Is bugging out a romantic fantasy?

[beeperboy]

BeeperBoy, that sounds interesting. What brand and model stove is that? Link to mfg.??

Thanks.

L.W.

All of the newer high efficiency stoves have an EPA rating for particulate (smoke) output. There are two ways to get high efficiency; preheated secondary combustion air, and a catalytic converter in the chimney similar to the one on your car's exhaust. My stove uses the secondary combustion air to burn more of the fuel gases before they disappear up the chimney and end up as smoke. My new stove uses about half the wood to generate the same heat as my older stove.

EPA stoves are mandated in some municipalities now for smog control. They aren't mandated in my city yet, but I wanted to get a head start so I wasn't stuck with a stove that my neighbors would have reason to involve bylaw enforcement officers.

The EPA stoves cost about twice as much as cheaper DIY Home Depot stoves. The manufacturers have spent a lot of money squeezing that last bit of efficiency out of them, so the cost is passed on to the consumer. Any one can build a low cost/low efficiency stove. I've built them in my garage.

Here is some good reading.
http://www.epa.gov/woodstoves/
http://www.ec.gc.ca/cleanair-airpur...ome/Choosing_an_Appliance-WS1CF9A564-1_En.htm

Here is my stove.
http://www.napoleonfireplaces.com/Webshare/wood/wood stoves/1100.html
I have the outside air option which allows the stove to draw it's combustion air from outdoors. This prevent the stove from creating a vacuum in my house and drawing cold air in around my drafty old doors and windows.

Any ways sorry to high jack this thread.

BB

 

[Watchful]

The answer is only if I'm forced to and where I live there are two likely disaster scenarios; nuclear radiation and tornados. Less likely are a biological terrorist event and distantly a earthquake.

In the Tennessee area, you should also consider a chemical hazard as part-and-parcel with a radiological event.

I agree that some "interesting" military components are convoyed through Tennessee that could result in a radiological event should there be a crash. I wouldn't worry so much about a nuclear power plant unless you live East of one. They're quite safe in the US, otherwise.

But in a similar vein, a train carrying ammonia or similar compound could overturn near you, and gases could drift your way in a concentration just bad enough that it hurts to breathe. I think your strategy in this case would be indentical to your radiological one: don't trust your water, and careful breathing!

 

[Leanwolf]

BB, thanks for the infor. I bookmarked that site. I'm thinking of building a cabin on some property up in the boonies and that stove looks like it would be a very efficient one.

L.W.

 

[Andrew Colglazier]

We already live in the country. My wife works in a small local town.

If we are on a trip, she and I will be together, and well equipped. I travel with a large BOB (bug out box) in my vehicle, inside the vehicle is a back pack and a maxpedition pack.

If the vehicle must be left, we pack the backpack with some of the itIems in the box, I take that and my wife takes the Maxpedition pack.

I'm not terribly concerned.

Andy

 

[sodak]

One book to add to your collection is this, many good ideas:

Practical Survival, Tips, Tricks, and Skills. Author - Tony Nester

 

[Moodino]

Please don't hate me. I've ALREADY bugged out! Saves a lot of time and hassle that way ! LOL. So if / when SHTF, I'll be hunkering down.

 

[BubbaThud]

If it comes up, I'll definitely be hunkering down unless something forces me to leave the area...giant fires or chemical spill or whatnot. I'm sitting in the middle of the urban sprawl in SoCal, and escaping will be something that will take a lot of long-term planning to accomplish. Right now I have Bug out Bags and bicycles, but with small children, walking out is particuarly ugly.

Should the house, (rented piece of crap), not be sufficiently defendable for whatever emergency is at hand, I'll be moving the fam a couple of miles into an underground bomb shelter from the 70's...I don't know who built it, but it's listed as an underground water resevoir on the city records, and I never found any signs of other people going down there, not to mention it's just outside of town right up against the closest things we have to hills in the Riverside area.

On the subject of the discontented masses, although other people, (refugees, bandits, military, etc) will undoubtedly be the most dangerous issue, under most circumstances, a well-prepared family will not have much difficulty handling the average band of 5-10 refugees or bandits, particuarly if you've prepared for them with traps, and prepared ambush sites. I have a couple of spots within my house with steel set up such that I have both cover and concealment, and a good LoS on the routes deeper into my house, along with handy dandy bandito dissuasion devices. So sure, they want what you have and are willing to kill you to take it, but a little preparation will give you at least as much advantage over these people as a hunter has over a Bear or whatnot.

Bear in mind, my Bugout Bags are cheap, easy, and more in the nature of overnight packs than they are survival packs...my father, (PapaThud), now he has some serious BugOut bags, and an awful lot of my long term GOTH (Go to Hell) plan revolves around getting out to his property intact, at least until he croaks, and then it will all be on me, (of course, then I get his gear).

