Is cpm 3v if heat treated right as tough as 5160

[Mecha]

That's exactly what it is, which is how they can change the composition and still call it infi. No one except Jerry busse and his steel supplier can say what his steel is today, anyone who says different is a liar.

Unless they grind off the paint and put the blade into a mass spectrometer.

 

[stonproject]

You still haven't found a difference between A8 mod and Infi. I explained this earlier in the thread.

Hes trying to compare variances in carbon content in 1050 and 1060 to trace amounts of manganese that may or may not be present in infi steel

 

[shinyedges]

Unless they grind off the paint and put the blade into a mass spectrometer.

I wish they would.. I actually looked at the testers. Quite expensive for the hobbyist knife guy.

 

[shinyedges]

Hes trying to compare variances in carbon content in 1050 and 1060 to trace amounts of manganese that may or may not be present in infi steel

Wrong.

Si .32
C .14
Mo .45

Those aren't trace quantities, they're larger differences than between 1050 and 1060.. try reading.

 

[stonproject]

3 of the 440c batches have slight variations in % of elements yet remain as 440c.

 

[shinyedges]

3 of the 440c batches have slight variations in % of elements yet remain as 440c.

Those are closer in composition than A8 mod to infi. What is the tolerance for a given steels element make up? +/- what % at what percentage does it become something else?

I ask because many steels are closer related than A8 mod and infi yet that have their own designation... That's a fact.

 

[shinyedges]

Look at the difference between these percentages... Yet they are not lumped under one steel are they?

 

[stonproject]

What is the tolerance for a given steels element make up? +/- what % at what percentage does it become something else?

Do you mean what are acceptable variations in compositions of steel before a steel is classified as something else? I don't think theres a cut and dry answer for that.

 

[shinyedges]

Do you mean what are acceptable variations in compositions of steel before a steel is classified as something else? I don't think theres a cut and dry answer for that.

Yes, we know small % changes behavior of the steel. Hence why we don't lump everything under one steel when they are similar. Ignoring the element difference and calling them the same or identical just isn't true.

D2 has a tolerance range and the chinese d2 is said to have a discernable difference than other manufacturers d2. Obviously tons of steels are close in composition but have their own names... For a reason.

 

[hugofeynman]

I'd not expect you to understand logic considering your irrational fear of particle steels, any way I posted the element difference between both steels just above. They happen to be significantly larger than the difference between 1050 and 1060..

Hmm... Facts.. darn!

I just said that pm steels are not my top choice for survival/big knives, although I do have some big heavy choppers in Vanadis 4 extra and in Caldie steel (ESR). The knives in my avatar are a 20” long Vanadis 4 extra monster and the “smaller” is a Caldie beast, both hardened to 61+ hrc. They perform very well and can chop anything I want to, but those are really thick knives (over 1/2” thick) and I asked for the edges to be thick, for extra safety preventing chipping. This are “silly” knives, too heavy to walk in the field.
In the field, I much prefer something in K600, A8mod, Infi, S1, 5160, because these steels are easier to sharpen and will take a beating, if needed, without chipping or breaking. I’m sorry if I’m repeating myself, it’s bed time here in Portugal.

 

[hugofeynman]

I'm gonna send @Larrin a heat-treated toughness test tab of 89.5 Ti 10Nb 0.5Fe Mechatanium to test on his toughness tester, and everyone is gonna CRAP themselves when the swinging hammer thing won't even get past the test tab. Now that's tough. Mecha Tough. ®©™℗

Great, Mecha! Let’s see what that Titanium can handle against my Ultrafort steel. If needed, I can send him some H11 ESR heat treated with low temper and deep cryo, or some K600 full bainitic structure (takes almost 40 hours to completely transform to bainite!), but I think Larrin doesn’t want steels below 57-58hrc, I think.

I usually don’t care about that, but what hrc value can that Titanium achieve?

 

[me2]

D2 is an interesting example. It has a lot of variation from different manufacturers. Another example is L6. Different mills add molybdenum or leave it out. Tool steels in particular can have a wide range of compositions for the same steel designation. W1 and W2 can have a carbon range from below 0.7 to 1.1. The customer orders the carbon range they want for the batch.

