Is Filipino the best?

Thank you JRF for your clarifications. I do agree that I probably overly responded to your post, because from past experience with other online forums, the thread drifts from one point to the next I merely tried to 'cover' all the bases, so that my point could be clarified better. Again , thank you for allowing me to expand more fully on what you read as 'one-sided' . I'm actually much harsher to Filipinos when I hear certain untruths being stated as fact and attempt to point out or delve deeper into their truths.

As for other FMAs taking from other arts, the problem with that is the FMAs is kinda like a sponge - it must adapt and change to what obstacles it may meet in the future- that is how it survives and still remains viable, they were not dojo based, that's it's advantage and probably where someone who teaches FMAs as a cultural art from someone who teaches it as a self defense art might differ. The present day FMA practitioner should learn what other arts are doing but not stop there and say that is now FMAs... they should not ape the techniques but instead utilise their skills to learn how to counter them or add to them. Not only study what martial artists are doing but what thugs in the alleys and in prisons are doing. Most likely that is where they will be tested, on the street. Personally, I could care less if a kali brother of ours remained pure, just as long as they survive.

Living students - good, dead students- bad.


Respectfully moving on,

--Rafael--

 
Few years ago, the controversial Massad Ayoob published a variant of his "good shooting/ bad shooting" case studies in a gunrag. I should still have the mag.

Ayoob cited several knife self defense incidents and their legal consequences. Of particular interest was a case where an elderly blue collar Filipino immigrant used a pair of knives to shred multiple attackers in American city streets. Both assailants survived, though they required plenty of stitching.

The innocent citizen had to demonstrate his FMA skills in court to prove to the judicial system that his act of self defense arose from a legitimate martial art, not "excessive brutality". If I recall, the fellow's actions were then considered legal.

No idea if there were civil suites filed against him.

And may I offer a tardy, if heartfelt, welcome to Animal and "the other guy". I recently saw their two knifer videos and found them very illuminating; it is one thing to read about close quarter assaults (even in Animal's books), it is another experience to actually watch how swiftly and relentlessly such violations are carried out.

Thus, training for unsporting ambushes, in addition to "duels", would seem to be a major concern. The less macho but critical lessons of awareness and avoidance need emphasis.
Jeff
 
Yes, as a matter of fact the Filipino System is the easiest to learn, hardest to master and the spirit of the fighting blade is well sought after by many martial artsist today.

I have prepared several videos to speed up the process, but training must begin with the basics please see http://KaliSilat.com for more information.

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P. Greg Alland, Master Kali Silat, SinaTirsiaWali at www.KaliSilat.com or www.PekitiTirsia.com
 
Originally posted by tim728:

so I did a little checking to see if there were any good Silat schools and I found that Steve Plink teaches nearby, I have heard his name mentioned before with yours and hear that you think highly of him, He teaches Serak, Could you shed any light on how this differs from the Silat you teach and your opinion about Serak, Vrs. FMA/ muay thai for real self defense? Thanks, Tim
Click to expand...

Hi Tim,

Perhaps I can give you a little help here.Guru Stevan Plinck is without a doubt one of the best Pencak Silat players in America, he's also a very very good teacher. If you have the opportunity to study with him don't hesitate, if he willyou accept you as a student get over there today!

You'll also find that the students in his class are by far some of the nicest people you want to meet.

The last I heard Guru Plinck was planning to close his classes to the public very soon, so I would make contact with as quickly as possible.

I think you'll find what he teaches compares quite favorably to the Thai and Filipino arts.

Richard Dobson
 
i agree that the philippine style is best for fighting on the street because you goal in training is the quickest way and best way to put a man down, and put him down permanently if you have to. there is a lot of styles that think to much about fighting by rounds or for points, but i believe most of them are looking to develop a way to destroy the attacker.

we are technique base styles, not sport base.

we do not believe so much in keeping this art the same for each generation after generation. we evolve.

probably the best weapon to use on the street except a gun is a knife. who can argue that the philippine style does not have the best knife fighting. i have seen "mexican/african/american/european" knife fighting. they are all done by people who have practice before the philippine styles. they are not fooling anybody.

the pilipino and the thai and the vietnamese and the burmese are the only ones out there who have been using a modern-style of boxing for many years. our people have more experience than other arts with this kind of punching.

we also emphasize the toughening of the hand and forearm to be use as weapons instead of breaking wood.

we do not use belts to prove who is better. it is traditional to challenge and beat rather than engage in foolish "oral chess" matches.

okay enough bragging...

anybody disagree or agree?
 