One last thought....bugging out from a rural or wildneress area and bugging out from an urban area are very similar. In either case you're trying to put some distance between the percieved danger and your family. Urban is just another environment for you to handle, and regardless of the environment you're in, your bugout bag should take surviving in it into account. If you're running into the desert, you need different gear than if you're running out into the artic tundra, and so on and so forth. Urban areas leave you with lots and lots of places to hide, and lots of stuff to scavenge. Bugging out into a city totally works as long as you have prepared for the environment, glass cutters, prybars, lock picks and a basic understanding of how to use them, a basic set of mechanicing tools, Door alarms, wire cutters, bolt cutters, can-openers, etc. Think about how long 1 family could spend "mining" one CostCo for example, and think of what you'd need to do it.

Regardless of how well you've prepared for a disaster, preparing for it and thinking about it increases your chances of surviving. There are no guarantees of course, but the unskilled skater punk with no gear who has considered riding his skate board away from the Zombie horde has a better chance than the random martial artist, with or without weaponry, who stands and stares at the zombies, thinking "OMG zombies aren't real!", as they shuffle closer and closer.

--BubbaThud

 

[Don Rearic]

On the subject of the discontented masses, although other people, (refugees, bandits, military, etc) will undoubtedly be the most dangerous issue, under most circumstances, a well-prepared family will not have much difficulty handling the average band of 5-10 refugees or bandits, particuarly if you've prepared for them with traps, and prepared ambush sites. I have a couple of spots within my house with steel set up...

Those "5-10 refugees or bandits" might not be so "average." It might be that they already looted a gun store or perhaps they ambushed some Guardsman and they have some belt-fed firepower. Simple .308 Win. (7.62X51mm NATO) will penetrate 1/2" TL-3 I-Beam and if you have steel plates better than that, thicker or larger, you must have quite the collection of metallic detritus in your house.

One last thought....bugging out from a rural or wildneress area and bugging out from an urban area are very similar. In either case you're trying to put some distance between the percieved danger and your family.

If you are in a rural area and you are bugging out, just where would you be bugging out to? An urban area? Frying pan into a fire.

Urban areas leave you with lots and lots of places to hide...

It's quite likely that any good places to hide will already be occupied in a scenario like this.

...and lots of stuff to scavenge...

Unless you are out when the scenario begins to unfold, this is not going to happen, either. Most of it will already be gone and you simply cannot count on this.

Bugging out into a city totally works as long as you have prepared for the environment, glass cutters, prybars, lock picks and a basic understanding of how to use them, a basic set of mechanicing tools, Door alarms, wire cutters, bolt cutters, can-openers, etc.

1. Glass cutters probably won't be necessary...but could be a handy thing. Most of the glass is going to already be gone. Still, they weigh nothing...

2. Prybars, mini-prybars up to the Stanley Wonder Bar would be a very realistic set of tools to have.

3. "Lockpicks and a basic understanding of how to use them" would be all right except for, "the basic understanding of how to use them." With a basic understanding of how to use them, you would be able to get into some padlocks and some doorknobs and deadbolts - generally the lower end of expectations like a majority of Master brand padlocks, etc.

4. Bolt Cutters could also come in very handy, the only problem is, the most effective bolt cutters are about three feet long.

5. "Door alarms" are probably not going to be much of a problem for anyone interested - if the power goes out the most they will have is a 80-hour backup and that would be rare because most people, companies and alarm companies don't maintain them properly and they don't hold the stated charge the way they should because they're old. Not counting TelCo problems, etc. No police responding, either.

Which leads us to your next point:

Think about how long 1 family could spend "mining" one CostCo for example, and think of what you'd need to do it.

Well, while you were practicing with your budget-based South-Ord pickset, the hillbilly down the street done hooked a logging chain to the front doors of the CostCo after shotgunning about a dozen milling knuckleheads and pulled them off and he and his already got the goodies... Or the milling knuckleheads already busted the glass and pried the doors and they are busy looting the joint.

Regardless of how well you've prepared for a disaster, preparing for it and thinking about it increases your chances of surviving. There are no guarantees of course, but the unskilled skater punk with no gear who has considered riding his skate board away from the Zombie horde has a better chance than the random martial artist, with or without weaponry, who stands and stares at the zombies, thinking "OMG zombies aren't real!", as they shuffle closer and closer.

I get what you're saying. I don't think there will ever be zombies but if you consider that our inner cities have severe crack and heroin problems, it's not hard to blue sky a scenario where you're going to have some real zombies walking around. At least for a few days in the case of the heroin junkies because after a while, they are going to get really sick and lay it down for days on end until they either die or get through the withdrawal...

