Is GEC the only game in town for you?

GET really has a perfect boutique niche right now, producing reminiscent patterns using traditional methods, in rather conservative quantities. And both the company and loyal customers seem to derive great satisfaction from their doing so. GEC would be crazy to change that formula.

But it definitely leaves the door open for somebody like Queen, to push the boundaries, and start producing high end traditional runs with more modern materials. They're close already. They just need a bit more imagination and variety in the process, and a closer eye on QC. With a bit of work, Queen could be a force to be reckoned with.
 
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I'm actually quite the opposite. I briefly tried custom knives, both modern and traditional. They didn't do it for me, the value wasn't there.

As for GEC, they seem to be doing just fine. The knives sell well, and people enjoy using them and collecting them. I personally don't really get the "they need to do this and that" kind of commentary. Clearly, they don't really need to do much apart from the gradual improvements they've been doing, as they're primary customer base is happy with 1095.

And quite frankly, the "all you fanboys!" type of sentiments don't win many points. At least not with me. It implies that the people who enjoy GEC knives are under some kind of illusion about a poor quality product, and that's not the case. You shouldn't go about conflating personal tastes for delusions. Seems unfair and disingenuous.
 
Well, I don't quite agree with the notion that the primary customer base is content with just 1095 and that gradual improvement is all GEC need to aspire to.

I'd suggest that it's maybe the current customer base that is content, due in part to some of the popular craze over rocketing prices for certain GEC 'must haves'. This can vanish as quickly as it began....

As I've stated before, I don't find GEC's attitude to no longer pining shields on stag knives to be a convincing improvement at all, frankly the opposite. But that's just my view, it has meant I'm no longer interested in their stag knives though. GEC's strength is its QC which is demonstrably better than the competition when one considers consistency overall. This is important to the customer, I simply don't approve of the argument that goes like "well traditionals are hand made so you HAVE to expect some kind of quirks and stop moaning because my grandfather liked this and it was no big deal then" etc etc This kind of complacency is what may have kept people away from Traditionals, fuelled the 'dinosaur' myth about non modern knives and their weird attitude to QC. So GEC's approach to QC is all important, but what I and others argue is that they should get away from their exclusive 1095 fetish and build upon their solid QC reputation by offering D2 or more contemporary stainless, using less brass and yet maintaining the look of the patterns. Looking over the pages it seems that many people would welcome a more open minded approach by GEC to having more contemporary steels. Lion Steel's Barlow has been cited and it's a good example of adventure using modern material and steel in a contemporary version of a Trad knife. Personally, I don't care for the knife itself but it's a good ilustration of potential.

SAK produce vast quantities of quite complex knives using very modern processes and their QC is ultra reliable, what many Traditional enthusiasts would like to see is a company like GEC or Queen having the money to invest in modern reliable precision tools to make Traditional knives that don't bother you with build faults, uneven finish and issues, using some contemorary materials. It's clearly not an either/or situation of all modern steel or just 1095, the two are not mutually exclusive or divisive. Obviously, investment is expensive but when used properly it is a guarantor of a long-term future for both the collector, user, enthusiast and company. When I think of what has been going on at Queen Cutlery the past few years, it seems to me that their core problem is wildly variable QC, some recent examples I've had have been shameful. I suspect that they are over dependent on worn machinery and equipment and that no amount of verbiage or mission statements with all the will in the world can overturn that central flaw which compromises consistency. Yet Queen shows an interest in modern steels, paradoxically GEC appears to shun that but certainly has the QC at an impressive level. What i would argue is a combination of the two as a real draw for knife enthusiasts.

By putting all its eggs in a carbon basket...GEC does run some risks..;)
 
By putting all its eggs in a carbon basket...GEC does run some risks..;)

But are they? It seems to be working for the moment with incredible sales. I suppose if that was to ever start to drop off they could then just pump more stainless into the market? It might be sensible milking the carbon cow till it's empty before bothering to change anything knowing that all it would take to change is to press the '440C' button on the steel online order form should a competitor start catching up?
 
