Is a knife as important as we would like to think?

Woods Walker said:
Believe it or not I just got back from a survival situation during my afternoon conditioning hike. Well that is a bit....no rather a total exaggeration however did get hung up in a hell of mountain laurels for 45 minutes looking for a short cut and avoided a few potential slips/trips/falls opportunities. I was thinking of you guys and took along the camera if anyone wants to see. I had my daypack gear even though been in the area before.
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Lets see the footage buddy, that's what this place is about!
 
jaymeister99 said:
A typical practical day could turn into a completely unpractical day. I would bet everything I own there are a few people in Japan who wish they had a knife they didn't "NEED" right this very minute.

As a lost hiker, no not absolutely necessary. But sure would like to have one. For the simple size and weight I don't see why I wouldn't have one.
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Jay you hit the nail right on the head. So much of W&SS just assumes that the survival situation is a backpacker with a backpack full of crap. Thing is, that guy has everything he needs to survive right on his back. He might not have a mountain of food to last forever, but he has everything else from shelter to moleskin to patch over that big blister on his right palm.....

People most often don't get complacent when they are doing a multi-night hike in the wilderness. They get complacent when they are taking their kids to the soccer game, running to the corner store to get pet food, paying for their 4th lapdance....That is when you are complacent. Since we spend such a large percentage of our days lounging around ripper bars, chances are that is when the SHTF is going to happen. Too bad I have to leave that bug-out-bag in the car....Hope I can get to it. I wonder if there is any survival advantages to breast implants?
 
kgd said:
There is a wide variety of folks on this board who get a great deal of enjoyment by learning primitive skills and various survival technique. I think many folks, myself included, do a lot of this stuff under the guise of survival training but in reality much of it is performing an activity with a little education value thrown in. I know how to do a few deadfall traps and I never intend to actually use them. However, learning how to do a deadfall trap was a value action in of itself, I did some carving, learned a few principles about triggers and enjoyed the action. Trying my hand at collecting dew with a rag one morning and the transpiration from a tree were other experiments that made me learn some things, in both cases, not being overly impressed with the quantity of water taken.

A lot of what I do in the form of survival training or bushcraft training is based on using my time in the wilderness to do what I think are productive things. Other folks thing that 100% of their wilderness time should be devoted to putting one foot in front of the other and making distance. They are just different perspectives. However, I think the guy who spends his entire life backpacking and not learning how to start a primitive fire or who to make a basic shelter with a knife is sort of missing out something. Maybe not a skill that will save his life, but they are missing out on an experience and activity that is not downright terrible to experience. This is actually kind of common, at least much more common than the survivalist who never gets outdoors....although those do exist too.
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Despite the fact that survival is mostly about attitude, inner strengh, faith, and no small amount of luck, people interested in the subject are still fascinated with collecting the latest survival gadget and learning the physical skills, like navigating, fire, and shelter building, and foraging wild foods. They want to imagine that they would stand a better chance because they are more prepared than the average person, and because they have studied a variety of survival scenarios in hopes they will know what to do if time ever comes.
Much of this fascination is undoubtedly fueled by our natural fears and the fact that non of us will survive life in the end!
 
demoteamone said:
Despite the fact that survival is mostly about attitude, inner strengh, faith, and no small amount of luck, people interested in the subject are still fascinated with collecting the latest survival gadget and learning the physical skills, like navigating, fire, and shelter building, and foraging wild foods. They want to imagine that they would stand a better chance because they are more prepared than the average person, and because they have studied a variety of survival scenarios in hopes they will know what to do if time ever comes.
Much of this fascination is undoubtedly fueled by our natural fears and the fact that non of us will survive life in the end!
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I agree. Is there a value judgement there? I don't read one in your post, but it does seem that the societial cliche of the survivalist mindset is one of a looney. I just see it as a sort of healthy hobby. I don't hold to too many actual paranoid delusions about my immediate future. I think the 'getting lost in the bush scenario' is actually a kind of sane response to 'why I practice this kind of stuff'. You can always blurt that out in a fancy tuxedo party with some complicated piece of fingerfood and martini in your handz. Doing the chicken little routine is likely to get you ousted from party.
 
kgd said:
Doing the chicken little routine is likely to get you ousted from party.
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It'll also end up with you living in an underground fallout shelter.:eek:
I always have a knife and some way to make fire.
Allows me to socially light the smokes of whoever, and be generally useful when something needs cutting (or staples need removing:)).
 
kgd said:
Lets see the footage buddy, that's what this place is about!
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Sure. I do conditioning hikes on average 4 times a week so always looking to mix things up. Despite hiking the area before I wanted to do some bushwhacking looking for a short cut just for fun.

The mountain laurels starting to thicken.