I don't have anything new or super-deep to add to this thread, coz "mga kababayan" (my fellow Pinoys, for ye Tagalog-challenged
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) have been doing a fantastic job of "keeping it real"
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I'd just like to say that I f****ng LOVE this thread and would like to see it continue for as long as the WW2 CQC thread on Guro Bram's forum next door has been raging (and that's a really cool thread, lotsa great info, check it out!) Peace, guys, and--hey, Sun Helmet and kuntawman, WHAZZZUP!!!
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sige na--stay safe,

bayani (Bakbakan Int'l, North America)
 
Oh, yeah, Richard and Marc "The Animal Mack"...(spelling intentional, that's what my friend "Mad Matthewz", calls ya--as in "Mack Daddy", after catchin' yer vids)...you guys rock! Welcome to Bladeforums! Peace.
 
kuntawman, a.k.a. "tellitlikeitisman"

this guy does not mince his words!

(see also, the mousel forum)
 
I'm hope we didn't chase Marc Mc Young from this forum when we took a detour over whether the Spanish conquered all of the Philippines or not, etc, etc.

There are many interesting books on the subject.

( though for my money's worth I'd rather spend it watching Klaus Kinski in "Aguirre: The Wrath of God")

If you're into that sort of thing.

Now then, back to combat . . .

---------------------------------------------
I think in the same way that Kuntaowman is annoyed that so many experts in 'african/mexican--etc.' are really re-hashed and re-named FMA.

(You are sooo right! IMHO )

Which fools no one

(There I have to disagree, it fools a LOT of people or these experts would not have attained NAME status in the public eye)

Mr. Mac Young, is also annoyed that FMA players, who have never been in a knife fight in their lives-- unlike the oldtime FMA ers from back home--consider themselves to be experts, throughsome kind of apostolic succession; "I studied with master X"

The way kali is generally taught does not impress Mr. Mac Young either--as if a police department were teaching gunfighting to cadets by using the Hollywood model of the 'Western Shoot 'em up'.

Imagine a police sargeant telling a class:

" OK now when the bad guys are coming down the street, walk slowly toward them and at about 20 paces, stop, look them in the eye, and as soon as they reach for their guns, beat them to the draw! "

If I comprehend his and Richard's argument, the FMA American style is being taught on the presumption of this kind of scenario---a duel or fight.

(BTW did ANYONE really fight this way in the 'Old West'?--my guess is perhaps one gunfight in a hundred)

Another point which both Donna and I brought up is the 'counter for counter'; the oversophistication of the styles. It seems silly to complain that Karate or Tae Kwon Do have tons of unnecessary techniques-- and that, as everyone knows, 4 or 5 techniques executed as close to perfection are more valuable than a 1,000 mediocre techniques --and then NOT APPLY THAT (JKD?) CONCEPT TO THE FMA.

Abanico? Stripping? Crossada? the 64 templates that Donna finds frustrating (please go back and read her post)

because you'd never do it on the street--but it's somehow building a foundation or just has to be learned because it's the way it's always been done . . .

(Can you say KATA, boys and girls?)

The FMA's were based on combat, not sports as Kuntaowman points out.

Are they still?

Respectfully,

JR




[This message has been edited by J_Ringo (edited 08-21-2000).]
 
So if we validate our blade systems by conquest the US has the best blade system. See how illogical and futile the logic becomes?

Believe it or not I agree with you on this point. However, the reason I do is because of taking that step one point further.

Martial arts means the arts of war...not pugilism. The application of limits to what martial arts means is a false contrivance - and in my opinion done by people who want to convince themselves that their "favored flavor" is the best.

Distance stylists don't like grappling. Grapplers hate the idea that a knife may be involved. FMAers seem to object to the idea that despite their superior knife skills and years of practice a punk with a pistol can blow their brains into a fine pink mist. And gun freaks get real twitchy when you point out that knifer up close will take them. All however are guilty of trying to put artifical limits on the problem - usually where their art falls down in the complicated and dangerous reality of violence, crime and warfare.

In my opinion some of the greatest martial artists in history were Genghis Khan, George Patton, Douglas MacArthur, Rommel, Shaka Zulu, Alexander the Great. The guys who put it down on paper are Sun Tzu, Clauswitz and Machiavelli and Mao Tse Tung.