On the other hand, every other place, suburban and rural, have a real problem with crystal-meth, crank. Whatever the current, faddish name for it is, and those are zombie-like as well.

 

[sicily02]

Those are some good points Don.

 

[Don Rearic]

Once in a while, I come up with a few my friend.

 

[rayfloro]

Any long term scenario where I run out of toilet paper scares the crap out of me.....excuse the pun.

But seriously, the topic of "waste disposal"........has anyone catered for that. Assuming water, and facilities are not working

 

[Don Rearic]

Metal trashcans and lots of Hefty bags man. And then other tight fitting cans to store them in as well. Copra-survival.

 

[BubbaThud]

I figured I'd dig a hole and squat....set up a nice Outhouse for a more long term solution.


I'm not sure how to work the quote tool...I guess I'll play with it later. But in response to

"Those "5-10 refugees or bandits" might not be so "average." It might be that they already looted a gun store or perhaps they ambushed some Guardsman and they have some belt-fed firepower. Simple .308 Win. (7.62X51mm NATO) will penetrate 1/2" TL-3 I-Beam and if you have steel plates better than that, thicker or larger, you must have quite the collection of metallic detritus in your house. "

It's true, they might not be average, but their gear isn't what I'm talking about. I assume they'll be armed, but unless they're trained, them being armed isn't going to be a catastrophic problem. I'd love to see a video of some random bangers "using" something belt fed. They might be able to make it work, they might even manage to reload it, but I highly doubt they'll be using it effectively. Now if you're talking about some Iraqui rebels or a SEAL team, or some other group who has trained and practiced, or people with experience with urban combat...yeah, I'm totally SoL.

The glass cutters are more for scavenging glass than they are for getting through glass. Glass can be an amazingly useful tool in the aftermath.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that a city is an environment like any other. There are advantages and disadvantages to "survival" within this environment, and if you prepare and train for it, bugging out into a city or Bugging in in a city is a real possibility, and something most survivalists don't consider, address, or prepare for.

The door alarm isn't anti alarm tools....I mean those annoying things from the shows...you hang them on one side of a door, and if someone touches the doorknob they make a huge racket.

As far as the hillbilly and the knuckleheads getting to the CostCo before me...of course they're going to have been there first. But if you walk around CostCo and look at how they store junk, an awful lot of the "wealth" represented in such a store isn't going to be readily available, nor readily transportable for the people you're describing. The one HillBilly isn't going to have completely emptied out the CostCo the first day he showed up, nor in the month after...in 6 months or a year maybe. In situations where smash and grab is effective...you use smash and grab....the stuff that isn't smash and grabbable will mostly still be there, as was demonstrated by the Hurricaine Katrina thing and the immediate aftermath. Tons and tons of looting, lots of stuff washed out to sea, but there was still a lot of junk left over...mostly the junk that wasn't easy to grab and throw in your backpack or walk home with.

I don't think we'll be worried about zombies either....pissed off poor people seem a lot more likely. I just used the zombie example because it's easy to visualize, having already been used in a bunch of movies and whatnot.


--BubbaThud

 

[Sgt. Art]

It's true, they might not be average, but their gear isn't what I'm talking about. I assume they'll be armed, but unless they're trained, them being armed isn't going to be a catastrophic problem. I'd love to see a video of some random bangers "using" something belt fed. They might be able to make it work, they might even manage to reload it, but I highly doubt they'll be using it effectively. Now if you're talking about some Iraqui rebels or a SEAL team, or some other group who has trained and practiced, or people with experience with urban combat...yeah, I'm totally SoL.


--BubbaThud[/QUOTE]

With regards to gang bangers being trained the military has a significant number of gang members in it. They are not only getting training they are getting experience in Iraq and Afganastan. When they get out and return home guess who becomes the gangs training officers. At a local range where I live gang bangers often go and rent weapons to include full autos to pratice with. This saves them from have to transport their weapons (possibibly illegal) and give them training time. Never underestimate your advisary.

 

[BubbaThud]

Yes, some bangers are trained. Some doctors are trained. Some nuns are trained. I've seen some videos of an all female tactical response team from...Iran? I'm not sure where they're from, but they do the whole Tactical entry deal while still keeping their faces covered, and if they break into my house, they're probably going to simply kill me, prep or no prep. If we're talking about people with experience and or training in urban combat...those of us without the experience or training are going to have a bad day unless we get lucky. But I highly doubt that the average banger, or the majority of bangers, are putting in much time in Iraq.

So I absolutely agree with those of you who are bringing up the examples of people who would be an issue. In my original post, I said the average band of 5 to 10 refugees or bandits, and the average, or normal band of these people will not be a problem. The problems arise from exceptional bandits or refugees, but with the current level of money and time I am putting into the try and survive if the shtf plan, there's not much I can do about the exceptional.

