Is GEC the only game in town for you?

Yeah I'm interested in what machinery can't cope. You change the belts on the sanders. The customer would pay for them anyway. I saw the video's of the GEC shop and the only thing I assume they would need to change is the blade shape punch?
 
Pomsbz said:
Yeah I'm interested in what machinery can't cope. You change the belts on the sanders. The customer would pay for them anyway. I saw the video's of the GEC shop and the only thing I assume they would need to change is the blade shape punch?
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Punches, drill bits, little things. Processes like heat treating and possibly blade etch for have to be looked at.

Problem is, metals act so differently when you change types. What produces great results on 1095 might not be so hot on an exotic stainless.

And when you're dealing with slip joints, you have to take springs into consideration. An elmax back spring would probably not be a carbon copy of a 1095 spring.
 
Also, I personally don't have a problem with the brass liners or pins.

Is there really such a disdain for them? I haven't been a traditional knife person all that long, but they seem fine and look nice when they patina.
 
sticktodrum said:
Also, I personally don't have a problem with the brass liners or pins.

Is there really such a disdain for them? I haven't been a traditional knife person all that long, but they seem fine and look nice when they patina.
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I don't mind the brass either, having them all flush, now that might be a nice touch...
 
It seems to me that those who would like GEC to offer different options are saying they like the knives but wish they were a little different. Sort of like telling a specialty car manufacturer to add a/c and automatic transmission and seats for six. If you don't like it don't buy it.
 
Do I wish GEC would put out more 440C? Yes.

Would I be delighted if there was an offering in 154CM? Yes.

Do I think Bill Howard knows exactly what he's doing, and should continue to run his company as he sees fit regardless of some consumer demand (to include mine)? Yes.

Remember Coke 2?
 
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sticktodrum said:
Also, I personally don't have a problem with the brass liners or pins.

Is there really such a disdain for them? I haven't been a traditional knife person all that long, but they seem fine and look nice when they patina.
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Only by a very vocal few!:D
 
sticktodrum said:
It doesn't exactly work that way. Switching steels isn't just ordering the steel.
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Pomsbz said:
Yeah I'm interested in what machinery can't cope. You change the belts on the sanders. The customer would pay for them anyway. I saw the video's of the GEC shop and the only thing I assume they would need to change is the blade shape punch?
Click to expand...

Wilted Kilt said:
Punches, drill bits, little things. Processes like heat treating and possibly blade etch for have to be looked at.

Problem is, metals act so differently when you change types. What produces great results on 1095 might not be so hot on an exotic stainless.

And when you're dealing with slip joints, you have to take springs into consideration. An elmax back spring would probably not be a carbon copy of a 1095 spring.
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Totally correct. For a company set up to process carbon steel to swap back and forth from carbon to stainless is a pricey proposition. I don't have a relationship with a knife company, but I am an materials engineer and work for a manufacturing company which makes precision parts from aluminum, steel, stainless steel, nickel alloy, and titanium (not that we use much plain steel anymore, but we still know the protocols). I still spend time on the shop floor. I have performed time studies and priced out manufacturing changes.

ANY stainless containing carbides is significantly harder to form and process than carbon steel. Doesn't have to be fancy PM alloys. Even 440C has these requirements. It isn't just sanding belts. Machining takes longer and creates more wear on tools and even the jigs than carbon steel. That means tool life is shorter, so tooling cost is more expensive. The heat treat for stainless is also more expensive. The chemicals for electro-etching the blade are also different, but that's a relatively minor issue. Swap them out, cut a new stencil and off you go.

Housekeeping is another issue for a shop that processes both carbon steel and stainless. Stainless is stainless because of a thin oxide layer on the surface which acts as a barrier to water and oxygen. If that oxide layer gets contaminated with carbon steel, the barrier is breached and you get corrosion issues. We handle it at my company by dipping the parts in nitric acid after the manufacturing processes are complete. Not sure how knife companies handle it. But one thing for sure, you want to use a completely different set of belts for grinding stainless than you use for carbon steel, so that you don't contaminate the stainless. All of that costs money. A lot of money.

