Is Busse the new Randall?

[killgar]

Clearly I failed to take this thread seriously and recognize it's true purpose. This thread isn't about making jokes, it's about trying to prove "I know more about knife steel than you do". Shame on me. What was I thinking?

 

[not2sharp]

Arguably, for the first 40 or so years that Randall was around, there was no Kool Aid involved. They were among the best knives that you could find.

That is an important point too. When Randall started up there was little competition or sophistication. Now we have many thousands of makers using a wide range of materials, forms, and designs. There is no way that any one maker today will dominate the market the way Randall did and does. Randall has set the standard by which others makers are evaluated, their quality of manufacture has been consistent over a very long period of time. Like them or hate them, they have defined for generations what a good knife is supposed to be, and they have consistently marketed themselves to adults without sinking to the overhyped mall-ninja garbage that often denegrates knife collecting by making it seem like a hobby for slow witted adolescencents.

n2s

 

[sodak]

OK that's enough. Mr Ankerson, you know its is about the heat treatment. There are elemental properties that matter and you know that, INFI is in this category because they have a unique HT technique.

Low Alloy steels are not exempt from performance because their elemental statistics are relatively low compared to super steel stats. Bob Cramer can make basic steels perform at very high levels; as did F.J. Richtig who reportedly forged in 1095 (or maybe another carbon steel) and if you do not know what he could do with his knives and in what year (note the available technology), than you should read up on him.

HT is the key to performance. better steel is the key to achieving higher performance with high HT standards. If you do not optimize both of them, than the discussion is baseless and mis leads the youngin's

We all know who Richtig was. To the best of my knowledge, the only one who validated Richtig's claims were Richtig. If you have one of his knives, then let's check it to see if it holds up.

And by the way, not all of us are young ones.

 

[jdm61]

So assuming an equal talent level, the M4 race knives should have a distinct advantage, right? Just curious how you figure that comps are not a good test for certain attributes when you seem to do a lot of 2x4 chopping in your videos, which is a test that pretty much anyone can pass using an edge quenched 5160 blade that they made after a two week intro course.

Blade Sports in no way goes to normal use of any knife or steel, the runs are VERY short so just about any properly HTed steel that's worth making a knife out of will perform.

It's more about the Cutters (Pure Talent) and those specially designed knives than it is the steel they are made out of.

 

[giant1]

Why thank you, youngin'! It's about dang time the line in the sand was drawn.

So there you have it, Randall folks have taste and experience, and BUSSE folks are impressed with the shiny stuff under the hood rather than their driving skills.

Can we all stop with the silly word games gents, anyone with a notion can come up with relatively pointless posts that add nothing to this thread. This is the wrong venue for amateur night comedy skits at happy hour.

Hmmm.......

I didn't say that Randall folks had taste and experience, I just said they wear cardigans with leather patches on the sleeves. Now this is obviously an assumption on my part but if right could point to what Busse guys will need to do when they are old in order for Busse to become the new Randall

Looks like they (Busse guys) may also need to lose their sense of humour

 

[GRIM 62]

When Busse starts sending out sharp knives,not in a cardboard sheath,they might reach greatness.

 

[Ankerson]

OK that's enough. Mr Ankerson, you know its is about the heat treatment. There are elemental properties that matter and you know that, INFI is in this category because they have a unique HT technique.

Low Alloy steels are not exempt from performance because their elemental statistics are relatively low compared to super steel stats. Bob Cramer can make basic steels perform at very high levels; as did F.J. Richtig who reportedly forged in 1095 (or maybe another carbon steel) and if you do not know what he could do with his knives and in what year (note the available technology), than you should read up on him.

HT is the key to performance. better steel is the key to achieving higher performance with high HT standards. If you do not optimize both of them, than the discussion is baseless and mis leads the youngin's

I am not that young.....

HT is everything no matter what steel we are talking about, but HT and tempering just won't turn 52100 into CPM 10V no matter what you do to it because the alloy content just isn't there.

INFI isn't a normal or simple steel by any means to start with and we all know Busse has their process that they use so that does make a difference.

So assuming an equal talent level, the M4 race knives should have a distinct advantage, right? Just curious how you figure that comps are not a good test for certain attributes when you seem to do a lot of 2x4 chopping in your videos, which is a test that pretty much anyone can pass using an edge quenched 5160 blade that they made after a two week intro course.

That would really depend on the tempering and final hardness as those knives are ground pretty thin so I would expect that M4 is on the softer side to increase toughness, but it will still have higher edge retention than 01.

The problem I have are those who use Blade Sports to relate to everyday use of FOLDERS, the top guys use X steel so it's the greatest thing since sliced bread...... HUH???? What????

What does a race knife have to do with folders?