 

[hugofeynman]

Lol... I'll send him armor that goes on tanks. I have a laundry list of steels aty disposal, I cut them, after all.

Some Aermet 100? Premomet? Ferrium M54? NC310? Do you have access to that stuff in plate? I’m obsessed with toughness and according to Landes this are the toughest steels available.

 

[Revolverrodger]

Those are closer in composition than A8 mod to infi. What is the tolerance for a given steels element make up? +/- what % at what percentage does it become something else?

I ask because many steels are closer related than A8 mod and infi yet that have their own designation... That's a fact.

So what steel is infi if not a8mod ?

 

[Mecha]

Great, Mecha! Let’s see what that Titanium can handle against my Ultrafort steel. If needed, I can send him some H11 ESR heat treated with low temper and deep cryo, or some K600 full bainitic structure (takes almost 40 hours to completely transform to bainite!), but I think Larrin doesn’t want steels below 57-58hrc, I think.

I usually don’t care about that, but what hrc value can that Titanium achieve?

I was mostly just kidding about the test tab, but it can get up there - high 50s are doable and still make a good knife with fine grain and not be brittle. The results one is looking for in titanium alloy usually don't correlate closely with hardness, and hardness tests are considered fairly useless for assessing the mechanical abilities of a titanium alloy, but these are blades we're talkin' about so hardness does matter more than in a typical titanium structural use. What I'm going for is a certain crystal structure called Alpha Prime on the edge, and a mix of two other phases in the spine and core. With the right polish this can be seen almost like a faint hamon.

Bi-metallic titanium alloy armor plates from Air Force experiments in the 1970s had surface strike plates in the mid- to high 60s bonded to a soft 6al4v plate beneath. The surface plates were brittle and would not make a good blade, while the inner plates were too soft.

The last batch of Siberian Slasher machetes was reading 58 or a little more but I think the diamond penetrator tip of my tester is damaged and the readings are off. When they're finished I want to get the last four slashers tested on a bonafide calibrated tester just for the lolz.

 

[Bigfattyt]

Jerry never said that, and I'm sure there are at least a dozen reasons he chose Infi over every other steel. However, Busse and associated brands certainly prefer to use air hardenable steels. A2, D2, Infi (similar to A8 Mod), and their version of S7 are all air hardenable.

Don't forget CPM154, Elmax, 52100 (they call it modified, and designate it as SR101, and their call S7 SR77 and say it is modified for their uses).
They seem to get extreme performance from a toughness standpoint on everything they use.

So are A8 Mod and S7 well rounded or do they sacrifice properties for toughness?


CPM steels as a group tend to be on the less tough side of things. That is not due to the CPM process, but due to that process being applied to steels which would be too brittle to use if not made using some sort of powder process. I generally prefer medium carbon steels for rough use blades, so that rules out most of the powder steels, with 3V being on the upper limit at 0.8 percent carbon.

I've not seen tests results on A8Mod, but the S7 seems to test as very very tough, but loses points on edge retention and corrosion resistance. It also seems to be less stable at thin/acute edges than some other steels (if memory serves correct).

I guess if I hit a rock while chopping wood, I deserve a hard to repair blade.

I've hit concrete, brick, and stone with edges. The INFI vs small riverstone (embedded in the bottom of the log I was splitting). INFI ended up handling it like a champ, and I was able to restore the edge to shaving with a round, chromed screwdriver! I split the stone in half, about a dime sized stone. I heard and felt it.

The edge on the Large chopper (FBMLE) was thinned out a good bit thinner than factory.

That's peculiar

http://www.steeldata.info/tempering/demo/data/740.html

I can see some similarities, although the infi composition has no MN at all. The percentages are pretty different as well, I'd imagine enough different to make it another alloy?

I seem to remember infi had nitrogen as well. But I don't care to dig for the next 2 hours.

I've used the old INFI, and the new. They feel different, but that is tough to explain. I've sharpened both, and chopped with both.

