Is Busse the new Randall?

[MikeC]

The second post on the FIRST page answered the question, "only time will tell", the question posed by the OP has very little if anything to do with the next seven pages of mines better than yours, boutique steels, budget knives, etc.

The whole question from the way I understood it was about two knife brands one old line family owned company with a company history as well as product history that is impressive to say the lest, the other while yes having been around since the late 80's has not been around for nearly as long the first company so it is the new comer in this situation. So basically 50 or so years from now do you think Busse will be considered historically on the same footing as Randall.

If Busse continues to be a family run affair as is Randall and it is continued to be run as it is now and has been for quite sometime now then I think Busse while not the new Randal will be on the same plane as Randall in terms of respect and prominence in the knife industry. Busse is now the new Randall as Randall because of when and where they came along in relation to chronological time had the opportunity to do some things first in the knife industry, to be sure Busse is on their way and has made some contributions to the industry but again only time will tell. That said judging by what Busse, et al. has done thus far I would say that the probability is such it will be considered along side say Randall in terms of prominence in the knife industry.

 

[Samael]

Well, thank you, Mike.

 

[Hadji Flip Me Over]

I think they're well on the right track to pseudo-immortality as far as knives are concerned.

 

[shunsui]

Personally I prefer the "mine's better than yours" arguments offered, to the vague idea that 75 years of drinking the Kool-Aid trumps 25 years of drinking the Kool-Aid.

 

[jdm61]

Arguably, for the first 40 or so years that Randall was around, there was no Kool Aid involved. They were among the best knives that you could find.

Personally I prefer the "mine's better than yours" arguments offered, to the vague idea that 75 years of drinking the Kool-Aid trumps 25 years of drinking the Kool-Aid.

 

[jdm61]

Gator, O1 is not what you would call a truly "simple" carbon steel with low wear resistance assuming you treat it right. The issue with Randall is that they don't IMO.

Dunno what constitutes "nice working edge", but regardless, whatever edge you have, will degrade faster on softer steels, i.e. you have to restore it more often, i.e. remove more metal, etc. There is no other way around it. Simple carbon steels also have very low wear resistance, which also increases edge degradation rate when cutting abrasive materials.
Besides, what or who defines what is a "reasonably" sharp edge? Sharper knife cuts better, it's as simple as that. Once you give up sharpness or edge durability for one reason or another, the argument "budget knife can do everything just as well as high end knives" doesn't hold much water.


Not really. Can't comment on chopping, but I have plenty of knives that will both, outcut and outlast any of the steels you mentioned not just 5x1, but even at a larger margin, and with thinner edges a well. AUS8, or 4116 or 1075 will not hold 10 inclusive edge and be able to cut with it any amount of time. 4116 I'm quite familiar with, tons of western kitchen knives are made out of if, Aogami 1, Aogami 2, ZDP-189, all outlast it with considerably thinner edges from 10 to 20 inclusive. As for slicing cardboard, rope, etc, comparing Vanadis 4E, CPM 110V or S125 to the alloys you listed isn't even fair. 5x is a very generous estimate(for budget alloys)
I figure, you and many others will say 10 inclusive is way too thin, but again, it seems too thin only because mainstream knives can't do it and we accept mainstream as average or good. It isn't problematic to use, cuts a lot better than 30 inclusive and very easy to restore/maintain.
Yes, they are more expensive and price / performance ration may not be as big as the price difference, but the fact is budget knives don't perform at that level. They have their place and price advantage, but to claim equal or comparable performance is unfair, misleading, etc. That's pretty much the only point I have.



I am saying that 400$+ knife can be expensive because of different reasons. Some as you mentioned try to squeeze every once of performance, and that comes at a high price, others are expensive because of the brand, art, whatever... Going with generic statements that X budget knife performs like any 400$ knife doesn't tell anything.




Same here, I was not referring to any brand specifically.


Yeah, I know. And sometimes budget steel fans do exactly the same. Doesn't have to be brand affiliated you know It's negative from either side.

 

[Gator97]

Gator, O1 is not what you would call a truly "simple" carbon steel with low wear resistance assuming you treat it right. The issue with Randall is that they don't IMO.

I don't. Point I was making, O1 at 56-58HRC is not "the extreme performance" that would explain high price tag on Randalls.

 

[Samael]

What "high price tag?" Maybe I'm privileged, but I don't considerr $365 (for a stock model 1) or $385 (for a model 14) to be all that high. Suure, as you add on other options, the price can go up — and sometimes way up — but that's not a crazy price for a knife these days.

