Interesting video on knife laws in NYC...ask a cop and go to jail!

[marchone]

Well as far as your argument about the bill of rights protecting the naturally given rights given to us by god... I may understand this as a christian man, but how would you explain this to an atheist? Religions have been on the decline for many years now, and far fewer people are religious today especially the younger generations....so it will only get harder to explain as time progresses.

@BadNinja got to it before I did. My parenthesized reference to John Locke explains the mindset of the Founding Fathers at the time of the debates leading to the final versions of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. An English philosopher, Locke's writings were enormously influential in defining the differences between natural rights and government protections and oversight. I did not present it as my personal Christian view. I'm a lapsed Catholic. More existentialist than anything else.

Whats the conundrum? What do you not have a solution for?? You can have plenty of concern for your rights, but what have you done to try and bring about change???

I'll get back to this later today. To the last part, in the late 80s Jimmy Ortenzio (then an active local GOP operative/Long Island Beef owner) opined I was the only chef in Manhattan he knew that could run for Congress and win. We lived in the same West Village building and he sold me product). I had no interest at the time. So, you got me there.

 

[sgt244]

TV and media is a terrible way to educate...especially in today's environment.
History is the best teacher.

"God given rights" isn't a religious statement.
It mean there are certain inalienable, natural rights we are endowed with at birth, as human beings. You don't need permission from government, and the government doesn't have the right or authority to infringe upon them in any way.
Government is tasked with securing and protecting these rights.
That's why this great country was founded, and why we are free men (and women).

We are granted the right to bear arms so that we can excercise our right to be free from a tyrannical oppressive government.

Schools used to teach history and explain this.
Today they dumb down the populace so that they are easier to rule.
But that's not their job. Free men don't need rulers.

I could go on, but let's not drift too far off topic.
I support Law enforcement, probably more than most.
I have many family members who are active law enforcement and first responders.
We take a different approach, and our local LEOs are highly respected for it.

Dont get it wrong....They are very hands on here, but they don't treat the average citizen like a suspect, and would defend our rights with passion.
Citizens here will also defend the rights of our officers.
Many of our local LEO are former military, and take our rights (especially 2A) very seriously.

I'm 50 year old. In high school we carried knives, and had long guns in our trucks in the school parking lot.
There was never a stabbing or shooting.

Remember there are tons of legal guns and great hunting/fishing in New York State, just a short drive outside the bubble of NYC.

By using the statement that something is "God given" in my opinion you are indeed making a religious statement... because if you said that to an atheist it would mean LITERALLY NOTHING to that person as they dont believe in the existence of God
Also Locke was a man, not a God.. and although famous, it was his belief that people had the rights to defend themselves.. not much different from anybody else concocting their own theory on the issue...

He was around back in the 1600s I believe, technology, geography, and the way people live and provide for themselves is completely different...if the founding fathers were alive today they may very well hold a different stance on the issue...

Also, where do you live? You cant compare a small town where everybody knows one another and their families to a place like NYC....in NYC chances are when you pass somebody on the street you will never see that person again!

And I agree there are plenty of great places to camp and hunt inside of NYS, which I take advantage of regularly, but once again you seem to have missed my point in saying that THE MAJORITY of people living in NYC do NOT take advantage of it....

You have to also realize the majority of people who live in NYC are NOT car owners. They have no need for a vehicle as they take trains/buses/taxis everywhere...which is a huge limiting factor on them when talking about driving an hour or two out of the city for a good camp grounds or hiking trails...

My cousins lived upstate and had cars by the time they turned 16, I never had a need for a vehicle living in the city and only got my jeep once I was 21 and needed it for my career. (Which in turn allowed me much easier access to getting out of the city to camp and hunt)...

 

[sgt244]

@BadNinja got to it before I did. My parenthesized reference to John Locke explains the mindset of the Founding Fathers at the time of the debates leading to the final versions of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. An English philosopher, Locke's writings were enormously influential in defining the differences between natural rights and government protections and oversight. I did not present it as my personal Christian view. I'm a lapsed Catholic. More existentialist than anything else.