--BubbaThud

 

[savagesicslayer]

I live in the sticks where power outages are semi-frequent and can be long lasting.We use wood for heat/cooking water is obtained from a spring that flows all year up the road.All of my neighbors are my direct family so we'd pool resources if things really got tough.If fuel became a problem then our horse would start earning his oats (for a change).

 

[Don Rearic]

Gang bangers have been going in the Army and USMC at least going back to the First Gulf War where there were photos of them released years ago flashing gang signs, the point is moot.

You get a couple tuds on a belt-fed M60 OR a couple Winchester or Savage bolt guns which are available ANYWHERE and unless you have real armor, as you cited "steel plates" or whatever, you're going to be in for a bad, bad time. Like I said, .308 will go through some fairly respectable pieces of steel with no sweat, so will .30-06 and a whole lot more. Having some steel plate in place would be good as far as it goes, against a lot of handguns and shotgun, etc., but anything serious it is not the panacea you and others think it might be.

You shoot TL-3 I Beam and you walk up to it and pick up copper mushrooms with holes in the center, that's the stripped jacket and if you are on the other side you get hit with a blazing hot chunk of lead and a piece of I Beam that has basically spalled off of the other side at times.

I understand some of the points you are trying to make and don't really disagree with the general view, but there are some things in there that you are covering for and making excuses for and it's just not so. People with guns who mean to do you harm are dangerous and they are more dangerous the better they are armed and then the ante gets upped a bit with some training. But the truth of the matter is, if you get three idiots with .30-30 lever guns and they keep your head down long enough for a couple other idiots to light your structure up with just stupid-simple technology, The Molotov Cocktail, you have serious problems.

In a way, I really didn't even want to get into all of this because it is really, really blue sky territory.

 

[sodak]

Any long term scenario where I run out of toilet paper scares the crap out of me.....excuse the pun.

But seriously, the topic of "waste disposal"........has anyone catered for that. Assuming water, and facilities are not working

You need to check out Cody Lundin's new book, he has an entire chapter for this, and it's very well done and thought through.

 

[Foilist]

Here's a useful tip (maybe) for those with children:

it may be best for them to stay at their school for the short term. Schools have their own generators, cafeterias stocked with food, infirmaries (complete with nurse), and are required to have a large amount of bottled water on hand. Some even have an independent water supply. Schools also often have wood, metal, and auto shops. My family bug out plan is for my wife (who works at a rural high school) to get our toddler daughter from the nearby daycare and hunker down at the school until it is safe to move back to our rural home.

I work at a suburban high school some 50 miles away. I guess I would stay at my school until it was safe and practical to move, and then make my way home.

 

[Don Rearic]

I think there is the way we want things to be and the way things are going to be. Unfortunately for some of us, these are oftentimes colliding and banging around in our heads. Perhaps that is what George had in mind when he started this thread.

Sometimes, you're going to have to leave an area and that area, safe and sound, might be where almost all of your security lies. That would be quite traumatic but not nearly as traumatic as getting injured, wounded or killed.

Generally speaking, if you live in a city...things are going to be very bad for you if you are talking about a disaster on a major scale or for long term disruptions no matter what the cause. People who really believe something is going to happen in the future that is aligned with some of these very violent scenarios, you really need to think about moving. You are outnumbered HUNDREDS TO ONE and you are totally and completely outgunned.

On the other hand...well, this is considered SIP, or "Shelter In Place." What if you can't? That leaves, well, leaving - or has become popular - "bugging out."

Evacuating. Doesn't matter, all means the same thing.

If you evacuate, if you bug out, there is now another word you can use to describe yourself, "refugee."

"Refugee" in these types of really bad scenarios can quickly turn into "Evader." What if you start your "bugging out" and you get rounded up and you are not "allowed" to leave an area? You left what safety you had and now you're headed towards FEMA City. Not nice. Could happen too. It's more likely to happen from the flu than it is from a terrorist incident although that is entirely possible as well.

In other words, no one really cares about you but you and they're really not going to make a huge effort to get you back to the place you left. Your gear, food and medicine will be confiscated, at gunpoint if necessary, and you will be taken to whatever area they designate.

Now, this is the reality of the situation that is already put forth in the plans they have, it's not my idea. If you have 14 days of food and water, in the case of the flu, don't open the door and stay where you are. In other cases? Hard to say. Very situational and it depends on how bad the freak out factor is from the powers that be but I can guarantee you one thing - a lot of the B.S. that people think they are going to do in certain situations is just that, B.S. They don't even know enough to know what they don't know...or so the saying goes.