- Joined
- Mar 30, 2000
- Messages
- 71
Pssst...MM go over and look at "Animal, puts his money where his mouth is" thread. I know the bay area is a haul from LA, but you might want to come and play.
Is Filipino the best?
- Thread starter Chariot
- Start date
Pssst...MM go over and look at "Animal, puts his money where his mouth is" thread. I know the bay area is a haul from LA, but you might want to come and play.
- Joined
- Nov 22, 1998
- Messages
- 687
Yep, I've seen it and I'm even more interested than before. I might just have to hop on the bike and take a cruise up the coast to check this out.
------------------
Megafolder Fans Unite!
Mike Melone
"Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle. " Psalm 144:1
"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them." Thomas Jefferson
- Joined
- Oct 16, 1998
- Messages
- 2,395
In response to MM(not Animal):
I've said it before and I will say it again, a blanket criticism of traditional FMA training on the grounds that it is unsuited to the street is not valid.
Animal's specific criticisms of certain training methods may be valid, but only to the extent that either the practitioner or the instructor fails to put the method into the context of reality. A static drill is not intended to teach one everything about self defense. Usually, they are intended to ingrain certain techniques into muscle memory, develop timing, and teach flow and relaxation which is the foundation for speed. Distancing, power, dealing with the psycological reactions, you learn by more dynamic exercises and sparring.
I can't speak for every FMA school on the planet, but in my school, we drill regularly in blocking, parying, evading an attack, and countering, either with a weapon, or empty handed. The strategy is dealing with a committed attack in such a way as to create the opening for an effective and immediate counter attack. The heritage of the systems comes down through Angel Cabales and partially through Leo Giron, as well as Max Sermiento. GM Cabales, for better or worse, had a very successful "career" in individual combat. GM (not sure of his actual title) Giron used his system extensively, and in the utlimately realistic sense, in the mountains of the Philippines during WWII. The systems are conceived and rooted in actual fighting and living in combat with blades as experienced by the man who taught the man who is teaching me, not through the dilution of five hundred year old traditions for the purpose of instilling nationalistic pride in public school children.
OK, so we are not in the forests of the Philippines. The times have changed, and the system has changed too. GM Sarmiento refined his Kadena de Mano on US streets. It is fundamentally an empty hand style. The drills are primarily focused on the strategy of pary/pary/check/counter-until-enemy-is-done. This is traditional FMA, and it is as reality-based as any martial system I have ever seen.
A blanket criticism of traditional FMA is simply false. If there is valid criticism, it has to be of a particular teaching method in a particular school. A drill that looks dumb, can still be teaching a skill that is better learned in isolation from the chaos of real-time attack and response. It has to be shown that the entire curriculum of a school of FMA never puts the individual skills it teaches into the actual context of real individual combat before the criticism can be valid.
I've said it before and I will say it again, a blanket criticism of traditional FMA training on the grounds that it is unsuited to the street is not valid.
Animal's specific criticisms of certain training methods may be valid, but only to the extent that either the practitioner or the instructor fails to put the method into the context of reality. A static drill is not intended to teach one everything about self defense. Usually, they are intended to ingrain certain techniques into muscle memory, develop timing, and teach flow and relaxation which is the foundation for speed. Distancing, power, dealing with the psycological reactions, you learn by more dynamic exercises and sparring.
I can't speak for every FMA school on the planet, but in my school, we drill regularly in blocking, parying, evading an attack, and countering, either with a weapon, or empty handed. The strategy is dealing with a committed attack in such a way as to create the opening for an effective and immediate counter attack. The heritage of the systems comes down through Angel Cabales and partially through Leo Giron, as well as Max Sermiento. GM Cabales, for better or worse, had a very successful "career" in individual combat. GM (not sure of his actual title) Giron used his system extensively, and in the utlimately realistic sense, in the mountains of the Philippines during WWII. The systems are conceived and rooted in actual fighting and living in combat with blades as experienced by the man who taught the man who is teaching me, not through the dilution of five hundred year old traditions for the purpose of instilling nationalistic pride in public school children.
OK, so we are not in the forests of the Philippines. The times have changed, and the system has changed too. GM Sarmiento refined his Kadena de Mano on US streets. It is fundamentally an empty hand style. The drills are primarily focused on the strategy of pary/pary/check/counter-until-enemy-is-done. This is traditional FMA, and it is as reality-based as any martial system I have ever seen.