 

[Gator97]

As we all agreed, expensive (especially in relation materials, performance, etc) is highly subjective. 4-5" Randals(skinners, hunters) go for about 350-360. I could get a custom from O1, at pretty much half the price and definitely not 56HRC. Hence my conclusion - high price. Other factors don't really matter to me to justify(or make me feel right about) the price.

 

[jdm61]

Try closer to 54-55Rc traditionally. The only steel they use that might make it to 58Rc is there 440A that they use in the stainless knives.Their pricing is based in part on the labor that goes into the knife. They do that part well. As I said before, a relatively simple change in their heat treat for their carbon blades and a switch in the stainless that they use, even to something that is still simple and relatively cheap like one of the Uddeholm razor steels (assuming proper HT), would bump them up the performance ladder quite a bit IMO.

I don't. Point I was making, O1 at 56-58HRC is not "the extreme performance" that would explain high price tag on Randalls.

 

[Gator97]

Well, that'd move price from expensive to crazy expensive then. Dunno, Randall doesn't list RC on their site, and I figured o1 was the same. Although, when it comes to the ranges, large knives tend to be on the lower end. As it is, they have no reason to change anything. People are lining up for their knives...

 

[hstdist]

The second post on the FIRST page answered the question, "only time will tell", the question posed by the OP has very little if anything to do with the next seven pages of mines better than yours, boutique steels, budget knives, etc.

The whole question from the way I understood it was about two knife brands one old line family owned company with a company history as well as product history that is impressive to say the lest, the other while yes having been around since the late 80's has not been around for nearly as long the first company so it is the new comer in this situation. So basically 50 or so years from now do you think Busse will be considered historically on the same footing as Randall.

If Busse continues to be a family run affair as is Randall and it is continued to be run as it is now and has been for quite sometime now then I think Busse while not the new Randal will be on the same plane as Randall in terms of respect and prominence in the knife industry. Busse is now the new Randall as Randall because of when and where they came along in relation to chronological time had the opportunity to do some things first in the knife industry, to be sure Busse is on their way and has made some contributions to the industry but again only time will tell. That said judging by what Busse, et al. has done thus far I would say that the probability is such it will be considered along side say Randall in terms of prominence in the knife industry.

That is what I was wondering and eloquently put and I agree with this

 

[jdm61]

Moving from 440A to something like 13C26 or 19C27 would increase their cost by what? A couple of bucks per blade if that? The cost of upping the hardness on the O1 blades would be anywhere from nothing to a few bucks worth of electricity or propane. But, like you said, no need to change anything. As a matter of fact, in recent years, they have actually reduced the number of custom options that you can order.

Well, that'd move price from expensive to crazy expensive then. Dunno, Randall doesn't list RC on their site, and I figured o1 was the same. Although, when it comes to the ranges, large knives tend to be on the lower end. As it is, they have no reason to change anything. People are lining up for their knives...

 

[OldPhysics]

What "high price tag?" Maybe I'm privileged, but I don't considerr $365 (for a stock model 1) or $385 (for a model 14) to be all that high. Suure, as you add on other options, the price can go up — and sometimes way up — but that's not a crazy price for a knife these days.

I agree.

I've handled a number of Randalls, though I don't own one at the moment. Excellent knives. I don't see them as over-priced.

Over-timed, yes! Takes way too long to order one. But that's the way the world turns.

 

[Ankerson]

As we all agreed, expensive (especially in relation materials, performance, etc) is highly subjective. 4-5" Randals(skinners, hunters) go for about 350-360. I could get a custom from O1, at pretty much half the price and definitely not 56HRC. Hence my conclusion - high price. Other factors don't really matter to me to justify(or make me feel right about) the price.

The interesting thing for me is that Randall is still using the same steel as it has used forever now.

Looking at the progression of steels used in knives just in the last 20 years one can sit back and and go HMMMMM......

That's not to say there is a problem with their knives because there isn't and it seems they haven't had to change with the rest of the industry.

What it comes down to is what people would want, need, and or expect performance wise from their knives.

If they are being used and looking at some of their models being cutters there are other options with steels that are better for that than O1 is.

Then we read fiction about knives in low alloy steels performing feats that just aren't realistic based on the alloy content of those said steels. Not everyone who likes knives are complete idiots who will just believe anything that is said or written because they are smart enough to do their research and learn to get past the hype and BS.

Making up stories about performance to justify their choice or to sell knives isn't a good thing for the knife industry as a whole because the truth will come out as it always does.

Well informed people have to ask a few questions before buying into the hype:

Performance compared to what exactly?

What knives are being compared exactly and that is huge?

