the SM as a guide for the diamond stone sounds familiar. The Norton, I take it, are designed to fit the SM then?

 

[A. G. Russell]

I may have missed, in this thread, the fact that for a factory knife, sharpening is one of the most expensive steps. This has not changed, but, customer demand has.

 

[bemo]

Thanks for that tidbit Mr. Russell. That makes sense why so many companies are hit and miss with sharpening.

 

[midnight flyer]

I may have missed, in this thread, the fact that for a factory knife, sharpening is one of the most expensive steps. This has not changed, but, customer demand has.

Well, certainly if anyone was able to comment with authority on that issue it would be Mr. Russell!

That being said, it brings a good point to this discussion. I have purchased 3 or 4 folding knives from AGR over the last three years, and all have come sharp. The AGR branded Barlow came extremely sharp. All of the knives were reasonably priced and all but one had excellent fit and finish, too. They remedied the problem with that knife immediately.

So a sharp knife at a reasonable price can be done...

Robert

 

[Hammer67]

So a sharp knife at a reasonable price can be done...

Not only can it be done - it's done all the time. And whether it's one of the most expensive parts of the process or not, many makers of less expensive knives seem to be able to pull it off pretty consistently.

 

[brownshoe]

I brought up the cost issue AG; thanks for providing proof it is true. I always believed that's why Dave Shirley's knives were dull. Kudos to ya for assuring that knives bearing the AGR mark are sharp no matter where they are made.

 

[MarkPinTx]

I don't doubt that it is expensive but I wonder why? Seems two things would make that so, time and skill. And I guess it can't be automated to any degree. It would seem that assembly and even polishing would rival if not exceed the skill and time involved, but I guess I am looking at it wrong?

 

[midnight flyer]

Not only can it be done - it's done all the time. And whether it's one of the most expensive parts of the process or not, many makers of less expensive knives seem to be able to pull it off pretty consistently.

I have learned to tread lightly here, especially refraining from mentioning certain manufacturers. But you sure said a lot there... the sharpness issue seems to be a manufacturer's issue, meaning it is totally up to them about how they want their product to be perceived.

The CASE video posted on YouTube from the show "How It's Made" that it took the machine operator just seconds to hone the blade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyTKaVE8olc

It takes minute to load if you want to watch how a folder is made at the CASE plant.

I watched a guy at a gun show that sharpened knives for a living do the same operation to "hone" as shown on the video on a belt sander and then spend just a few more seconds running the very edge of the blade over a buffing wheel loaded with compound. Just a few more seconds with a light touch, and he was done. He could put a magnificent edge on an abused, dull knife in seconds.

I don't know what it adds to a knife to have a factory sharpening, but I can't imagine that much.

Of course, I have been wrong about other things...

Robert

 

[Peregrin]

I may have missed, in this thread, the fact that for a factory knife, sharpening is one of the most expensive steps. This has not changed, but, customer demand has.

Thanks for the post A.G.. Your knowledge and expert opinion are always appreciated.

.....I watched a guy at a gun show that sharpened knives for a living do the same operation to "hone" as shown on the video on a belt sander and then spend just a few more seconds running the very edge of the blade over a buffing wheel loaded with compound. Just a few more seconds with a light touch, and he was done. He could put a magnificent edge on an abused, dull knife in seconds.

I don't know what it adds to a knife to have a factory sharpening, but I can't imagine that much.

Of course, I have been wrong about other things...

Robert

I've had friends that used the services of the gun show sharpeners. In more than one instance it took me considerable pains to undo the damage.

I trust Mr. Russell when he says that "sharpening is one of the most expensive steps". He ought to know.

 

[Jack Black]

for a factory knife, sharpening is one of the most expensive steps

If it's not too much trouble, could you explain why that is the case please?

 

[akadave2]

Just got another GEC...the Bull Lock. Serviceable edge from the tube. Few swipes on my Sharpmaker with the fine sticks and it was shaving hair. GEC listens. Also got 2 Swayback Jacks and a CV Peanut. Few swipes on the white sticks again and popping hair.