I'll get back to this later today. To the last part, in the late 80s Jimmy Ortenzio (then an active local GOP operative/Long Island Beef owner) opined I was the only chef in Manhattan he knew that could run for Congress and win. We lived in the same West Village building and he sold me product). I had no interest at the time. So, you got me there.

I look forward to hearing more from you later today =]

 

[Bad Ninja]

By using the statement that something is "God given" in my opinion you are indeed making a religious statement... because if you said that to an atheist it would mean LITERALLY NOTHING to that person as they dont believe in the existence of God

Also, where do you live? You cant compare a small town where everybody knows one another and their families to a place like NYC....in NYC chances are when you pass somebody on the street you will never see that person again!

And I agree there are plenty of great places to camp and hunt inside of NYS, which I take advantage of regularly, but once again you seem to have missed my point in saying that THE MAJORITY of people living in NYC do NOT take advantage of it....

You have to also realize the majority of people who live in NYC are NOT car owners. They have no need for a vehicle as they take trains/buses/taxis everywhere...which is a huge limiting factor on them when talking about driving an hour or two out of the city for a good camp grounds or hiking trails...

My cousins lived upstate and had cars by the time they turned 16, I never had a need for a vehicle living in the city and only got my jeep once I was 21 and needed it for my career. (Which in turn allowed me much easier access to getting out of the city to camp and hunt)...

"God given" is the laguage used by our founding fathers.
Read the references to John Locke for an explaination.
This means naturalized rights, that ALL people have.
Freedom of religion was a cornerstone of our founding fathers forming this republic, and those naturalized rights apply to everyone.
Including Atheists.


I have lived in Los Angeles, Atlanta, San Diego, Tampa, St Petersburg, El Centro, and spent alot of time in Syracuse and Buffalo.
I have also worked outside the US.

The government does not have authority to decide what rights I have based on their idea of my "needs".
I am a free man.

 

[marchone]

I’m sitting now in a waiting room at Elmhurst General. Always an (ahem) interesting place. As well as I expect you know. I sincerely hope my responses do not appear as strident or lecturing. I’m just trying be concise and answer your points.

US Christians, Jews, Muslims, Athiests, et al, all live under the Constitution. Separation of church and state was a central argument for the Enlightenment which Locke was a part of. Jefferson was onboard and an ardent supporter of natural rights.

As written, the Declaration of Independence references natural rights as a basis for the Bill of Rights. Madison argued against the amendments as he reasoned everyone already knew what natural rights were extant. I personally am glad he lost that argument.

Any objection to their language mirrors a Progressive Liberal argument for the amendment or repeal of the Constitution. Alternatively or additionally it could be viewed as support for a Living Document position vs Originalism.

I look forward to hearing more from you later today =]

.

EDIT: “Life, liberty and the pursuit of property” was the original text, then edited to “Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness” as we know it. Jefferson lifted the original phrase word for word from Locke.

 

[Bad Ninja]

I’m sitting now in a waiting room at Elmhurst General. Always an (ahem) interesting place. As well as I expect you know. I sincerely hope my responses do not appear as strident or lecturing. I’m just trying be concise and answer your points.

US Christians, Jews, Muslims, Athiests, et al, all live under the Constitution. Separation of church and state was a central argument for the Enlightenment which Locke was a part of.

As written, the Declaration of Independence references natural rights as a basis for the Bill of Rights. Madison argued against the amendments as he reasoned everyone already knew what natural rights were extant. I personally am glad he lost that argument.

Any objection to their language mirrors a Progressive Liberal argument for the amendment or repeal of the Constitution. Alternatively or additionally it could be viewed as support for a Living Document position vs Originalism.

Wish you the best and hope everything turns out okay.

 

[marchone]

Thx. No probs. Routine ENT exam.

 

[sgt244]

"God given" is the laguage used by our founding fathers.
Read the references to John Locke for an explaination.
This means naturalized rights, that ALL people have.
Freedom of religion was a cornerstone of our founding fathers forming this republic, and those naturalized rights apply to everyone.
Including Atheists.


I have lived in Los Angeles, Atlanta, San Diego, Tampa, St Petersburg, El Centro, and spent alot of time in Syracuse and Buffalo.
I have also worked outside the US.

The government does not have authority to decide what rights I have based on their idea of my "needs".
I am a free man.

