Is GEC the only game in town for you?

I concur, simma down nah ! No ones dog has been run over here. My karma will run over your dogma though. all these GEC apologist are making Case apologist seem tame. Don't get me started on the junk they have produced since the 70's.
 
sticktodrum said:
Also, I personally don't have a problem with the brass liners or pins.

Is there really such a disdain for them? I haven't been a traditional knife person all that long, but they seem fine and look nice when they patina.
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I have nothing against brass Pins and Liners unless it has White Bone or Stag or Horn covers . The Green Verdigris coming through the covers is not very nice look. If the knife is going to be a Safe Queen , it does not matter . I personally like to carry a Stag handled knife every day .

Harry
 
Yea stag !!! that's my preference as well with nickel silver pins and liners. Is that really asking to much? A traditional in my book should have it and if it doesn't I'm not owning it. I may be a little snobby but I know what I like and the all white metals look better and don't turn crazy colors that bleed. yellow metals were usually reserved for more of the less spendy models. I wish Case made there schlock today with standard nickel silver liners and pins. That's what they call their Selects which are nothing more than regular production with silver nickel. That company shouldn't be allowed to use the Case name as well as Schrade and others using names that made great knives. Case should be Zippo knives and their lighters have become pure garbage as well. Even Dunhill has slipped in the lighter game because of selling out to companies that are a corporate mess. The S.T. Duponts have even cheaped out and the Maxijets aren't like they were over a decade ago. I'm glad I have an old one that works great.
 
Case C. said:
I concur, simma down nah ! No ones dog has been run over here. My karma will run over your dogma though. all these GEC apologist are making Case apologist seem tame. Don't get me started on the junk they have produced since the 70's.
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I'm sorry, but several posts were directly replying to things you brought up. It's not fair to make assumptions, and when they're corrected, call those providing information "apologists." Members were shining some light on areas of manufacturing, and then the thread reached a point of more positivity. Why then start with name calling?
 
Warning for insults
Sorry I didn't know apologist was name calling and I forgot how hyper sensitive people choose to be in this day an age. I believe people are looking for things to take offense to today and play on it to try and prove their case on anything. I say stop taking exception to anything and not pick and choose what to be sensitive towards. Hotwheels are better than Matchbox !!!! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa !!!! Get over yourselves. REALLY !!!!!!
 
There's an entire sticky devoted to proper posting in Traditional, but it really boils down to three points.
♦ Post about traditional knives.
♦ Use family friendly language.
♦ Post friendly.

This forum is designed to provide a place for people to talk about their love of traditional knives in a friendly atmosphere. Neither insults nor trolling are tolerated. Address the question in the thread instead of attacking other posters.
 
knarfeng said:
Totally correct. For a company set up to process carbon steel to swap back and forth from carbon to stainless is a pricey proposition. I don't have a relationship with a knife company, but I am an materials engineer and work for a manufacturing company which makes precision parts from aluminum, steel, stainless steel, nickel alloy, and titanium (not that we use much plain steel anymore, but we still know the protocols). I still spend time on the shop floor. I have performed time studies and priced out manufacturing changes.

ANY stainless containing carbides is significantly harder to form and process than carbon steel. Doesn't have to be fancy PM alloys. Even 440C has these requirements. It isn't just sanding belts. Machining takes longer and creates more wear on tools and even the jigs than carbon steel. That means tool life is shorter, so tooling cost is more expensive. The heat treat for stainless is also more expensive. The chemicals for electro-etching the blade are also different, but that's a relatively minor issue. Swap them out, cut a new stencil and off you go.

Housekeeping is another issue for a shop that processes both carbon steel and stainless. Stainless is stainless because of a thin oxide layer on the surface which acts as a barrier to water and oxygen. If that oxide layer gets contaminated with carbon steel, the barrier is breached and you get corrosion issues. We handle it at my company by dipping the parts in nitric acid after the manufacturing processes are complete. Not sure how knife companies handle it. But one thing for sure, you want to use a completely different set of belts for grinding stainless than you use for carbon steel, so that you don't contaminate the stainless. All of that costs money. A lot of money.

In manufacturing, there is something called, "fully burdened labor cost". That means that to the amount you pay the worker is added the overhead costs of machine maintenance, electricity, real estate taxes, the mortgage, the cost of a web site, the cost of a secretary, the cost of the phones, etc. Most outfits have a fully burdened labor rate of $120 - $150/ hour. Let's call it $120 for GEC. So all of these things which require more time in order to handle stainless greatly add to the cost of the knife. Change a sanding belt? 15 minutes + another 15 to change it back when you are done? That just cost $60. For a run of 50 knives, just that one small change added ~1.20$ to the manufacturing cost. Now add profit for GEC and add markup for dealers and all of a sudden it added $2.80 to final price paid by the end buyer, and that's just to modify one minor operation.