A blanket criticism of traditional FMA is simply false. If there is valid criticism, it has to be of a particular teaching method in a particular school. A drill that looks dumb, can still be teaching a skill that is better learned in isolation from the chaos of real-time attack and response. It has to be shown that the entire curriculum of a school of FMA never puts the individual skills it teaches into the actual context of real individual combat before the criticism can be valid.
- Joined
- Nov 22, 1998
- Messages
- 687
Well Steve, that's the beauty part, you can have your opinion and I can have mine. For the record, I'm not condeming FMA entirely. I think there are many valid concepts therein. I also believe there are many concepts that'll get you killed in a street situation. Now I just need to find people who want to work on more and more of the former (regardless of style) and less and less of the latter.
------------------
Mike Melone
"Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle. " Psalm 144:1
"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them." Thomas Jefferson
------------------
Mike Melone
"Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle. " Psalm 144:1
"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them." Thomas Jefferson
- Joined
- Nov 26, 1999
- Messages
- 127
Re: Gunfighters
The words "gunfighter" and "gunfight" were coined by East Coast dime novels. In the Old West the expert gun martial artists were usually just called "gunners" or "shooters" in the local papers, the most dignified term used was "shootists". Most real shoot-outs involved surprise attacks, use of cover and concealment, unequal weapons or numbers, usually weren't the gun duel on main street at high noon!
The words "gunfighter" and "gunfight" were coined by East Coast dime novels. In the Old West the expert gun martial artists were usually just called "gunners" or "shooters" in the local papers, the most dignified term used was "shootists". Most real shoot-outs involved surprise attacks, use of cover and concealment, unequal weapons or numbers, usually weren't the gun duel on main street at high noon!
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2000
- Messages
- 271
Marc,
I just read your post today so pardon the delay in my reply.
I don't see any place where I disagree with your latest point and in fact I think your post and mine are attacking the same problem from different angles. I myself have grown up in a place where knives and guns were carried in public- survived a few knife/gun encounters, yes, they are never pretty and it stinks just being involved in one.
My post was merely to clarify the difference between war and street and yes, I know several folks who play that war gaming stuff and they probably would win strategy wise...heh.
Also some of these 'master knife guys' are self proclaimed, I'd rather take the word of others who aren't part of the same system saying something good about these instructors. There's also of course, the huge gap between a great knife instructor and one who can use a knife well in the street, and as you pointed out if the students can't grasp what the instructor is teaching then it is not going to do them any good on the street.
Gumagalng,
--Rafael--
I just read your post today so pardon the delay in my reply.
I don't see any place where I disagree with your latest point and in fact I think your post and mine are attacking the same problem from different angles. I myself have grown up in a place where knives and guns were carried in public- survived a few knife/gun encounters, yes, they are never pretty and it stinks just being involved in one.
My post was merely to clarify the difference between war and street and yes, I know several folks who play that war gaming stuff and they probably would win strategy wise...heh.
Also some of these 'master knife guys' are self proclaimed, I'd rather take the word of others who aren't part of the same system saying something good about these instructors. There's also of course, the huge gap between a great knife instructor and one who can use a knife well in the street, and as you pointed out if the students can't grasp what the instructor is teaching then it is not going to do them any good on the street.
Gumagalng,
--Rafael--
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2000
- Messages
- 271
To J. Ringo,
Just a minor correction, I went back and checked and I believe Donna was refering to the 64 attacks not templates.
Gumagalng,
--Rafael--
Just a minor correction, I went back and checked and I believe Donna was refering to the 64 attacks not templates.
Gumagalng,
--Rafael--
As far as I am concerned, FMA in the streets is valid because I have heard reliable stories about some Filipino grand/masters here in Manila who were held up by some gang members, who ended up almost killing them. I must mention GM Benjamin Luna Lema of Lightning Scientific Arnis/Lema Scientific Kali Arnis who beat the crap out of three or four knife-wielding robbers who held him up in Tondo district in Manila. They ended up literally crawling to the hospital. GM Lema was armed with just an umbrella, and he had to use the bad guys'knives against themselves.