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Then OMG....:D

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They don't call it a hell for nothing. I wanted to get some hight to see around but wasn't lost as knew the direction walked,had the sun and compass plus GPS. I think the most important skill is a good risk to reward calculator. It wasn't all that high but the moss was soaked.

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I went a bit off to the side as there were laurels for hand holds. One thing about picking A over B is you will never know how right it was even if the situation is mundane like this. I had a bit of a view on top.

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I packed a few knives but didn’t use them.

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Princess Pine.

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Lots of winter deer kill signs this time of year.

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Coyote? Not sure?

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GPS says I am getting near the truck though don’t need it.

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Not sure if this is on topic but pushing though mountain laurels sucks.
 
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Sure, a little red Swiss pocket knife is necessary to my survival. I use it every day at work, on every hunting trip, every fishing trip, every backpacking trip.

"Knives aren't necessary?!" I feel like I've taken crazy pills :D
 
Peter Hathaway Capstick, said he would rather go into the jungle without his rifle, rather than go without his Swiss army knife.
Eustace Conway said he could survive if dropped in the Arctic, but he would want his knife.
I bet Aron Ralston wishes he hadn't left his Swiss army knife.

You won't catch me without a knife, unless i am flying. That is why i almost never fly. regards Henry
 
kgd said:
paying for their 4th lapdance.... I wonder if there is any survival advantages to breast implants?
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KGD,

With all this talk about lap dances and implants you must be from Southern Ontario! I lived in Niagara Falls (NY) for a few years. I don't kow about the implants but I'm sure the Canadian Ballet can improve morale in a survival situation!
 
RE I suppose that is your feelings on the subject. If they died in New England with gear, do you not think that having a modicum of skills to go with their gear wouldn't help?

and

RE If you don't know how to handle a survival situation you can have all the gear in the world and still be S.O.L.

(etc)

I agree, but here's the thing- A person who doesn't see the value of basic survival gear has no real skills. Certain people here are saying that they don't need to carry a knife in the woods, and that is silly. When I go to someone's home, I always find that they have multiple knives. Everyone has knives. I am willing to bet that the guys here saying "I don't need a knife" have drawers full of knives. The reason people have knives in their homes is obvious. A knife is a handy tool that the average American uses every single day. People who make things or fix things use a knife many times a day. A human does not cease to be a human just because he leaves the city and goes into the woods. A human in the woods still needs a knife. There are literally thousands of uses for a knife. In a remote area, you cannot call someone to fix something for you. If you have a knife, you may be able to fix it yourself. You can't go to the store and buy something. But if you have a knife, you might be able to make one yourself. A knife is an essential piece of gear. Anyone who doesn't understand that hasn't spent much time in the woods and probably shouldn't be in the woods alone. A hike can go from fun to very difficult in an instant. Don't make things harder on yourself. You do need proper clothing. You do need basic gear. Without those simple things, you might not be coming home.
 
Now I'm just confused as to what side everybody is on and arguing for.....

I say that skills can trump a knife (but it takes a lot of skills),
Gear (excluding a knife) + skills can trump a knife
Knife + skill can trump a lot of things

Gear + knife without skills AIN'T Jack

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How much skill does it take to put on a sweater or rain gear? How much skill does it take to drink a bottle of water? It gets hard when you didn't bring it with you. Everyone and his brother is so amazingly skilled that they are going to make everything from scratch in the woods. The latest innovation is that they don't even need a knife to make it. Brilliant. I'll run naked into the woods to "test my survival skills." Can't wait to win that Darwin Award. Got my name on it.
 
dougshoe said:
RE I suppose that is your feelings on the subject. If they died in New England with gear, do you not think that having a modicum of skills to go with their gear wouldn't help?

and

RE If you don't know how to handle a survival situation you can have all the gear in the world and still be S.O.L.

(etc)

I agree, but here's the thing- A person who doesn't see the value of basic survival gear has no real skills. Certain people here are saying that they don't need to carry a knife in the woods, and that is silly. When I go to someone's home, I always find that they have multiple knives. Everyone has knives. I am willing to bet that the guys here saying "I don't need a knife" have drawers full of knives. The reason people have knives in their homes is obvious. A knife is a handy tool that the average American uses every single day. People who make things or fix things use a knife many times a day. A human does not cease to be a human just because he leaves the city and goes into the woods. A human in the woods still needs a knife. There are literally thousands of uses for a knife. In a remote area, you cannot call someone to fix something for you. If you have a knife, you may be able to fix it yourself. You can't go to the store and buy something. But if you have a knife, you might be able to make one yourself. A knife is an essential piece of gear. Anyone who doesn't understand that hasn't spent much time in the woods and probably shouldn't be in the woods alone. A hike can go from fun to very difficult in an instant. Don't make things harder on yourself. You do need proper clothing. You do need basic gear. Without those simple things, you might not be coming home.
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You missed the entire point I think. No one here is saying that you shouldn't carry basic survival gear. To include a good knife. What I and some others are saying is that your not going to step off the trail and die if you didn't bring a knife.
 