In a nutshell, victory in war tends to go to the side that can: Effectively inflict the greatest damage at the longest range that is allowed by environment and technology. Maintaining that conquest however is a far more complicated issue, that is where the elements you were talking about come into play.

If you use the literal definition of the word rather than the popularized one, when it comes to understanding the martial arts - Wargamers have a better understanding of things like strategy,technology, logistics and multi-tool tactical application that really go into the elements of warfare. So-called martial artists have chosen one itsy-bitsy- teeny-weenie aspect and blown it out of proportion. Then they bicker over what microbe is better.

The truth of the matter is knife fighting is less an element of the art of war and really the providence of criminals, the poor and the oppressed. People who can afford it, get better weapons. People who can really afford it, get out of that lifestyle.

I had a guy write me about his Godfather, who had managed to get out of the barrio and come to America. He wanted to go back home and show everyone a local boy done well. He went back and got in a jam with some young buck who slashed him so badly that the family had a hard time identifying the body.

Bladework is also like gunfighting in the Old West, it is only the few who survive to old age who acheive fame and noteriaty. The reason being, they are the exception, not the rule. Most die in poverty, squalor and despair.

I think what bothers me the most however is taking this and glorifying it. To take what is in essence a horrible and terrible event and existence and drop all the negative, unpleasant aspects of it and then swagger around with clicking cajones because one is -supposedly - a master of the blade.

And unfortunately, that is what I see a lot of people doing in the United States. They have never been in a knife fight in their lives and they'd probably wet their pants if they ever went into a barrio where it was a normal problem. That's if they didn't get eaten alive.

Putting a blade into another human being sucks. On the other hand, putting it into him to keep him from doing the same to you sucks even worse. It is not something that a sane person would want to do.

In many ways I have the same problem with the emphasis on sanatized "knife fighting" that I do with martial artists insisting that the sum of the martial arts is their form of bare knuckled fighting. It is an artifical limitation on a dangerous, complicated and totally screwed up problem.
 
Marc, I ask this respectfully, after all your fight experience, do you believe carrying a knife is a viable option for the street?
 
Originally posted by Smoke:
Marc, I ask this respectfully, after all your fight experience, do you believe carrying a knife is a viable option for the street?
Click to expand...

Yes it is. It is not however the ultimate answer (There ain't no such critter).Know your tool, know its limits, know its requirements and implications. Know where it works and where it doesn't work. Know what you are most likely to encounter and know if it would work under those cirucmstances.

It is the same with anything that you choose to use. Don't try to force a square peg in a round hole.

Furthermore, don't think of it as a fighter, think of it as a tool. That is what you are going to be using it as more of than a weapon. Your greatest weapon is your brain and common sense.

 
Thank you Marc.

I just wanted some clarity is all as there are some good martial artists who've studied weapons and choose not to carry one.

A lot of folks on this forum have taken a lot of trash from others both in real life and the Net. Stuff like 'knives/weapons are for wimps or psychopaths, not real people'.
The same divisive comments that only people who train are concerned with.
 
Hi,

I've just read the whole thread, and found it very enjoyable, enlightening and interesting.

My question for the group, somewhat related to the very realistic and well-chosen "100yd dash method" of unarmed against the knife:

What are your thoughts about facing an attack =against= possibly a tire iron, short metal baseball bat, or a folder if you happened to have a 'stick' in your hand?

Do you think what is trained in the FMA and related arts would realistically work as "single stick vs an aggressive, experienced, but untrained individual with a weapon" in a typical confrontation? If so, to what degree, and what would be your basic line of application (hit the hand; big toe; left temple; ward off; keep away; or other?)

Thanks, and keep up the great posts.

-B


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Life is but a brief window of opportunity.
 
OK, just re-read my post, and I realize, there are no 'typical' confrontations, and no typical responses that are 'best', and that defusing the situation is always the best first option.

So I'm just inviting some casual thoughts on the scenario posted, any actual experiences that worked, or caveats/things to look out for if this happens, and some typical thoughts about FMA style response using a single stick against some of the common weapons out there.

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Life is but a brief window of opportunity.
 
For those that find the previous question not too interesting, here's another, and then I'm off to get a little exercise...

In FMA, when I had first got to the point where I had 'the flow', it was great fun, and satisfying to start carrying a folder on my belt.