But can those said knives made after that 2 week course chop though 12 of those 2x4's, 3 4x4's, and assorted logs and trees that I cut down and chopped up and still shave like my NMFBM did?

I did a long term test on that knife just to see how long INFI would hold that edge when chopping, now granted that NMFBM is not you normal knife with the edge geometry and blade grind that it has. They were basically custom knives that were hand ground (NOT CNCed) so comparing them really isn't fair.

 

[JAB]

When Busse starts sending out sharp knives,not in a cardboard sheath,they might reach greatness.

I appreciate both brands for what they are so I don't really have a dog in this fight but some of the more recent Busse offerings have come a heck of a lot sharper from the factory than many Randalls. Just sayin'.

 

[parkertelmo]

Destruction tests speak for themselves, but Randalls have that classical luster that doesn't really call for chopping cinder blocks.
That being said...I love the fact that my Busses could chop cinder blocks...even if I never have to.

HuntBomb said it all. I just want to add: I want my knife to completely, without a shadow of a doubt, outperform me(out live me too). Busse knives completely fill the hype In My Opinion. When you can buy something that is made 100% in America of 100% american ingenuity the price may be a bit higher but i'd rather spend my hard earned money on that, plus I love knives so there is really nothing else I want to drop cash on more after the bills are paid anyways!

 

[ron_m80]

the only one who validated Richtig's claims were Richtig.

Really?

If you have one of his knives, then let's check it to see if it holds up.

No I don't have one of his knives. You would never "check and see" anything about it if I did, I just don't mind if you doubt the story behind the man or not.

Someone who did collect F.J. Richtig's knives did put one up for testing and posted the results via the web quite a few years ago. I don't know all the details, but I wasn't under the impression that Mr. Richtig's knives were as big as the legend was ever in doubt. Do you have some reason it should be?

 

[Bowxpress]

I doubt it ever would be either because the comparison knife would be to be a custom made to the same blade specs as the Busse.

That said INFI does hold an edge very well, it likes a coarser edge.

Every INFI I've had lost its edge rather quickly, the closest comparison geometry wise was the S5 models. 101 stomped infi in edge retention about 6 to 1 -- 5 blades of each were tested. - from factory to different angles- ease of cutting improved while edge retention suffered.

thick edge spines make for tough blades.. our press sheers made of A2 steel cut steel all day everyday, 4-5 thousand 1/4" pieces, I'm sure INFI would suffer the same fate as any other steel that passed though there, that being said- anything over 7" blade INFI would be my pick.

 

[willis]

The 440-b steel in the model 14 pictured above was used to hack the end off of that limb it is posed on(though nowhere near as fast as the dedicated choppers that Ethan Becker and Moosez45 were testing that day)and would still shave arm hair easily.It was fairly dull after debarking a 5' long 6" thick walnut limb,but the bark was full of dirt and the wood was hard as a rock after 3 years of seasoning.It was no major chore to get it sharp again using a Norton fine India benchstone.The model 26 beside it is in O-1 and field dressed the 8 pointer pictured below(I skinned it using a Bob Dozier skinner)and was used to get all the meat off the carcass.It was stropped on a canvas strop afterwards.

That is pretty good for old fashioned steel that is "poorly heat treated"and satisfies me.I have never used a Busse blade,but I did handle a Battle Mistress one time.It sure was a beast,it had a wierd terraced blade(i think Moosez45 called them whale baffles)with a beautiful convex edge.I would love to have put that thing use to see how well INFI performed.Alas the owner got so drunk that first night that he did not get out of his hammock til 36 hours later and everyone was packing up to go home.

 

[sodak]

No I don't have one of his knives. You would never "check and see" anything about it if I did, I just don't mind if you doubt the story behind the man or not.

Someone who did collect F.J. Richtig's knives did put one up for testing and posted the results via the web quite a few years ago. I don't know all the details, but I wasn't under the impression that Mr. Richtig's knives were as big as the legend was ever in doubt. Do you have some reason it should be?

Yes. I guess that was my point. I've read a lot of articles about Richtig, his knives, and "magic" heat treat, but have yet to see any published test results that have been verified. It was all "I knew this guy who said that Richtig could...." word of mouth. If you have something that was independently verified, I'd be very interested in seeing it. Frank's magic heat treat seemed to have died with him, I remember that he was working with low to medium carbon steels.

Unless there is some evidence out there, I'm very skeptical.

 

[ron_m80]

Yes. I guess that was my point. I've read a lot of articles about Richtig, his knives, and "magic" heat treat, but have yet to see any published test results that have been verified. It was all "I knew this guy who said that Richtig could...." word of mouth. If you have something that was independently verified, I'd be very interested in seeing it. Frank's magic heat treat seemed to have died with him, I remember that he was working with low to medium carbon steels.