dougshoe said:
Everyone and his brother is so amazingly skilled that they are going to make everything from scratch in the woods.
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Believe it or not some, but very few, people are capable of doing just that. It isn't easy nor is it recommended. However, some people do train for these kinds of things. About a year or so back, Rick Marchand posted and experiment where he worked up a bowdrill kit without a knife. Just used rocks to shape a spindle from a stick that just needed some touching up and then used the two stick technique. I forget where his cordage was from, but he has also done cordage from nat. materials. Anyhow, you seem to think it is a crazy idea, but other people do try to test their meddle without gear. Usually they do this in a safe environment. However, unless you specifically test your approach and demonstrate to yourself it can be done then I'd say you don't have the skills to do it. Yes for whatever reason, people enjoy doing this kind of stuff as much as other people like hiking a trail.

Certainly, there are lots and lots of people on this board who overestimate what they can do because they confuse book knowledge or watching youtube videos with actual experiencial learning. But that isn't everybody on this board.
 
dougshoe said:
How much skill does it take to put on a sweater or rain gear? How much skill does it take to drink a bottle of water? It gets hard when you didn't bring it with you. Everyone and his brother is so amazingly skilled that they are going to make everything from scratch in the woods. The latest innovation is that they don't even need a knife to make it. Brilliant. I'll run naked into the woods to "test my survival skills." Can't wait to win that Darwin Award. Got my name on it.
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You've missed the entire spirit of the posts in this thread. Nobody is saying: "Meh, I don't need a knife. I can just make everything I need!" Nobody is saying: "You don't need to take a knife at all. It's not like you're going to run into X,Y,Z."

The question, in a nutshell, was: "Are knives as important a piece of kit as we make them out to be?"

Most of the answers (even mine) are: Yes, they are important, but not so important that you couldn't make it without one if you had to -- with the proper mindset.

The most important piece of kit, as seems to be the consensus, is the very first thing a survivor exhibits: the will to survive at all costs. A man who saws his arm off to get free from a boulder isn't doing it just because he has a knife. He's doing it because he has no other choice and wants to live. Foxes caught in traps sometimes chew their own leg off. Why? Because, it WANTS TO LIVE.

ETA:

I figured I'd add this story. It's a true story.

I went to school with a guy --we'll call him Bert-- we weren't friends, but we knew each other. Bert was an avid hunter, deer season was his favorite time of year. He had camo this and camo that, poly-something or other underwear that kept you warm and dry and were supposed be good to below freezing, insulated boots, battery operated warming socks, overalls, all that stuff. He went hunting in a place he'd be going for years. He knew it like the back of his hand. One year Bert went hunting and got caught out after dark. His light stopped working and he got turned around.
They found him two days later on the back side of the mountain. He'd succumbed to exposure.
Guess what Bert had on his side.

Hint: It wasn't a pistol.
 
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This old pic of me show's I've carried knives ever since my scouting days, why would I stop now !

scoutsbanknives61745.jpg

By pitdog2010 at 2011-03-17
 
dougshoe said:
How much skill does it take to put on a sweater or rain gear? How much skill does it take to drink a bottle of water?
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To put on a sweater or raingear -Not much skill. But knowing when to take it off? Not as simple as it sounds. What happens to you if you start sweating too much? What if you don't have raingear? What extreme do you go to stay dry? How far should you travel from your present location to find shelter from the rain? How much energy should you expend trying to get dry?

To drink water -Not much skill. What about when you run out? Do you go and find more? How far to go to get to it? Do you go look for it or stay put?

See where I'm going with this? These are things an average schmo wouldn't know. Skill and training matters much more than simply having the tool.
 
you can usualy survive for a few days without water , a few more without food , a few minutes without air
assuming you can avoid dying of exposure , you can simply by sitting on youre butt , survive ... till you get rescued if rescue is coming that is .. no knife required

note tho , it is limited span of survival ... too long with nothing and doing nothing , and you fail to survive

having some basic gear .. water bottle , blanket food etc , and you extend the time you can sit on your butt waiting for "them" to come get ya and save ya butt

having some gear and some know how ... and you can probly turn it from being a lost hiker or standed motorist into a delay and there was no actual incident to survive really ...

is a knife one of the tools that would help ? hell yeah

just as people often begin talking to God when things get scary , I like to have a knife ... and talk :)

there is a lot of comfort in having it , it opens up a lot of options for a lot of stuff from fire lighting , making shelter , food prep , defence if it gets down to it even that are just not there without it

One of the guys I learned a lot of my bush craft from used to ask " what you do here with no white fella stuff " .. and Id have to think , get creative , give an answer .. learned a lot of ways to improvise a cutting tool among other stuff

Even he carried his own knife tho
 
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