Then there is Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje, Jr. of Pekiti Tirsia Kali. And Tuhon Bill McGrath who figured in some streetfights wherein they disarmed their opponents. GT Gaje disarmed a group of subway robbers in Queens, New York City. Tuhon Bill, unarmed, disarmed individual knife-wielders by his lonesome. Now isn't that what we train for? And I chose to study Pekiti Tirsia because Guro Dan Inosanto (friend /disciple of Bruce Lee) studied it himself and had high praises for Pekiti Tirsia as one of the "most realistic and street-effective knife fighting styles he has ever seen" in his life. Enough to study and get certified as a senior instructor in Pekiti Tirsia and to adapt it into his Inosanto Blend. Blame it I guess on Americans not having enough of a street-realistic or martial mindset compared to street-smart Filipinos. True, u Americans have the technology of war which we Flips have to ask ur Congress for donations, but when it comes to nitty-gritty blade fights, then I'd have to say FMA is the way to go. Filipino is the best because my instructors had a long odyssey in other martial arts before they got into FMa and Pekiti Tirsia in particular. Of course, no style is perfect but then as Bruce Lee said, "We all only have two arms and two legs, so how different could our fighting styles get?"
The difference would have to lie in one's conditioning/training/practice levels and of course, a bit of situational luck.
------------------
"The stick is round, the blade is flat." --Leo Gaje, Jr.
Then there is Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje, Jr. of Pekiti Tirsia Kali. And Tuhon Bill McGrath who figured in some streetfights wherein they disarmed their opponents. GT Gaje disarmed a group of subway robbers in Queens, New York City. Tuhon Bill, unarmed, disarmed individual knife-wielders by his lonesome. Now isn't that what we train for? And I chose to study Pekiti Tirsia because Guro Dan Inosanto (friend /disciple of Bruce Lee) studied it himself and had high praises for Pekiti Tirsia as one of the "most realistic and street-effective knife fighting styles he has ever seen" in his life. Enough to study and get certified as a senior instructor in Pekiti Tirsia and to adapt it into his Inosanto Blend. Blame it I guess on Americans not having enough of a street-realistic or martial mindset compared to street-smart Filipinos. True, u Americans have the technology of war which we Flips have to ask ur Congress for donations, but when it comes to nitty-gritty blade fights, then I'd have to say FMA is the way to go. Filipino is the best because my instructors had a long odyssey in other martial arts before they got into FMa and Pekiti Tirsia in particular. Of course, no style is perfect but then as Bruce Lee said, "We all only have two arms and two legs, so how different could our fighting styles get?"
The difference would have to lie in one's conditioning/training/practice levels and of course, a bit of situational luck.
------------------
"The stick is round, the blade is flat." --Leo Gaje, Jr.
2cents for what it's worth. Advice is only good when taken. Choice is what choice is, it makes us all the same. What is best for one person is not best for the other. No matter what, it doesn't matter what art you study. If you do the internal work, then you have a chance to make it work for you, for what ever protection skill you need with a knife.
In the real world no matter what, you can die. That is the truth, you can also choice to live. Make the choice to survive, now matter what.
The Filipino arts are among the hardest as all arts are. You must look first into yourself, decide if you can do the work, then practice, practice, practice.
Nothing matters, except if you practice. For in a real situation, not matter what you studied, if you can protect yourself, you have a chance, if you practice the Filipino arts, you practice with a real weapon, then with a live weapon, if you can do it.
So the thing I find about the Philippine and Indonesian arts, is that they are complete, you get the kicking and punching, and weapons, and footwork, and bodywork development, and stretching, and internal, and soft, and hard, and slow and fast, and take-downs and everything, as you do in every art.
But, in some arts they don't teach that.
The choice of a martial arts, as we know it is survival arts. You practice for the rest of your life.
In the real world no matter what, you can die. That is the truth, you can also choice to live. Make the choice to survive, now matter what.
The Filipino arts are among the hardest as all arts are. You must look first into yourself, decide if you can do the work, then practice, practice, practice.
Nothing matters, except if you practice. For in a real situation, not matter what you studied, if you can protect yourself, you have a chance, if you practice the Filipino arts, you practice with a real weapon, then with a live weapon, if you can do it.
So the thing I find about the Philippine and Indonesian arts, is that they are complete, you get the kicking and punching, and weapons, and footwork, and bodywork development, and stretching, and internal, and soft, and hard, and slow and fast, and take-downs and everything, as you do in every art.
But, in some arts they don't teach that.
