Is Boker doing a disservice to it's customers?

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The Boker "Hybrid" knives I have seen have nothing about Germany or Solingen on the tang. The only German mention is on the shield and box. Thus, for now a good indicator is the tang stamp. I don't know what, if anything, other than the shield is being done in Germany, as the raw materials do not bear the biggest part of the cost. Thus it does not make sense that is the stamped out parts were the only difference, one needs to be double the price of the other. Also, you can tell a large difference in build quality; as in the hybrids appear to be assembled by equipment and the German models appear to be assembled by hand.

Also, I am seeing the German models (tang stamped as such) coming in the big black box that was previously coming with the "hybrid". Thus, you can't go by the box anymore.

Thus, until I see something different, I am saying a Solingen Germany tang stamp is the key.

Now, don't get me started on Hen & Rooster.....
 
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All things aside, how's the quality of your knife?

It's fair, the main blade will rub if you aren't careful and the pull is way too light (probably a 2). Other than that it's fine. Here is a pic of the whole knife.

 
Note that my stockman in post #7 has a shield without wording of any kind, yet the tang stamp has both Solingen and Germany, and the item # is 7474, therefore completely German made. Apparently shields are not an iron clad proof either.

That shield was used around 2008 on the Appaloosa bone scaled knives, it's sort of a modem interpretation of their 1940-50's shield which was blank with no tree.

How old is that stockman? I think the shield thing is only for current production but how long ago it started I have no idea. From what I have read though I think if it says Soligen anywhere on the knife then it is a German made & assembled knife.

There are exceptions to every rule, nothing is set in stone as it pertains to Boker ( especially Boker USA ) , a plain shield with no company logo or name is pre 1960. Originally, shields on knife handles were mostly for decoration. They also made a convenient location for engraving your initials. In the 1950s and 1960s this changed, but Solingen made Bokers have used the tree shield with SOLINGEN underneath for quite a long time. Boker USA, post H.Boker Improved Cutlery uses the Shields as the dating system, the early H.Boker and the variants use a combo of tang stamps on the front and back of blades



But again Boker reintroduces old tang stamps all the time, I bought a new in box stag congress about a little over a year ago with this reproduction stamp




Pete
 
Simpletons like me think that stamping the word GERMANY on something made in CHINA is confusing and somewhat dishonest .Put as much sugar coated trade agreement policy on it as you like.
When I purchase a new knife I don't see why I should have to research the the history of the companys business practices and labelling .Nor its governments international trade agreements pertaining to the marking and packaging of imported or domestic products simply to discover where the knife is assembled and where each part was made.
I'm not suggesting Boker designed this strategy.They are employing it to their advantage.
 
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Simpletons like me think that stamping the word GERMANY on something made in CHINA is confusing and somewhat dishonest .Put as much sugar coated trade agreement policy on it as you like.
When I purchase a new knife I don't see why I should have to research the the history of the companys business practices and labelling .Nor its governments international trade agreements pertaining to the marking and packaging of imported or domestic products simply to discover where the knife is assembled and where each part was made.
I'm not suggesting Boker designed this strategy.They are employing it to their advantage.

I agree to a point, but Boker is clear about country of origin you just need to know what to look for and how to read the knife, I just did a quick search of bigger online type vendors, and found that the brand is definitely being misrepresented, a large non BF approved site in their details/pedigree description states made in Solingen Germany, they don't give the type of steel ( a tell ) and the shield reads Germany, so the parts are sourced from China, so I'm not sure if this is a specific deception or just a not informed vendor, but if you look up the same knife on Bokers official site you get the country of origin. I also did a quick search of a auction site again some deceptive verbiage " vintage " but you can clearly see the Boker Plus logo on the tang and box indicating Taiwan and China, so where does the blame get directed towards Boker or shady vendors/sellers, If I was buying a car and the guy slapped a BMW emblem on a Chevette who's to blame, BMW or the guy misrepresenting the product, that's kind of a silly example, maybe Boker could be a little more transparent on the knife itself, I think if you stick to reputable venders like Mike, you will get the product you are looking for, I would stay away from the auction sites and the big box stores unless you know what to look for, it's a bummer that it has to be that way, but if Boker outsourcing keeps them in a business and in a competitive market, and they are still able to produce the real deal Solingen made knives that I like and buy, I don't mind doing a little homework to get what I want and not be disappointed.
 