Unless there is some evidence out there, I'm very skeptical.

You haven't been looking very hard. Skepticism in the presence of proof has other names. You have to pay for them, but I fhink the results are out there on the internet. There isn't much you can't discover or learn on the internet.

 

[hardheart]

I posted a link to the paper on the Richtig knives a while ago - http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-it-actually-possible-for-a-knife-to-do-this?

and finally paid for/downloaded the paper. Waited three years and burned thirty bucks just to confirm my speculation - low temp austenization followed by 300-400 degree austemper is assessed to be the reason Richtig's knives were so tough. The microstructure and properties of two Richtig knives were compared to 52100 treated by austemper and Q&T.

Totally off the subject, but I wanted to finally address such the old topic without bumping it.

 

[jdm61]

The low temperature austenization of 52100 (as in around 1475F) is no big secret. 52100 is one of those steels that you can "play" with if you are careful and screw up very easily if you are not. From what I have been told by a number of guys way smarter than me in these matters, the key is to limit the amount of carbon that goes into solution so you have plenty left over to form all of those nice super fine little carbides and also have very fine aus-grain in the matrix(makes for toughness) and little or no retained austenite (makes for a not so tough blade if'n you have it) I am not sure what a 300 degree austemper would do for any carbon steel that hadn't already been done during the normalizing and austenizing processes as, IIRC, 300 is well below the MF point and as such, perhaps not an austemper at all. Now 400 might work and allow you to form a little bit of bainite in the process IF you were using a deep hardening steel from what I am told, but the bainite vs. tempered martensite discussion is an argument for another time.....and with someone other than me who is more knowledgeable . LOL. As for Mr. Richtig doing this kind of thing with 1095, that would be tough because you really need to quench it fast!!!! He may have just been doing a really good HT at a time when most folks weren't. 54-55RC from O1 was good enough for Bo Randall and Randall still does that today. A number of carbon steels can do the bolt cutting trick. Bob Kramer did it with a 52100 kitchen knives with a slightly thicker than normal edge on camera for CBS News and I have also seen it done with CruForgeV.

I posted a link to the paper on the Richtig knives a while ago - http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-it-actually-possible-for-a-knife-to-do-this?

and finally paid for/downloaded the paper. Waited three years and burned thirty bucks just to confirm my speculation - low temp austenization followed by 300-400 degree austemper is assessed to be the reason Richtig's knives were so tough. The microstructure and properties of two Richtig knives were compared to 52100 treated by austemper and Q&T.

Totally off the subject, but I wanted to finally address such the old topic without bumping it.

 

[dingy]

Every INFI I've had lost its edge rather quickly, the closest comparison geometry wise was the S5 models. 101 stomped infi in edge retention about 6 to 1 -- 5 blades of each were tested. - from factory to different angles- ease of cutting improved while edge retention suffered.

thick edge spines make for tough blades.. our press sheers made of A2 steel cut steel all day everyday, 4-5 thousand 1/4" pieces, I'm sure INFI would suffer the same fate as any other steel that passed though there, that being said- anything over 7" blade INFI would be my pick.

hi, man , i wanna know that whole of your infi using story , especially i mean this part of "Every INFI I've had lost its edge rather quickly" ,please put some more detailed stuff in . thanks


i often heard some people complained about his busse knife's poor retetion ,but i get nothing from their posts , usually no real experience、no pics ```. just plain complain.


dingy



ps:i asked twl for buying his fragile busse knife in this thread and mailed words to him, but i get nothing from him .

 

[hardheart]

The temps in the paper are in Celcius, not Fahrenheit. The conclusion may be wrong, but probably not from lack of analysis. The composition was measured with emission spectrography, the microstructures viewed at 2500x and 5000x magnification, the hardness measured in multiple locations on the blades (down into the 30s at the spine), and the tensile stress-strain measured. What was found is that the 1090/1095 blades had similar proeutectoid carbides, stress-strain curves, and work hardening as the austempered 52100. The process is not novel today, but Richtig was already renowned for his knives by the time the metallurgists Bain and Davenport introduced the process, and this all happened some 80 years ago.

 

[sodak]

You haven't been looking very hard. Skepticism in the presence of proof has other names. You have to pay for them, but I fhink the results are out there on the internet. There isn't much you can't discover or learn on the internet.

And you have it backwards. If you want to make a claim, then it's incumbent upon you to back it up, not on someone asking questions.

Thanks Hardheart, that's just what I was looking for!

 

[ron_m80]

And you have it backwards. If you want to make a claim, then it's incumbent upon you to back it up, not on someone asking questions.

Thanks Hardheart, that's just what I was looking for!

Generally, except that F.J. Richtig's work is generally accepted fact. What is not known is how he did it exactly.