In manufacturing, there is something called, "fully burdened labor cost". That means that to the amount you pay the worker is added the overhead costs of machine maintenance, electricity, real estate taxes, the mortgage, the cost of a web site, the cost of a secretary, the cost of the phones, etc. Most outfits have a fully burdened labor rate of $120 - $150/ hour. Let's call it $120 for GEC. So all of these things which require more time in order to handle stainless greatly add to the cost of the knife. Change a sanding belt? 15 minutes + another 15 to change it back when you are done? That just cost $60. For a run of 50 knives, just that one small change added ~1.20$ to the manufacturing cost. Now add profit for GEC and add markup for dealers and all of a sudden it added $2.80 to final price paid by the end buyer, and that's just to modify one minor operation.

I said all that to say, "It takes more than just buying different alloy to change the alloy in a knife from carbon steel to stainless."
 
knarfeng said:
Totally correct. For a company set up to process carbon steel to swap back and forth from carbon to stainless is a pricey proposition. I don't have a relationship with a knife company, but I am an materials engineer and work for a manufacturing company which makes precision parts from aluminum, steel, stainless steel, nickel alloy, and titanium (not that we use much plain steel anymore, but we still know the protocols). I still spend time on the shop floor. I have performed time studies and priced out manufacturing changes.

ANY stainless containing carbides is significantly harder to form and process than carbon steel. Doesn't have to be fancy PM alloys. Even 440C has these requirements. It isn't just sanding belts. Machining takes longer and creates more wear on tools and even the jigs than carbon steel. That means tool life is shorter, so tooling cost is more expensive. The heat treat for stainless is also more expensive. The chemicals for electro-etching the blade are also different, but that's a relatively minor issue. Swap them out, cut a new stencil and off you go.

Housekeeping is another issue for a shop that processes both carbon steel and stainless. Stainless is stainless because of a thin oxide layer on the surface which acts as a barrier to water and oxygen. If that oxide layer gets contaminated with carbon steel, the barrier is breached and you get corrosion issues. We handle it at my company by dipping the parts in nitric acid after the manufacturing processes are complete. Not sure how knife companies handle it. But one thing for sure, you want to use a completely different set of belts for grinding stainless than you use for carbon steel, so that you don't contaminate the stainless. All of that costs money. A lot of money.

In manufacturing, there is something called, "fully burdened labor cost". That means that to the amount you pay the worker is added the overhead costs of machine maintenance, electricity, real estate taxes, the mortgage, the cost of a web site, the cost of a secretary, the cost of the phones, etc. Most outfits have a fully burdened labor rate of $120 - $150/ hour. Let's call it $120 for GEC. So all of these things which require more time in order to handle stainless greatly add to the cost of the knife. Change a sanding belt? 15 minutes + another 15 to change it back when you are done? That just cost $60. For a run of 50 knives, just that one small change added ~1.20$ to the manufacturing cost. Now add profit for GEC and add markup for dealers and all of a sudden it added $2.80 to final price paid by the end buyer, and that's just to modify one minor operation.

I said all that to say, "It takes more than just buying different alloy to change the alloy in a knife from carbon steel to stainless."
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You're totally right. Time is the big issue, especially for a company making relatively small runs on knives. All of that setup time to make a few hundred units is a significant investment.
 
Not the only fame in town but one of my favorites. I just wish they would make more of the styles I (and apparently many others) like. I see modles they produce that sit in the shelf for months that no one is buying. Why not take a hint from the marketplace to see what sells best? TC Barlows and Northfield Barlows are hot items...so make more of those and less of the Navy knives and other models that aren't being scooped up.

I find GEC to be leading the pack right now with regard to my taste in knives. I recently purchased a few Schatt's and I have to say fit and finish was very shabby. This was from their limited edition line, no excuse for that. I like Tuna Valley, good FF, but still some flaws here and there. I would like to see more stainless models of GEC as well.

Other brands I like are Bear and Sons, Case and vintage Camillus and Shrade.
 
Wilted Kilt said:
I like what GEC is doing, and how they're doing it.

You have to remember, they make their own blades from soup to nuts, and heat treat them themselves, if I'm not mistaken. Putting an exotic steel into ancient machines and getting away from a steel they are very adept at working with and is suitable for the style knives they make is a little questionable. They'd probably have to make some tooling changes and do a lot of experimentation to use something like Elmax. That doesn't sound so bad, but GEC's profit margin isn't exactly huge, I hear.