I gotcha

 

[sgt244]

I’m sitting now in a waiting room at Elmhurst General. Always an (ahem) interesting place. As well as I expect you know. I sincerely hope my responses do not appear as strident or lecturing. I’m just trying be concise and answer your points.

US Christians, Jews, Muslims, Athiests, et al, all live under the Constitution. Separation of church and state was a central argument for the Enlightenment which Locke was a part of. Jefferson was onboard and an ardent supporter of natural rights.

As written, the Declaration of Independence references natural rights as a basis for the Bill of Rights. Madison argued against the amendments as he reasoned everyone already knew what natural rights were extant. I personally am glad he lost that argument.

Any objection to their language mirrors a Progressive Liberal argument for the amendment or repeal of the Constitution. Alternatively or additionally it could be viewed as support for a Living Document position vs Originalism.

.

EDIT: “Life, liberty and the pursuit of property” was the original text, then edited to “Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness” as we know it. Jefferson lifted the original phrase word for word from Locke.

I can see what you are saying, very clearly written and thought out... I appreciate the response and no you were not coming off in a negative way!

I was enjoying the convo with ya guys, and may have been playing a lil devils advocate here and there, but overall I agree with ya both on many points...

Goodluck and hope all turns out well sir.

 

[sgt244]

Wish you the best and hope everything turns out okay.

Loving that gun what model Is it?
Do you actually pocket carry like that?

 

[Bad Ninja]

Loving that gun what model Is it?
Do you actually pocket carry like that?

Yessir.
Every Day Carry.
Right front pocket.

That's a North American Arms .22 WMR (.22magnum) single action revolver.
I love it.
It's my "I'm not carrying a gun" gun...lol.
It was a Christmas gift from my wife.
I made the holster.

I usually pair it with a small traditional folder.

It's tiny.

Sometimes I carry a larger gun and/or knife, but I always have the little NAA on me.
It's perfect for snakes and general "shooting stuff that needs to be shot".

 

[marchone]

Mossad has long been rumored to use the Beretta Model 21 for clandestine operations. Depends on your needs.

I wanted one of those since I was a kid (Ian Fleming gave Bond one in .25ACP to start the series until Sir Geoffrey Boothroyd wrote him a letter and disabused him of its efficacy) and you could still buy one mail order through an ad in the back pages of a comic book. From memory it was $29.99 in 1967 or so.

I had a similar semi-auto Tanfoglio in 22lr. Couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn with that sight plane. And it was louder than my old vintage 100 watt Marshall stack. Screw that.

 

[Bad Ninja]

My wife carries a Walther P22 (she has 3 of them actually, and one is a suppressor host).

NYC laws probably wouldn frown upon her to carrying her 3 blade Parker, much less a handgun.
They would prefer her to be defenseless.

Sorry for the horrible pic, the knife is in her purse.

When seconds count, police are only minutes away.

 

[marchone]

That is the original social contract. Abrogation of self defense to an authority. Today it’s used in an entirely different way.

 

[sgt244]

My wife carries a Walther P22 (she has 3 of them actually, and one is a suppressor host).

NYC laws probably wouldn frown upon her to carrying her 3 blade Parker, much less a handgun.
They would prefer her to be defenseless.

Sorry for the horrible pic, the knife is in her purse.

When seconds count, police are only minutes away.

Guess you better keep her away from NYC then huh?

Also in regards to your wife defending herself with a knife? I hope you guys have invested in real training, because statistics show that the majority of the time it is the very same person to bring the knife out in a fight that ends up getting their own weapon turned against them.

Sometimes in the tacticool community people get caught up in a world of their own and allow themselves to believe that they are Rambo, when in reality they have zero training! On top of that I have found that most are not in shape physically at all.

Self defense isnt just about firearms and knives, especially without the right training.

Apparently 40% of the population of Americans are classed as obese, I'd say that's not only unhealthy but a matter of national security.

The reason I say all this is because I have received a fair bit of training in everything from hand to hand combat to weapons and have been humbled PLENTY of times, showing myself just how much better I can become, you never know who you'll be up against...and your best may not be good enough.
Run when you can, fight when you absolutely need to I have seen too many tough guys to know nobody is tougher than a blade or bullet when they are laid out on the pavement....