I said all that to say, "It takes more than just buying different alloy to change the alloy in a knife from carbon steel to stainless."
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One thing doesn't compute with all this. The tiny runs of stainless they do. It would not make sense for them, given all you've written, to do anything but large runs. Which is of course what we are requesting.
 
Not my company, so I can't answer. But larger runs means more wear on the tooling. Maybe they may figure that they can make a few stainless here and there and not have significant wear on the tooling.

440C is not as harsh on tooling as the PM steels I've seen discussed in the thread. 440C only has chromium carbides. Those are not as hard as Vanadium Carbide or Niobium Carbide.

I dunno. If it were my company, and I were selling everything I could make, I'd probably not worry too much about folks wanting something other than what I was already making. Doesn't stop us from dreaming though, does it.
 
I won't say this with much certainty, and apparently I'm up for my yearly refresher already, but I think during the tours I've been on, it's been said that they don't do a ton of SS due to wear on tools and machinery.

Someone who's been more attentive perhaps can confirm or deny this - but I believe your last post is spot on Frank.
 
knarfeng said:
Not my company, so I can't answer. But larger runs means more wear on the tooling. Maybe they may figure that they can make a few stainless here and there and not have significant wear on the tooling.

440C is not as harsh on tooling as the PM steels I've seen discussed in the thread. 440C only has chromium carbides. Those are not as hard as Vanadium Carbide or Niobium Carbide.

I dunno. If it were my company, and I were selling everything I could make, I'd probably not worry too much about folks wanting something other than what I was already making. Doesn't stop us from dreaming though, does it.
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Wouldn't it be nice if the market for modern material traditionals would be such that it could eat into the 'OHO' market sufficiently to allow the kind of manufacturing structure for your/our dream to come true? With sufficient marketing education it could happen. They brainwashed the world into believing diamonds were worth those prices just because they wanted to sell the things to an uninterested market. In comparison a traditional style knife is truly valuable, useful and relevant in today's world and I'm sure the market for them would be far wider if they were being marketed as a modern commodity for the masses (like Victorinox does) rather than a sop to tradition, the past, nostalgia or to the collectors market.

Imagine Spyderco making multiple lines of modern material traditionals (barlows, jacks, trappers, etc) on their impressive factory lines and sold in their standard catalogue. Not just a SFO from Lionsteel, a couple of knives from Cold Steel (which are apparently really nice) or the new Benchmade thingy. I believe all the aforementioned are the big companies dipping their toes into the market. If it goes well, perhaps the dream can indeed become true. All the advantages of a traditional with all the advantages of modern production lines, methods, materials and pricing. Swoon. :D
 
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waynorth said:
...But when you appreciate that a knife can age just like your own self, showing scars and patina to remind you of history, you have got to love it! I bought a knife with a ZDP-189 blade, and found it less than pleasing. It's way easier to sharpen 1095, and way quicker! And a well sharpened carbon steel blade cuts and whittles very well indeed.
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I think it's good to try new things regardless of what you grew up with. For some of us, the growing up with was a ways back. I don't own a knife in ZDP-189, but my understanding with the super steels is simply that they "whittle longer" before needing to re-sharpen. If that is important, I think one needs to seek out knives made with those steels. As far as patina goes, I would rather a blade look brand new. The patina, scars, or aging is not something that I seek, but really don't mind.

The biggest thing that can be said for 1095 and traditional knives is "they're traditional". GEC does a good job making traditional knives.
 
They are pretty much the only game in town for me. I like that they stay true to tradition. That's why they appeal to me . I feel very fortunate.
 
I have been following this thread every time it pops up to the top and every time I see it, I think I have something to say about it but never felt I could fully articulate what I wanted to convey. Truth is, with my relatively newfound interest in traditional knives, my experience with the various cutlery firms that dabble in traditional patterns is very limited as of yet. I almost feel like I came to my senses a little too late and I have missed out on a lot of great knives made or designed by some great companies.

Granted, I am still learning the complicated intricacies involved in knowing what firm is owned by who and what cutlery brand is manufactured by said firm and what decade all of this occurred in. Likely, I will never know it all but it is a fun journey all the same.