The choice of a martial arts, as we know it is survival arts. You practice for the rest of your life.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2000
- Messages
- 271
'Survival arts'... yes, I definitely agree with that. excellent phrase.
--Rafael--
--Rafael--
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2000
- Messages
- 71
Originally posted by Sun Helmet:
Marc,
I don't see any place where I disagree with your latest point and in fact I think your post and mine are attacking the same problem from different angles.
I kind of thought so too. But so often does expertize in one field get mistaken by the 'expert' into believing said expertize extends into another.
I myself have grown up in a place where knives and guns were carried in public- survived a few knife/gun encounters, yes, they are never pretty and it stinks just being involved in one.
You have a gift for understatement
Also some of these 'master knife guys' are self proclaimed, I'd rather take the word of others who aren't part of the same system saying something good about these instructors.
Personally I would prefer if they didn't ride on the laurels of their instructor or on the fact that they "studied" it as automatically translating them into being master knife fighters. Most of the knife work I have seen has been seriously illegal so claiming to be a master knife fighter without admitting to being a criminal or a murderer is kind of odd to me.
There's also of course, the huge gap between a great knife instructor and one who can use a knife well in the street, and as you pointed out if the students can't grasp what the instructor is teaching then it is not going to do them any good on the street.
Actually one of the things I stress most strongly in my classes is DON'T try to do what I can do, learn and perfect what you can do. I've done things to stay alive that I would b***hslap anyone for teaching to a student.
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2000
- Messages
- 71
All of which is fine and dandy, except for one thing. Can you do it?
I am not being sarcastic or disrespectful to the obvious talent of the abovementioned individuals. But what I am asking is "here and now, with the ways and what you are being taught...could you do the same?"
A saying I picked up is: The solution must be time relevant to the needs of the problem.
If it isn't forget it, it is not a solution. One of my major hacks with the martial arts being promoted as "self-defense" is that it is not time relevant to the problem. If you need self-defense you need it NOW! You don't need something that you need to practice for five years before it becomes effective.
Now maybe if you grew up in a barrio in the Philippenes and those first five years were spent as a child doing drills with your uncles and father it would be different.
But as an adult who is walking into my school, if you are concerned about getting jacked on the train platform, you need something a little more immediately effective.
Nobody is denying the effectiveness of the underlying principles behind the FMA, what I am talking about is the current manifestation on how they are being taught.
Have you ever walked into an aikido school? It is interesting to see the difference in teaching techniques. In the aikido schools I have been in, the beginners and advanced students are doing the same moves. You are taught the move right off, now work towards perfecting it. This as opposed to "here are the basics, now we move onto other more cool and flashy stuff."
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2000
- Messages
- 2
Its interesting that nobody in this thread has mentioned the possibility of a novice pulling out a knife, only to be disarmed and then killed with his own knife. It happens. A novice shouldnt cary a knife period, run away, avoid getting into confrontations, give the thug your stuff, whatever.....beats getting killed.
Take the time to learn to use your tool, then carry it, and only use it when your life is in danger. I myself have been mugged while carrying a blade, I had it in my hand in my pocket.There were 3 guys, i gave them my wallet and my shoes. I was barefoot, but I walked away,and thats the bottom line, perdiod.
Take the time to learn to use your tool, then carry it, and only use it when your life is in danger. I myself have been mugged while carrying a blade, I had it in my hand in my pocket.There were 3 guys, i gave them my wallet and my shoes. I was barefoot, but I walked away,and thats the bottom line, perdiod.
- Joined
- Nov 11, 1999
- Messages
- 398
*****
Last edited:
- Joined
- Nov 28, 1999
- Messages
- 235
the comment about you need self defense now (how the philippine fighting arts are taught) is the perfect reason i am so much against the martial art to be taught in seminars and video tapes, and people who do not really look to who is doing what in the philippine arts anyway.
i have to say that 75% of what they teach you is not philippine martial arts, it might be _related_ but it is not what we are doing, they are variations, like you say, "fancy, cool stuff". do you think the reputation of the pilipino fighters was built on _sinawali_ drills? what about those patty cake drills? what about all those abecedarios where a guys is leaving his arm out while the defender blaze him away with ten hits? do you really believe we would have such a reputation with knife techniques where the man stab, and you grab his arm out of thin air?