To end, the point I am trying to get across is simply that a firearm or knife are tools, with proper training you can effectively utilize them. The problem comes in when people buy a firearm and think they are ready for anything after a day at the range and a few holes on paper

 

[sgt244]

That is the original social contract. Abrogation of self defense to an authority. Today it’s used in an entirely different way.

Well, the social contract differs from place to place and the law is also different. If people seek certain liberties that are not afforded to them in one place, they can always relocate.

Laws will generally always reflect the "WANT" of the majority of people in that area along with the "NEED" of said people/place. As unsafe as somebody may think NYC is I believe there were about 200 homicides last year, with over 8 million people living here.
In comparison I believe Mexico had about 34,000 homicides (that have been reported) last year alone.

Of course the minority will disagree, but you will always have that in a democracy. Cant please everybody I suppose.

 

[marchone]

You make my point vis a vis the (perhaps my) conundrum. Call it a sticky wicket. Balance between public safety and abrogation of rights. You're on the billy club end. Rolling and tossing is the phrase I recall you using. (dry delivery)

 

[Bad Ninja]

Guess you better keep her away from NYC then huh?

Also in regards to your wife defending herself with a knife? I hope you guys have invested in real training, because statistics show that the majority of the time it is the very same person to bring the knife out in a fight that ends up getting their own weapon turned against them.

Sometimes in the tacticool community people get caught up in a world of their own and allow themselves to believe that they are Rambo, when in reality they have zero training! On top of that I have found that most are not in shape physically at all.

Self defense isnt just about firearms and knives, especially without the right training.

Apparently 40% of the population of Americans are classed as obese, I'd say that's not only unhealthy but a matter of national security.

The reason I say all this is because I have received a fair bit of training in everything from hand to hand combat to weapons and have been humbled PLENTY of times, showing myself just how much better I can become, you never know who you'll be up against...and your best may not be good enough.
Run when you can, fight when you absolutely need to I have seen too many tough guys to know nobody is tougher than a blade or bullet when they are laid out on the pavement....

To end, the point I am trying to get across is simply that a firearm or knife are tools, with proper training you can effectively utilize them. The problem comes in when people buy a firearm and think they are ready for anything after a day at the range and a few holes on paper

That was a joke..sort of.

You make a great point though.
We're over 50 with less than perfect health.
We aren't going to risk death by knife fighting anyone.
At our age, all the " knife training" in the world isn't going to heal the limited range of motion arthritis and past injury causes.
I physically can't run. Neither can she.
We don't live in that fantasy world.
I'm not really a ninja.


That said, we aren't going to live in a world where the strongest criminal on the block gets to dominate us either.
To me, that is insane.
We are both very proficient with our firearms. My wife is former military.


I used the be a helluva tough guy.
Now I'm just an old man.
That doesn't mean I should roll over and die at the hands of violent criminals, or let my family be victims.
That is not for government to decide.

 

[sgt244]

That was a joke..sort of.

You make a great point though.
We're over 50 with less than perfect health.
We aren't going to risk death by knife fighting anyone.
At our age, all the " knife training" in the world isn't going to heal the limited range of motion arthritis and past injury causes.
I physically can't run. Neither can she.
We don't live in that fantasy world.
I'm not really a ninja.


That said, we aren't going to live in a world where the strongest criminal on the block gets to dominate us either.
To me, that is insane.
We are both very proficient with our firearms. My wife is former military.


I used the be a helluva tough guy.
Now I'm just an old man.
That doesn't mean I should roll over and die at the hands of violent criminals, or let my family be victims.
That is not for government to decide.

Haha!
I wasn't directing my response at you and your wife personally by the way! Sorry if it seemed like that. Great response though and I have absolutely no problems with anything that you said, and am very glad you have the mentality that you do, we seem to share the same mindset about protecting ourselves and our families!

 

[Bad Ninja]

In comparison I believe Mexico had about 34,000 homicides (that have been reported) last year alone.

.

Mexico is dominated and ruled by armed cartels.
It's law abiding citizens are restricted to basic hunting firearms, and can't effectively defend themselves.
Mexican LEOs are mostly corrupt, and ineffective.