If I was buying a car and the guy slapped a BMW emblem on a Chevette who's to blame, BMW or the guy misrepresenting the product, that's kind of a silly example,

Not silly at all. It's quite apt.

We sometimes forget that as knife knuts we have an extreme need to have everything just so and to know EXACTLY every detail about the knife in our hand. The majority of folks who buy a knife just want a knife and aren't all that worried about where it is made.
 
That shield was used around 2008 on the Appaloosa bone scaled knives, it's sort of a modem interpretation of their 1940-50's shield which was blank with no tree.



There are exceptions to every rule, nothing is set in stone as it pertains to Boker ( especially Boker USA ) , a plain shield with no company logo or name is pre 1960. Originally, shields on knife handles were mostly for decoration. They also made a convenient location for engraving your initials. In the 1950s and 1960s this changed, but Solingen made Bokers have used the tree shield with SOLINGEN underneath for quite a long time. Boker USA, post H.Boker Improved Cutlery uses the Shields as the dating system, the early H.Boker and the variants use a combo of tang stamps on the front and back of blades



But again Boker reintroduces old tang stamps all the time, I bought a new in box stag congress about a little over a year ago with this reproduction stamp




Pete

This is the kind of response I was hoping for! Very informative & I learned something new. Thank you for that!
 
... certain dealers and ebay sellers display a photo of their Bokers for sale that are just fuzzy enough to where you can't read the stamps on their knives. I could pass it off as a mistake if it weren't for the fact that every photo of their Boker knives are fuzzy.

Glad to know A, I'm not losing my eyesight and B, I'm not being paranoid. I thought it seemed odd that I kept seeing that over and over. :mad:

-- Mark
 
I've got a Whittler and Stockman in that Appaloosa Bone with the Fed style shield. Very good quality both of these with nice bone and the Tree Brand/Solingen stamps. Well worth getting.
 
[ If I was buying a car and the guy slapped a BMW emblem on a Chevette who's to blame, BMW or the guy misrepresenting the product,

Thats the problem.Its not the guy slapping the BMW emblem on the Chevette it's BMW doing it.
 
Not silly at all. It's quite apt.

We sometimes forget that as knife knuts we have an extreme need to have everything just so and to know EXACTLY every detail about the knife in our hand. The majority of folks who buy a knife just want a knife and aren't all that worried about where it is made.


Thanks Frank, I wanted to give a sort of tongue in cheek example without coming off as rude, which is sometimes hard with this type of format, perhaps another example would be the Champagne/ sparkling wine example, only Champagne that can be called Champagne needs to be made with Champagne grapes in the Champagne region, there are all sorts of organizations to ensure it's quality and is produced a certain way, organizations like Institut National des Appellations d'Origine) (INAO), appellation d'origine contrôlée (AOC) , Le Comité Interprofessionnel du vin de Champagne (CIVC), etc. Champagne grapes grown in California and made via the same processes will never be Champagne, but will be sparkling wine.
Boker with Solingen on the shield is Bokers Champagne, Bokers with Germany on the shield is sparking wine. It's funny and coincidental, I was going through the mail and I received a catalogue from a box store knife vendor and on one of the pages they have pictures of Boker, and stating made in SOLINGEN Germany, and sure enough they have a blown up picture of the shield to show that it is made in Germany, which is clearly marked on the shield, so the uninformed will buy that knife, not knowing it was made with parts from China, I feel that this would be a vendor misleading, on the same page right below it there are SOLINGEN made Boker Beer Barrel knives with no zoom in on the SOLINGEN shield, what I do find misleading is that both the German shield ( China parts ) and SOLINGEN shield ( genuine German made ) both have the Tree Brand blade etch. There is about a $30 difference between models ie the two different trappers.
I guess there have always been snake oil salesmen,





being a informed consumer only gives you more power instead of becoming a victim, I'm sure some Egyptian tried to pass off a palm leaf to some poor sap as papyrus.