danny inosanto is originally a kenpo man. then he became wing chun based, jeet kune do. my uncle is one of manong leo giron best friends, and they both tell me, it was kenpo first, "kung fu"(thats what he said), then philippine arts last. you can see those influence so strong in his "philippine empty hands".
remy presas is originally an ARJUKEN KARATE man, ARNIS-JUDO-KENDO-shotokan KARATE. can you not even see it in his movements? and jujitsu?
i can go on with other people who do seminar, especially all those new "Filipino Kuntao" people out there, but that is not my point. my point is people have a twisted idea of the philippine martial arts because of the seminar, and they wont even look to another style from the philippines until one of the famous guys writes an article, or somebody puts a video tape, or starts to do seminars. then when they do look at another philippine style they hold it up to what the popular ones are doing. so many times i am asked "when are we going to do drills?" the knife translates directly to the hands. every authentic style does sinawali (we do not). dumug is philippine grappling (no, that is grappling with a caribao, buno is grappling). we trap like wing chun (no that is anyone who have been expose to danny inosanto style). the highest level of arnis-eskrima is empty hands or espada at daga (not in most styles). kamut is a rare hand to hand combat style(no, that is only if another part of your body is itching all the time). disarming is an important part of training, and most style practice stick to stick, knife to knife (not true in most muslim styles, we do knife or stick against empty hands most of the time, then against other weapons)
everybody, the real philippine art you will learn FULL TIME (not on a two week "train with the masters" trip) you will not spend all your time doing drills, you spend it practicing your hits and hitting patterns, then when you are good at that most of the time sparring). a friend of mine who does seminars (who is from mindanao) told me why he does like everybody and why he is teaching seminars he said, nobody will come to learn if they are perfecting hits because you get to many blisters and its boring, he teaches the seminars because nobody wants full time study, people will travel for a concert. they will travel for schooling, but they will not travel to learn. and he needs to feed his family. he also use the words dumug, pananjakman, etc. why? because people will think you dont know what you are talking about, and they come to you because that is what they read about so he gives it to them. that is sad.
but again i say, the idea in a philippine martial arts school is to make a fighter not a demonstator of fancy drills and ideas. when you see somebody doing all those drills i guarantee you that is where they learn it, or on a two week trip to the p.i., where they SEE you coming, and they know "this guys wants drills".
i have to say that 75% of what they teach you is not philippine martial arts, it might be _related_ but it is not what we are doing, they are variations, like you say, "fancy, cool stuff". do you think the reputation of the pilipino fighters was built on _sinawali_ drills? what about those patty cake drills? what about all those abecedarios where a guys is leaving his arm out while the defender blaze him away with ten hits? do you really believe we would have such a reputation with knife techniques where the man stab, and you grab his arm out of thin air?
danny inosanto is originally a kenpo man. then he became wing chun based, jeet kune do. my uncle is one of manong leo giron best friends, and they both tell me, it was kenpo first, "kung fu"(thats what he said), then philippine arts last. you can see those influence so strong in his "philippine empty hands".
remy presas is originally an ARJUKEN KARATE man, ARNIS-JUDO-KENDO-shotokan KARATE. can you not even see it in his movements? and jujitsu?
i can go on with other people who do seminar, especially all those new "Filipino Kuntao" people out there, but that is not my point. my point is people have a twisted idea of the philippine martial arts because of the seminar, and they wont even look to another style from the philippines until one of the famous guys writes an article, or somebody puts a video tape, or starts to do seminars. then when they do look at another philippine style they hold it up to what the popular ones are doing. so many times i am asked "when are we going to do drills?" the knife translates directly to the hands. every authentic style does sinawali (we do not). dumug is philippine grappling (no, that is grappling with a caribao, buno is grappling). we trap like wing chun (no that is anyone who have been expose to danny inosanto style). the highest level of arnis-eskrima is empty hands or espada at daga (not in most styles). kamut is a rare hand to hand combat style(no, that is only if another part of your body is itching all the time). disarming is an important part of training, and most style practice stick to stick, knife to knife (not true in most muslim styles, we do knife or stick against empty hands most of the time, then against other weapons)
everybody, the real philippine art you will learn FULL TIME (not on a two week "train with the masters" trip) you will not spend all your time doing drills, you spend it practicing your hits and hitting patterns, then when you are good at that most of the time sparring). a friend of mine who does seminars (who is from mindanao) told me why he does like everybody and why he is teaching seminars he said, nobody will come to learn if they are perfecting hits because you get to many blisters and its boring, he teaches the seminars because nobody wants full time study, people will travel for a concert. they will travel for schooling, but they will not travel to learn. and he needs to feed his family. he also use the words dumug, pananjakman, etc. why? because people will think you dont know what you are talking about, and they come to you because that is what they read about so he gives it to them. that is sad.