I've seen destruction testing with both (they may be onto than two versions, because I've seen original recipe, extra crispy, and modified or M-INFI). The steel does amazing at destruction testing. Just stupendous. But it is not high on edge retention from abrasion resistsnce.
I saw a composition test with supposedly new INFI with no Nitrogen showing in the test, but I don't know at what levels the test would not show nitrogen. It is supposedly less likely to show up in the type of tests used, due to lower atomic weight (but that may be garbage).

http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=infi

I can say I've used Modern Infi, old INFI (some of the earliest). I've also used it at higher hardness than standard. I've been impressed with it in use for choppers, and "hard use". I've damaged it a few times and had surprises at the ease of fixing it (and the low level of damage) usually having to remove way less metal to fix than I'm expecting. I've not had any chipping. Only a dent, a nd minor rolling that were fixable, and steeled out (and seemed just as stable as before the damage).

Great corrosion resistance in the satin finish, and in my stripped models.

I've also used Busse and Swamp Rats in SR101 (Busse/Swamprat "modified" 52100) and have been very impressed!!! (Outside the weakest point of 52100 which is its penchant for rust/discoloration) I may like it more than Busse's INFI.

I like the higher hardness INFI more than softer run regular infi (
60-62 range vs 58-60 rc). There are some early high hardness Battle Misteresses that had 62 or 63?? Rc.

I've sold off all my INFI, and now have only one Busse, in SR101 (not because I did not love them, but I wanted other toys, including customs in 3V, etc.
I'm no expert.

 

[Mecha]

...snip...

I've used the old INFI, and the new. They feel different, but that is tough to explain.

...snip...

How does the new INFI taste and smell compared to the old INFI?

 

[Bigfattyt]

How does the new INFI taste and smell compared to the old INFI?

Can't say....but not because I have not licked new INFI...but because I did not lick the old INFI.

 

[Mecha]

Can't say....but not because I have not licked new INFI...but because I did not lick the old INFI.

You're a good sport.

 

[ScooterG]

Don't forget CPM154, Elmax, 52100 (they call it modified, and designate it as SR101, and their call S7 SR77 and say it is modified for their uses).
They seem to get extreme performance from a toughness standpoint on everything they use.



I've not seen tests results on A8Mod, but the S7 seems to test as very very tough, but loses points on edge retention and corrosion resistance. It also seems to be less stable at thin/acute edges than some other steels (if memory serves correct).



I've hit concrete, brick, and stone with edges. The INFI vs small riverstone (embedded in the bottom of the log I was splitting). INFI ended up handling it like a champ, and I was able to restore the edge to shaving with a round, chromed screwdriver! I split the stone in half, about a dime sized stone. I heard and felt it.

The edge on the Large chopper (FBMLE) was thinned out a good bit thinner than factory.



I've used the old INFI, and the new. They feel different, but that is tough to explain. I've sharpened both, and chopped with both.

I've seen destruction testing with both (they may be on Korean than two versions).
I saw a composition test with supposedly new INFI with no Nitrogen showing in the test, but I don't know at what levels the test would not show nitrogen. It is supposedly less likely to show up in the type of tests used, due to lower atomic weight (but that may be garbage).

http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=infi

I can say I've used Modern Infi, old INFI (some of the earliest). I've also used it at higher hardness than standard. I've been impressed with it in use for choppers, and "hard use". I've damaged it a few times and had surprises ar the ease of fixing it, usually having to remove way less metal to fix than I'm expecting. I've not had any chipping. Only a dent, a nd minor rolling that were fixable, and steeled out (and seemed just as stable as before the damage).

Great corrosion resistance in the satin finish, and in my stripped models.

I've also used Busse and Swamp Rats in SR101 (Busse/Swamprat "modified" 52100) and have been very impressed!!! (Outside the weakest imprint of 52100 which is its penchant for rust/discoloration) I may like it more than Busse's INFI.

I like the higher hardness INGI more than softer run regular infi (
60-62 range vs 58-60 rc). There are some early high hardness Battle Misteresses that had 62 or 63?? Rc.

I've sold off all my INFI, and now have only one Busse, in SR101 (not because I did not love them, but I wanted other toys, including customs in 3V, etc.
I'm no expert.

There’s a lot in this post.

I’ll summarize by saying 52100