I'm actually quite the opposite. I briefly tried custom knives, both modern and traditional. They didn't do it for me, the value wasn't there.

As for GEC, they seem to be doing just fine. The knives sell well, and people enjoy using them and collecting them. I personally don't really get the "they need to do this and that" kind of commentary. Clearly, they don't really need to do much apart from the gradual improvements they've been doing, as they're primary customer base is happy with 1095.

And quite frankly, the "all you fanboys!" type of sentiments don't win many points. At least not with me. It implies that the people who enjoy GEC knives are under some kind of illusion about a poor quality product, and that's not the case. You shouldn't go about conflating personal tastes for delusions. Seems unfair and disingenuous.

Frankly, I've been down the custom rabbit hole for quite a few years. I got to the point of cringing whenever I scratch one of my customs and that takes the enjoyment out of using knives. I've never been a collector and won't let a knife sit in a drawer unused, it's not me. Maybe it's time I was getting out of the rabbit hole...
 
I was going to say, no. However, I just looked at all of my knives and my buying habits say, yes GEC is the only game in town. The only non-GEC's I have bought in the past 2 years are all older knives (30+ years). The one Queen made knife is pretty good, but I probably wouldn't buy that knife again because it doesn't have the tightness of the GEC's.
 
I own more GEC made knives than any other. I'm at 20 at the moment.... I don't collect, so this buying has to slow down to a trickle. I don't need this many to use. I honestly am starting to consider more seriously handmade/custom traditionals now. I suspect it is just part of the evolution of the hobby.

GEC could definitely benefit from using other steels. But their production capacity does not exceed demand and if I were GEC, I wouldn't change the business model until market conditions begin to suggest changing would be a good business choice.

I am rooting for Queen to do some great things making traditionals. I just wish their QC was better or more consistent. Case has pretty much said.... if the knife as made is not dangerous (as in a liable sense), then it meets their QC expectations. That causes me to not even look at their knives.
 
GEC could "dip their toe in the water" by doing just one run per year in an upgraded steel at an upgraded price. People pay 3-400 bucks for the annual Bose Collabs from Case, so there is your price point. Put your two or three best cutlers on the project, use all stainless and nickel silver with something like Elmax or M390 and all the bells and whistles. I don't think there is any doubt they would sell.
 
I agree with the thought.... make a couple popular patterns a year using higher end steel or better yet, just add that as another choice on different production runs. But the Case Bose collaborations are too expensive from my point of view. When you get into that kind of price range, my eyes look to handmade slipjoints like TA Davison's for ""a few dollars more".
 
I own more GEC made knives than any other. I'm at 20 at the moment.... I don't collect, so this buying has to slow down to a trickle. I don't need this many to use. I honestly am starting to consider more seriously handmade/custom traditionals now. I suspect it is just part of the evolution of the hobby.

GEC could definitely benefit from using other steels. But their production capacity does not exceed demand and if I were GEC, I wouldn't change the business model until market conditions begin to suggest changing would be a good business choice.

I am rooting for Queen to do some great things making traditionals. I just wish their QC was better or more consistent. Case has pretty much said.... if the knife as made is not dangerous (as in a liable sense), then it meets their QC expectations. That causes me to not even look at their knives.

Once you go the custom route, I can assure you it won't be cheap. I've spent thousands of dollars. The rabbit hole ends with Tony Bose...might as well spend it now, it would have been far cheaper for me.
 
Once you go the custom route, I can assure you it won't be cheap. I've spent thousands of dollars. The rabbit hole ends with Tony Bose...might as well spend it now, it would have been far cheaper for me.
It is not only about money. If it were, I would only have Rough Rider slip joints, a few of the less expensive Spydies, or I might well be still using my pre-1980 Case jack knife that I used for years and is perfectly fine. I have already taken the plunge on a TA Davison slipjoint and am considering a second one now. So yeah... the rabbit hole.
 