Basically people need to grill those people to get to the truth before they lay down some hard earned cash.

If the said people start talking around in circles one needs to move on and look someplace else.

 

[Samael]

You know, for a knife with such "crappy," "inferior" steel, an awful lot of people have been using Randalls for an awful lot of years now (for just about everything imaginable), and yet I still haven't heard one single complaint from any of them. Funny how that works.

 

[Ankerson]

You know, for a knife with such "crappy," "inferior" steel, an awful lot of people have been using Randalls for an awful lot of years now (for just about everything imaginable), and yet I still haven't heard one single complaint from any of them. Funny how that works.

That's why I posted this:

That's not to say there is a problem with their knives because there isn't and it seems they haven't had to change with the rest of the industry.

What it comes down to is what people would want, need, and or expect performance wise from their knives.

 

[Gator97]

...
Performance compared to what exactly?

What knives are being compared exactly and that is huge?

Basically people need to grill those people to get to the truth before they lay down some hard earned cash.

We can't As some complained in this thread, when comparing knives and their alleged performance, especially when it comes to legendary knives like Randall, we can not get pedantic and ask for exact numbers and such... Not cool you know. Evaluations need to be done purely on "feelings" and stories about them.

You know, for a knife with such "crappy," "inferior" steel, an awful lot of people have been using Randalls for an awful lot of years now (for just about everything imaginable), and yet I still haven't heard one single complaint from any of them. Funny how that works.

1) 440A performance as a knife steel was a better compared to other stainless alloys available for knifemaking 40-50 years ago...
2) Awful lot of people don't even know how to sharpen their knife, and yet, they are doing "fine" for themselves with their kitchen knives for years(440A or worse) Hardly an argument to support their performance.
3) I have no real data on how Randalls are used. Can't comment on "everything imaginable".
4) I suppose, the fact that you haven't heard complaint about Randalls could be caused by many things Such as, said complaints are sent to Randall Co, or you missed them, or folks don't really use them, or refrain to complain about a legend, or finally everyone who wanted Randall 440A or O1 is just happy with it and never complain.

Point is, it doesn't matter whether they complain or not, it won't change steel properties. Fact is that 440A is low level of performance compared to many, or majority of stainless steels used in knives today. If someone wants O1 at 54-56HRC and is happy with its performance, at that price, good for them, I have no problem with any of that, but saying that 440A can perform on the level of modern stainless steels(save for very corrosive environments) is laughable, just like the stories about knives used for years and never needing sharpening...

 

[Mack]

When Guy Clark writes a song about "The Busse Knife" then perhaps we can talk.

 

[Ankerson]

We can't As some complained in this thread, when comparing knives and their alleged performance, especially when it comes to legendary knives like Randall, we can not get pedantic and ask for exact numbers and such... Not cool you know. Evaluations need to be done purely on "feelings" and stories about them.


1) 440A performance as a knife steel was a better compared to other stainless alloys available for knifemaking 40-50 years ago...
2) Awful lot of people don't even know how to sharpen their knife, and yet, they are doing "fine" for themselves with their kitchen knives for years(440A or worse) Hardly an argument to support their performance.
3) I have no real data on how Randalls are used. Can't comment on "everything imaginable".
4) I suppose, the fact that you haven't heard complaint about Randalls could be caused by many things Such as, said complaints are sent to Randall Co, or you missed them, or folks don't really use them, or refrain to complain about a legend, or finally everyone who wanted Randall 440A or O1 is just happy with it and never complain.

Point is, it doesn't matter whether they complain or not, it won't change steel properties. Fact is that 440A is low level of performance compared to many, or majority of stainless steels used in knives today. If someone wants O1 at 54-56HRC and is happy with its performance, at that price, good for them, I have no problem with any of that, but saying that 440A can perform on the level of modern stainless steels(save for very corrosive environments) is laughable, just like the stories about knives used for years and never needing sharpening...

I don't believe Samael was boasting about performance, I don't remember ever reading a post ever that he was.

I would agree that complaints would go directly to Randall, although I have seen some things that have been questioned from time to time in the forums over the years.

I also agree given as you said most kitchen knives are in lower alloy steels.... Even some that are on the more expensive side so that doesn't really translate into performance taking into count most people don't know how to sharpen a knife or just plain don't sharpen their kitchen knives.

Also interesting to note that people bash the heck out of AUS-8 and CS for using it and say their knives cost too much, but it's fine for Randall to use 440A and O1.

Also some extremely well known Custom knife makers have been and still are using some pretty low alloy steels in their knives and demand some VERY high prices for those said knives and boasts of high performance also.

Something to think about there....