but again i say, the idea in a philippine martial arts school is to make a fighter not a demonstator of fancy drills and ideas. when you see somebody doing all those drills i guarantee you that is where they learn it, or on a two week trip to the p.i., where they SEE you coming, and they know "this guys wants drills".
- Joined
- Nov 11, 1999
- Messages
- 398
*****
Last edited:
- Joined
- Feb 11, 1999
- Messages
- 568
Kuntawman,
Is there someone that we might have heard of, that you would point to as teaching authentic Philippine Martial Arts?
I realize that drills may not be a traditional part of the Philippine arts, but I do think they serve a purpose (in general), provided one keeps things in perspective and doesn't get caught up in the drill itself. Granted they aren't perfect as a teaching tool, but nothing is.
I also realize that seminars are not an ideal teaching tool either, but in a lot of cases it's the only thing available. Yes you do have to cater to people to a degree if you want to make money on them, but it's your responsibility to be true to your art at the same time. The trick is to acheive a balance that you can live with. I have more of a beef with people like your friend, who teach something that they believe is wrong for the sake of money, than the people who are teaching what they believe to be Philippine martial arts. If he teaches what he believes to be correct, he may not make as much money doing it, but that's what his "day job" is for.
By the way, your friend is wrong ... there are people who want full time study. People who are willing to spar, get blisters and practice boring things like striking patterns and footwork. There are people who want the authentic arts. "If you build it, they will come."
Respectfully,
Dave Fulton
------------------
Full Contact Martial Arts Association.
"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."
If I might interject...I believe Kuntawman has listed some of the organizations he considers to be of the highest caliber on a thread entitled "Other Filipino arts?" Try doing a search to see... (hermano Kuntawman, just trying to help
! Sige na.) That's all, on w/ the discussion...
Rafael: Thank you for the correction, I believe Donna was referring to the attacks.
Donna: Eye popping indeed! Kuntawman, who has always been honest and forthright on these posts has just detonated a bomb!
Considering that the majority of the FMA name teachers in the west coast, if not the entire USA trace their lineage to Presas or Inosanto---at least before a blinding light hit them on the road to Damascus, and a disembodied voice told them that they were THE TRUE INNOVATORS and to head straight on toward Paladin Press headquarters instead--I don't think it's a trivial issue.
If Kuntawman is right , the pattycake drills, and 75% of what we think is FMA, just isn't so.
As to the value of the aforementioned drills, seminars, etc. Dave Fulton rightly points out that they should be examined on their own merits. No argument there.
Still, considering Donna's , Marc Mc Young and many others who have experienced frustration at what seem to be cumbersome or unrealistic moves, taught as FMA in America, the question remains if these schools and instructors are a hodgepodge of Karate, Wing Chun, Ju-jitsu, Kempo and the kitchen sink; or the real deal?
Without getting bogged down into "My style is better than yours", is it possible to get a straight answer?
Respectfully,
JR.
Donna: Eye popping indeed! Kuntawman, who has always been honest and forthright on these posts has just detonated a bomb!
Considering that the majority of the FMA name teachers in the west coast, if not the entire USA trace their lineage to Presas or Inosanto---at least before a blinding light hit them on the road to Damascus, and a disembodied voice told them that they were THE TRUE INNOVATORS and to head straight on toward Paladin Press headquarters instead--I don't think it's a trivial issue.
If Kuntawman is right , the pattycake drills, and 75% of what we think is FMA, just isn't so.
As to the value of the aforementioned drills, seminars, etc. Dave Fulton rightly points out that they should be examined on their own merits. No argument there.
Still, considering Donna's , Marc Mc Young and many others who have experienced frustration at what seem to be cumbersome or unrealistic moves, taught as FMA in America, the question remains if these schools and instructors are a hodgepodge of Karate, Wing Chun, Ju-jitsu, Kempo and the kitchen sink; or the real deal?