As with many on the forum, I fantasized about using the blade to defend myself, but in my case didn't think it through, in retrospect.

Many years have passed and I've had time to ask myself:

Do I really want to cut/stab another human? More importantly do I really want to get their blood all over me?

Considering the kinds of attacks one might experience in the USA, even if not satisfying in a macho way, what would be the optimal method, using minimal force and having maximal effect?

I decided that since I learned something about use of the rattan stick, that the best weapons to have around me would be:

Old style steel ruler (12 inch, 1/8 all steel), purpose drafting tool
Long handled flashlight, for working on car
Pen-laser, for giving lectures
1/2 inch by 24 inch long rattan stick, suitable for propping open my hatchback.

If my car was searched by LEO, I would hope they would not instantly keep me from continuing to live at home.

Does anyone here consider using a 'harmless' substitute for the knife to be a better alternative, and maybe more evolved way to use the training in the Art? Or is the careful use of the blade still a viable option in some circumstances, and if so, how?

Thanks for your thoughts.

-B


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Life is but a brief Window of opportunity.
 
Though I train with a stick a lot, it is illegal to carry one in California. Being a knife collector and general blade enthusiast, I always have a knife with me. I do not think of it as the ultimate weapon, but in the right situation, it could come in handy. I work mostly on empty-hand versus knife attacks.

A stick is not particularly better than a knife against a knife attack, they are too easy to smother at close range. The best thing to have is experience fighting against a knife.
 
Originally posted by Steve Harvey:
A stick is not particularly better than a knife against a knife attack, they are too easy to smother at close range. The best thing to have is experience fighting against a knife.
Click to expand...

Steve,

I agree, and disagree:

The presence of the single stick gives one an estimate of ranging that is absent when doing empty hands against the knife, while still allowing one to deal with it as 'total tools' challenge, i.e., not just focussing on the stick as your only tool, but still using the environment, body, footwork, and defusing concepts.

After all, is there really any defense against the knife in the hands of a determined and crazy opponent? The use of a 'spacer' and 'ranger' like a single stick gives me a beat and 1/2 of time and timing to my advantage, as well as being a speed multiplier.

Still, it is very easy to be smothered if you focus on the 'stick' response, and I, um sometimes have bad dreams about it.

Wanna hear something really funny and strange about dreams, now that I mention it?

Before studying the FMA, I often was unable to really do decent Martial self-defense in my dreams finding my arms and legs mired in molassas and other frustrations.

About 1 year after getting OK proficiency in FMA, I started winning all my dream battles, and winning them in great and interesting style. Neat!!

Thanks for the reply
-B


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Life is but a brief Window of opportunity.
 
Well, I just finished reading this entire thread. I'd avoided it previously because I was a little put off by the title of the thread (no offense to the original author). My mistake, as this is one of the most interesting threads I've read on any of the forums in quite some time.

I particularly appreaciate the comments of Animal, Richard Dobson, J Ringo, Don Rearic, et. al. regarding the the unreality of certain concepts in the FMA and the seeming overemphasis on these techniques by many FMA instructors (i.e., traps, disarms, and the whole "duelling" mentality). While some of these objections have been voiced previously I think putting them in the context of a duelling mentality sheds an entirely new light on the discussion particularly when the legal (not to mention moral) ramifications are considered.

I know that many have the attitude, "better judged by 12 than carried by 6." I've said it myself. But Animal's comments have made me realize that a part of me says, "better to be carried 6 than raped in prison by Bubba."

I was drawn to FMA because it was more realistic than the Kenpo I'd studied before. The more I studied FMA the more I realized that a lot of the stuff we spent the majority of our time practicing would get you killed in a street situation because they relied on precise timing and things to happen in a certain way. Now, I've never been in a fight outside of a dojo since high school but just from what I'd seen people do in free sparring I knew that things just didn't happen the way we're often told they will.

Unfortunately this has brought me to a new crossroads in my training where I'm again looking for someone who'll teach me self defense including what to do before, during and after a situation.

Until then I'll be spending a lot of time at the beach going bodysurfing. The pounding I get going over the falls on a 10 ft wave is great martial arts training.
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Megafolder Fans Unite!

Mike Melone

"Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle. " Psalm 144:1
"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them." Thomas Jefferson




[This message has been edited by MM (edited 08-31-2000).]
 
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