I think GEC can make knives as they have been and just put better liners,pins and blade steels and have most knives at a $100 ish price point on patterns that aren't huge with a ton of blades. They could produce a single blade upgrade Barlow for $100. Other companies have and are doing it at around that price point. The market already exists and all it does is give consumers a better product and I believe people are willing to pay a little more. As for them making Case/Bose type stuff, I say stay away because that is too niche and the price points aren't friendly. As it's been said many times' at that price you may as well spend a little more and get a custom. I'm not saying they aren't nice but it's a price thing with those. A couple little tweaks of GEC material options and they would garner even more fans. I'm a fan but don't dig the liners and pins. I can live with 1095 but prefer an option of something like 154cm. I would love to see some Elmax. All I keep hearing is how it is like 440 in it's corrosion resistance and how tuff and makes a great edge. This steel from what I've heard is you get the best of both worlds. Somebody talk to Jr. Howard and get him to push Daddy into the present and future. Imagine how great it would be to have higher end options. They have been around long enough and should be stable where they are able to offer some things they haven't in the past.
 
I think GEC can make knives as they have been and just put better liners,pins and blade steels and have most knives at a $100 ish price point on patterns that aren't huge with a ton of blades.

I can live with 1095 but prefer an option of something like 154cm. I would love to see some Elmax. All I keep hearing is how it is like 440 in it's corrosion resistance and how tuff and makes a great edge. This steel from what I've heard is you get the best of both worlds. Somebody talk to Jr. Howard and get him to push Daddy into the present and future. Imagine how great it would be to have higher end options. They have been around long enough and should be stable where they are able to offer some things they haven't in the past.

It doesn't exactly work that way. Switching steels isn't just ordering the steel.

While GEC sends their blades out for heat treatment, they'd have to retool the factory for cutting the blades, grinding them, and finishing them. The increased wear resistance of modern powder steels makes many of them difficult to work with unless the factory is already set up for it.

I have a fairly close relationship with Kai USA, and have had several conversations over new steels, factory tooling, and the overhead of upgrading materials. It takes a lot, and isn't just about getting the materials.

If a factory is doing things as they had a century ago, their tooling is not going to be able to churn out a batch of properly heat treated Elmax blades without significantly wearing down their grinders and stamps/dies.
 
It doesn't exactly work that way. Switching steels isn't just ordering the steel.

While GEC sends their blades out for heat treatment, they'd have to retool the factory for cutting the blades, grinding them, and finishing them. The increased wear resistance of modern powder steels makes many of them difficult to work with unless the factory is already set up for it.

I have a fairly close relationship with Kai USA, and have had several conversations over new steels, factory tooling, and the overhead of upgrading materials. It takes a lot, and isn't just about getting the materials.

If a factory is doing things as they had a century ago, their tooling is not going to be able to churn out a batch of properly heat treated Elmax blades without significantly wearing down their grinders and stamps/dies.

I'm not sure how illustrative KAI's experience is when we're talking about GEC. They are really two totally different animals. KAI is producing orders of magnitude more knives than GEC and using entirely different processes.

It might be very difficult to "change gears" so to speak with KAI because they have a vast economy of scale and (I would imagine) near-total automation of the production process. GEC is much more of a traditional factory operation--virtually every step of the process is done by hand, albeit in an assembly-line fashion.

I don't think Elmax is the right steel to talk about here. It would be CPM-154. CPM-154 is only marginally more abrasive on belts than the 440C GEC is already using, takes a polish about as well, and offers a massive upgrade to the end user above 1095 or 440c. Of course there'd be a substantial up-front cost for GEC to produce even one run of a CPM-154 model. But I don't think it's too difficult to happen.

I've picked up a bunch of Canal Street knives in 14-4CrMo recently, and I don't carry my GECs anymore. My English Barlows are everything I need in a knife, and I don't have to worry about rust. It's been 90% humidity here in Maryland all summer long and I've had to scour surface rust off my GECs even while they sit uncarried with fresh oil in my drawer.
 
I'm not sure how illustrative KAI's experience is when we're talking about GEC. They are really two totally different animals. KAI is producing orders of magnitude more knives than GEC and using entirely different processes.