Without getting bogged down into "My style is better than yours", is it possible to get a straight answer?
Respectfully,
JR.
- Joined
- Feb 11, 1999
- Messages
- 568
Bayani,
I went back and read the thread you mentioned, but Kuntawman mentioned only a few groups by name. They were: Yaw Yan, PKA (Carlito Lanada's group), Philippine Boxers Academy the Sikaran Org. and Bakbakan. He said that since the 1980's Lanada's people look a lot like Shotokan Karate. He said the the founder of the Boxer Academy had hear of an old style of Philippine boxing but couldn't find anyone who actually knew the art so he pieced it together himself. Also, that the man's son had boxed in the Air Force and brought that style of boxing back which was being incorporated. He remembered that the Sikaran Org people did not look like karate but he couldn't remember if they were any good. He mentioned Bakbakan which is well respected ... enough said, and Yaw Yan which seems fine but isn't my cup of tea personally.
To sum up, he spoke well of only three groups , one of which was admittedly pieced together and so may or may not be accurate/authentic). However, as far as authentic FMA he only actually endorsed Bakbakan. Keep in mind as well that we're talking about authentic FMA, not good MA's. I'll speculate that Kuntawman thinks Leo Giron teaches authentic FMA because of the context in which he mentioned Giron in his post and possibly Pekiti-tirsia since I recall that he has spoken highly Greg Alland in the past.
Kuntawman,
Please correct me if I've misinterpreted anything that you've said. Please also understand that I'm not attacking you personally. You speak your mind without pulling punches and I hope you'll appreciate that I try to do the same.
I think that drills/seminars can be good or bad depending upon how they are done, but my main point is that if you're saying that we (in a collective sense) have a terribly misguided impression of what the FMA are, then I think that you owe it to us to tell us where we can see the "real deal". My other point is that there are people who want the authentic FMA and are willing to do what it takes to learn. I for one checked out every local teacher I could find and I picked the one that I thought was the best. I have in the past (work & family life don't allow it any longer) driven 1+ hours (each way) once a week and 3+ hours (each way - and paid for a hotel room) once a month for training (and trained on my own in between) because they were the best teachers that I could find.
Respectfully,
Dave Fulton
------------------
Full Contact Martial Arts Association.
"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."
I went back and read the thread you mentioned, but Kuntawman mentioned only a few groups by name. They were: Yaw Yan, PKA (Carlito Lanada's group), Philippine Boxers Academy the Sikaran Org. and Bakbakan. He said that since the 1980's Lanada's people look a lot like Shotokan Karate. He said the the founder of the Boxer Academy had hear of an old style of Philippine boxing but couldn't find anyone who actually knew the art so he pieced it together himself. Also, that the man's son had boxed in the Air Force and brought that style of boxing back which was being incorporated. He remembered that the Sikaran Org people did not look like karate but he couldn't remember if they were any good. He mentioned Bakbakan which is well respected ... enough said, and Yaw Yan which seems fine but isn't my cup of tea personally.
To sum up, he spoke well of only three groups , one of which was admittedly pieced together and so may or may not be accurate/authentic). However, as far as authentic FMA he only actually endorsed Bakbakan. Keep in mind as well that we're talking about authentic FMA, not good MA's. I'll speculate that Kuntawman thinks Leo Giron teaches authentic FMA because of the context in which he mentioned Giron in his post and possibly Pekiti-tirsia since I recall that he has spoken highly Greg Alland in the past.
Kuntawman,
Please correct me if I've misinterpreted anything that you've said. Please also understand that I'm not attacking you personally. You speak your mind without pulling punches and I hope you'll appreciate that I try to do the same.
I think that drills/seminars can be good or bad depending upon how they are done, but my main point is that if you're saying that we (in a collective sense) have a terribly misguided impression of what the FMA are, then I think that you owe it to us to tell us where we can see the "real deal". My other point is that there are people who want the authentic FMA and are willing to do what it takes to learn. I for one checked out every local teacher I could find and I picked the one that I thought was the best. I have in the past (work & family life don't allow it any longer) driven 1+ hours (each way) once a week and 3+ hours (each way - and paid for a hotel room) once a month for training (and trained on my own in between) because they were the best teachers that I could find.
Respectfully,
Dave Fulton
------------------
Full Contact Martial Arts Association.
"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."