Back to the question at hand though. Is GEC the only game in town? Well, it all comes down to the eye of the beholder. Perusing the Tuna Valley Photography thread made me realize something, or rather just affirmed what I already knew about myself when it comes to knives. I usually keep myself to a $100 a knife maximum, give or take just a few, but that is generally the benchmark by which I view my knives. Can I get a great quality, functional cutting tool for my stated budget and have it last me a lifetime with responsible use and care? The answer is yes, yes I can. As beautiful as the Tuna Valley knives are, as stunning as many of the customs works of art I see demonstrated here on a daily basis are, I could never justify using such a costly knife for what it was intended. Now that is mostly the mentality that separates a user from a collector, that much I understand. Personally though, I collect knives to use them because I simply enjoy working with knives and if they look real pretty while doing it, well that is an added bonus. ;)

Case has not managed to grab me yet. My biological father is a very avid Case collector and I had the opportunity to examine some of his knives not too long ago. I was a bit underwhelmed, some of the pulls were very soft, the handle materials were not terribly exciting, and though they were perfectly functional and even had great F&F (this coming from a guy who isn't overly picky), I just wasn't sold. I liken the experience to when you order bacon at a restaurant and when it is served, it is soggy and limp. You know it will still taste like bacon and be delicious, but the experience has become rather lackluster...

Now GEC offers me a knife I can get excited about. I can get a knife that is at or under my per knife budget and I can be reasonably assured that I am getting a knife that is more than acceptable in terms of F&F, walk-n-talk, and functionality. I am already an advocate of 1095 so I will not bore others with an appeal that will be contrary to their own desires and I certainly have no problems with brass liners and pins, in fact I am rather partial to brass.... I already own a number of GEC knives and have been very pleased with what they offer thus far. I am figuring out what I like, dislike, or am ambivalent about when it comes to my knife preferences and GEC is providing me with an excellent platform to do so.

I hope that with more exposure to other cutlery firms and their offerings that my horizons can become broadened a bit but in the meantime GEC offers me quite a bit for my dollar and for that I am rather grateful.
 
Pàdruig said:
...I liken the experience to when you order bacon at a restaurant and when it is served, it is soggy and limp. You know it will still taste like bacon and be delicious, but the experience has become rather lackluster...
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Exactly my feeling about GEC. The design elements, materials and construction all combined do not say "Buy me...NOW." Not so with Case or Queen.

Plus, since I use my knives, spending >$100 for rusting, soft, good ole 095 steel makes me feel ripped off. Don't buy no ugly knife :)

Thank goodness, GEC is NOT the only game in town.
 
brownshoe said:
Exactly my feeling about GEC. The design elements, materials and construction all combined do not say "Buy me...NOW." Not so with Case or Queen.

Plus, since I use my knives, spending >$100 for rusting, soft, good ole 095 steel makes me feel ripped off. Don't buy no ugly knife :)

Thank goodness, GEC is NOT the only game in town.
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I think this is one of the most fascinating things about the varying interests in purveyors of traditional patterned knives. I think it brings new meaning to the old adage, "One man's junk is another man's treasure". There will always be the "One Brand" folks who swear by their chosen fancy and do not venture outside of their comfort zone and there certainly isn't anything wrong with that. In fact, it is that rather simplistic preference that I find quite enviable. However, I am a man of many interests and tastes and ultimately I would be limiting myself if I were a one stop shop or a one brand kind of guy. Variety is the spice of life from what I have heard...

If what I have been reading about Queen is true, I think there will be a lot to look forward to from this firm and I am excited to see what they produce. I quite honestly do not have a lot of experience with Case knives other than I find some of their older knives and previously produced patterns to be attractive but haven't handled them to determine if they have merits beyond their aesthetics. But there isn't anything they are currently producing that excites me much where GEC has plenty to offer currently.

But again, it is all in the eye of the beholder. Like what Kris said here..
MT Damascus said:
buy what you like and like what you buy.
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Nicely written, Dylan. The main things I consider in appreciating pocket cutlery make up an incompletely describable list of aesthetic and functional items.
Many have tried to copy the aesthetics of traditional knives, but few have gotten them right.
(this is a traditional forum is it not??).
From gluing on the handles and shields, to "missing" the curve that makes a blade beautiful the list is endless.
When all the details are correct, you get a work of art. When you don't get them right, the knife will be so so.
Someone suggested above that a modern factory could make great traditional knives, with modern materials. It can't happen, in my opinion. They might make a highly functional knife, but they will miss the aesthetic that is created by human hands, as well as compromising to suit the machines.
 
GEC is simply out of my Price range, I like to stay under 75 bucks. I been a Old Timer man along with Case and Buck for years .
 
There are quite a few GECs that can be had, brand new, for less than $75.
I like my Case, Buck and Old Timers (US) too!:thumbsup:
 
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