I'm fine with GEC doing what GEC does. If I want something else, I'll buy something else... but that doesn't happen very much.
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I'm pretty sure GEC uses Peter's Heat treating just like Queen.

Dave
 
Re: GEC; we can talk about the tangibles all we want, but what you can't get anywhere else is a certain sense of SOUL!!
There are wonderful knives from America, England, Italy, France, Canada, Switzerland - on and on.
But when you track the evolution of cutlery through the American industry, it peaks at GEC!!
It's taken generations to evolve to the feeling of owning many of GEC's knives!
Not perfect from a dispassionate/clinical view, but celestial from a human perspective!!
I like that GEC provides employment in a small town that needs the jobs. I like it that the guy in charge loves traditional knives like I do. I wouldn't change a thing!!
 
I want a Tony Bose LC in a variety of covers, in stock when I decide to buy and no more than $125. What do you say Mr. Howard? See how far out this can get?

I owned an antiques business for many years and I heard the same complaints day in and day out. We know you find the goods cheap so why the high markup.

The same answer I gave them applies here. If you think it's so easy, open your own business and make them however you want. Good luck!
 
waynorth said:
Re: GEC; we can talk about the tangibles all we want, but what you can't get anywhere else is a certain sense of SOUL!!
There are wonderful knives from America, England, Italy, France, Canada, Switzerland - on and on.
But when you track the evolution of cutlery through the American industry, it peaks at GEC!!
It's taken generations to evolve to the feeling of owning many of GEC's knives!
Not perfect from a dispassionate/clinical view, but celestial from a human perspective!!
I like that GEC provides employment in a small town that needs the jobs. I like it that the guy in charge loves traditional knives like I do. I wouldn't change a thing!!
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Very well said Charlie!!! :thumbsup: And we also get to have a Rendezvous every year! :D
 
black mamba said:
GEC could "dip their toe in the water" by doing just one run per year in an upgraded steel at an upgraded price. People pay 3-400 bucks for the annual Bose Collabs from Case, so there is your price point. Put your two or three best cutlers on the project, use all stainless and nickel silver with something like Elmax or M390 and all the bells and whistles. I don't think there is any doubt they would sell.
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That sums up my attitude to GEC's possible aspirations.

My observations are based on what I've seen other people ask after with regard to GEC, not just carbon and brass with a token nod to stainless. In the long term, it could make GEC all the more resilient and admirable. Gilles Steinberg really upped the quality and outlook at Fontanille-Pataud in France, making uncompromising quality Laguioles and other French patterns using Sandvik and other stainless, carbon and Rose Damascus. Using a wide range of scale materials and stringent QC. It works and it's authentic, soul if you like.
 
waynorth said:
Re: GEC; we can talk about the tangibles all we want, but what you can't get anywhere else is a certain sense of SOUL!!
There are wonderful knives from America, England, Italy, France, Canada, Switzerland - on and on.
But when you track the evolution of cutlery through the American industry, it peaks at GEC!!
It's taken generations to evolve to the feeling of owning many of GEC's knives!
Not perfect from a dispassionate/clinical view, but celestial from a human perspective!!
I like that GEC provides employment in a small town that needs the jobs. I like it that the guy in charge loves traditional knives like I do. I wouldn't change a thing!!
Click to expand...

QFT sir.
 
155440 said:
GEC is in a league of it's own here in the states. The only comparable stuff in terms of quality at the same price point can be found in Europe.

Renaud Aubry's stuff is better than gec imo but the patterns might not be to your taste. He also offers what are considered premium scale materials at a crazy low price. There are some close up photos of his work in this thread:
http://www.bladeforums.com/threads/dutch-forum-knife-2012.939283/

I agree re: Renaud Aubry's knives, I have a Navette slippy from him, and it's perfect in every way, and very affordable.
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Of course there is a certain love for what you grew up with.
I try not to think of knives from other countries, locales, cultures or societies as better or worse than the knives I love, but they are just different and in many ways admirable.
But when you appreciate that a knife can age just like your own self, showing scars and patina to remind you of history, you have got to love it!
I bought a knife with a ZDP-189 blade, and found it less than pleasing. It's way easier to sharpen 1095, and way quicker! And a well sharpened carbon steel blade cuts and whittles very well indeed.
 
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