Pete
 
Seems like the big take home lesson is - don't buy from shady dealers and big box stores. If you care enough to be on this forum regularly, then you probably care enough to do a little homework before buying a knife. Or, you could buy a knife from a different manufacturer for which there is no doubt about the country of origin.

smileycoffeed.gif
 
[ If I was buying a car and the guy slapped a BMW emblem on a Chevette who's to blame, BMW or the guy misrepresenting the product,

Thats the problem.Its not the guy slapping the BMW emblem on the Chevette it's BMW doing it.

I think you may be missing the point, you stated earlier fuzzy photos, so you already sort of answered your own question, that fuzzy photo is a example of a shady salesman, again Boker states on their website country of origin, just because a vendor has a picture of a knife with a blurb " made in Germany " that some web designer who probably has zero interest or knife knowledge about a particular brand, maybe did a quick search to get the info and then moved on.
To give another example, I've seen a few times on this forum, folks buy a Gec Tidioute and then they start a thread about I bought this Gec Tidioute and it's getting rust spots and pit marks, the vendor I bought it from said it was stainless steel, is that GEC's fault, the vendors fault, or your fault the person who bought it? I know it's not GEC's fault.

Hello, sir. Would you like to buy this lovely bridge here? Its on sale for today only. Think of all the money you could make from tolls.”
“Are you sure its for sale mate?” replied the confused old man.
“Why else would it have a ‘For Sale’ sticker on it?!” came the reply.
George C. Parker was the greatest con man in American history managing to sell landmark items like Madison Square Gardens, the Statue of Liberty and, you guessed it, the Brooklyn Bridge.
In fact, he sold the Brooklyn Bridge at least twice a week, one time for as much as $50,000. Sometimes the police would have to stop the “new owners” from setting up toll booths in the middle of the bridge.


So I ask you want to buy a bridge?

Pete
 
After being mislead in a Boker purchase advertising 'Solingen' for a 'Germany' knife I became ultra cautious re: Boker. The Boker IS being deceptive in stamping a knife 'Germany' when in reality all they're doing in Germany is boxing it up to satisfy German laws.
Here is a SxS picture of the same knives;

Both seem to be good quality knives but the deceitful stamping makes be sick. It would seem that Boker has gone the way of USA companies.
 
It does seem that the tang should be marked with one country or the other. I don't think that some bit of work in Germany of sourced parts as an excuse not to mark any country at all on the tang. We have used this for 50 years to determine country of origin; and now they stop. You simply have to ask "why is there not a country of origin on the tang?" Many makers bring them into the country with an ink marking knowing the sellers then just polish it off. At least Boker is not being deceptive, other than omission, as some old name makers are.

So now the buyers that don't really have a preference keep on buying. And the buyers that do have a preference don't buy anything because they can't be sure what they are getting. The dealers that don't mind selling the hybrids are making good money selling what should be a $15 knife for $35 and the dealers that don't want to sell hybrids can't get $40 for their $40 knife. It's a crying shame, but an indicator of how fast this market is willing to put their name on anothers product just to make a buck. And it is hard to blame them, because that is where they see the vast majority of the money flowing from the consumers.
 
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After being mislead in a Boker purchase advertising 'Solingen' for a 'Germany' knife I became ultra cautious re: Boker. The Boker IS being deceptive in stamping a knife 'Germany' when in reality all they're doing in Germany is boxing it up to satisfy German laws.
Here is a SxS picture of the same knives;

Both seem to be good quality knives but the deceitful stamping makes be sick. It would seem that Boker has gone the way of USA companies.

But who did you purchase from? A reputable dealer or a online auction site?, from your picture, I can tell the the top one is 100% SOLINGEN German made, and the bottom one made with parts made in China, did you purchase from Boker direct or at least go to Boker site and cross reference? I'm speculating no, my guess is you purchased thinking you were getting a good deal, if it quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, chances are it a duck.

Playing devils advocate the uninformed seller can also work in the purchasers favor, I've bought a early 1900's Boker in near mint condition for $15, a stag handle Case that was being sold as bone for $30, 1970 red bone case stockman for $5, a exceptional Dwight Divine BSA 1920's for a little over $20, but I knew what I was buying, the seller did not know what they had, Knowledge is power, you don't have to buy something most of the time, so take a little time and don't get burned.
Plus this forum is such a great resource, I've had members contact me when they were looking at something and I've shared the info that I could provide, I've gathered a lot of Boker info for my own interest of learning, and wanting to know.