It might be very difficult to "change gears" so to speak with KAI because they have a vast economy of scale and (I would imagine) near-total automation of the production process. GEC is much more of a traditional factory operation--virtually every step of the process is done by hand, albeit in an assembly-line fashion.

I don't think Elmax is the right steel to talk about here. It would be CPM-154. CPM-154 is only marginally more abrasive on belts than the 440C GEC is already using, takes a polish about as well, and offers a massive upgrade to the end user above 1095 or 440c. Of course there'd be a substantial up-front cost for GEC to produce even one run of a CPM-154 model. But I don't think it's too difficult to happen.

I've picked up a bunch of Canal Street knives in 14-4CrMo recently, and I don't carry my GECs anymore. My English Barlows are everything I need in a knife, and I don't have to worry about rust. It's been 90% humidity here in Maryland all summer long and I've had to scour surface rust off my GECs even while they sit uncarried with fresh oil in my drawer.

I cited Kai because of the what I've been told about changing production to include other, "upgraded" materials. Taking into consideration how they act with the current tooling is part of the overhead of upgrading materials. And these are modern machines on a modern factory floor where mills and grinders are designed for higher wear materials. It stands to reason that Bill Howard's fleet of antique machinery would find CPM-154 problematic. Kai's shift for some models from Sandvik 14C28N to CPM-154 takes at least some discussion and consideration to make sure production is unaffected, so I'd imagine that going from 1095 to CPM-154 wouldn't be the easiest thing to do when maintaining production of several hundreds of knives per year.

Look, I think it'd be great. But I don't go to GEC for steel choices. I am happy to have my CTS-204P, S35Vn, and Vanax from other companies that do them perfectly.

The two Queen knives I have with D2 are nice, but it's clear where their manufacturing priorities are. I'd prefer a GEC with the tight manufacturing quality and the materials they use now.

As for the mention of Victorinox (SAK), they would really fall into a very similar camp as GEC. They've been using the exact same stainless steel for decades, and don't really change much of anything at all. Their patterns and configurations vary, of course, but they're all stamped from the exact same batch of dies, with the same relatively soft stainless. Does it matter? I don't think so, I love my Pioneers and Soldiers. However the company that tried to innovate the most was Wenger, not Victorinox, and Wenger went out of business. Ultimately their creativity got them gobbled up by Vic, and all that's left are a few Evo models and the remaining vestiges of (my opinion) the superior Soldier knife.

*shrug* I'm not trying advocate against experimentation or innovation. I'm just saying that the company's philosophy seems fair to me, and there are plenty of folks (myself included) that appreciate that.
 
I like what GEC is doing, and how they're doing it.

You have to remember, they make their own blades from soup to nuts, and heat treat them themselves, if I'm not mistaken. Putting an exotic steel into ancient machines and getting away from a steel they are very adept at working with and is suitable for the style knives they make is a little questionable. They'd probably have to make some tooling changes and do a lot of experimentation to use something like Elmax. That doesn't sound so bad, but GEC's profit margin isn't exactly huge, I hear.

I'm fine with GEC doing what GEC does. If I want something else, I'll buy something else... but that doesn't happen very much.
 
GET really has a perfect boutique niche right now, producing reminiscent patterns using traditional methods, in rather conservative quantities. And both the company and loyal customers seem to derive great satisfaction from their doing so. GEC would be crazy to change that formula.
Absolutely true sir! I have never seen or handled one personally, nor have I seen anyone carrying or using one in person in my area, but I am a bit of a bottom feeder. Those who like them really enjoy them, so they are doing the right thing. I do admire the fact that they have developed their intended market very well, and enjoy looking at their products on the forums.
 
Thing is that GEC does, and knows how to do 440C. That at least they could do. The return to almost only 1095 seems to be little more than a sop to the collectors market from my perspective.
 
Search on youtube for something like 'making victorinox knives'. They are the opposite of GEC in that it's nearly completely automated. Human hands touch the parts a few times but not in any particularly skilled manner.

The results are pretty nice though.
 
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