Pete
 
It does seem that the tang should be marked with one country or the other. They are using the (probably on a hint of the truth) story of assembled in Germany of sourced parts as an excuse not to mark any country at all on the tang. We have used this for 50 years to determine country of origin; and now they stop. You simply have to ask "why is there not a country of origin on the tang?" Many makers bring them into the country with an ink marking knowing the sellers then just polish it off. At least Boker is not flat out lying as some old name makers are.

So now the buyers that don't really have a preference keep on buying. And the buyers that do have a preference don't buy anything because they can't be sure what they are getting. The dealers that don't mind selling the hybrids are making good money selling what should be a $15 knife for $35 and the dealers that don't want to sell hybrids can't get $40 for their $40 knife. It's a crying shame, but an indicator of how fast this market is willing to put their name on anothers product just to make a buck. And it is hard to blame them, because that is where they see the vast majority of the money flowing from the consumers.

Great post Mike, I've noticed over the last year your Boker inventory has really dwindled, it's a shame because you are one of the good guys, have you reached out to Boker? Maybe Dan Weidner? It a shame to watch the genuine product get washed out by the cheaper variety, and reputable guys like yourself not willing to take the chance and get burned and in return burn your customer by accident.

Pete
 
Several have mentioned Boker's website in affirming that Boker is not deceptive in the country of origin. The website is quoted directly:

◾Boker knives: Solingen, Germany
◾Boker Arbolito knives: Argentina
◾Boker Plus knives: Taiwan and China
◾Cinch knives by Boker: Solingen, Germany
◾Magnum knives: Taiwan and China

Okay. Except the traditional Tree Brand knives under discussion here are "Boker knives". No other classification applies to them. And many of them are NOT made in Germany. Assembled in Germany maybe but not really made there. Also, if some recent reports are true, some of the Cinch brand knives are now coming from China.

Boker's website was changed recently. It previously stated "Tree Brand" knives were made in Solingen, Germany. Apparently someone pointed out that is not the case for all Tree Brand knives and the wording was changed.

I don't think it's deceptive practices by merchants. I think Boker has muddied the issue so much one has to really understand the finer points of their branding to figure out where and who actually made their knives.

Also, I don't think the shield is a good indicator of country of origin. There are various shield designs used by Boker. Some only have the tree symbol on the shield, some just say "Tree Brand" in a logo. And then there's the "Cinch" knives that are/were just rebadged Tree Brand knives. I think the only true indication of country of origin is the tang stamp. If it does not say "Solingen" on the tang, it's not made there. At least every real Solingen knife I own says "Solingen" on the blade tang. I've read that the Solingen name is protected under German law...don't know if that's the case, just repeating things I've read.

I really like Tree Brand knives. I rank them high on my list of favorite brands and one of my most carried knives is an Appaloosa Congress. But I do believe the company is deceptive in labeling their knives. A few months ago I bought one of the "Germany" Copperhead knives without realizing it was not made in Germany. It's a pretty knife but it's disappointing in comparison to the Solingen knives I own. That disappointing purchase is why I started researching this labeling mess and trying to figure it all out. I'm not sure I'm completely clear yet.
 
Both of the copperhead knives were purchased through reputable dealers. Both were advertised as 'Solingen'. I kept the 'Germany' stamped knife to physically compare the knives and purchased the 'Solingen' after verifying the tang stamp via a phone call.
Knifeswapper, Stich and Lee. It would seem that all of us duplicted our verifying process.
As I said, both knives seem to be good knives but the Solingen knives have an edge on the Germany knive IMHO. Thank you guys for verifying my research for me. It helps my confidence level.
I still won't purchase any more Bokers of any stamp as I believe this confusion is Boker caused. And this has made me extremely cautious with all other manufacturers as well. As far as USA knives go, a super duper polishing doesn't make a 50 dollar knife a 100 dollar knife. Just saying.
 
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