Is it just me, or is Kershaw handling the Natrix line all wrong?

[tony281sc2]

Doesn't the Bareknuckle pretty much fill that gap? That to me seems like the American made basic natrix.

^ this... I had a regular natrix....imo it feels too light and cheap, because it is. However I’m looking forward to the release of the bareknuckle and hopefully they will do more with that knife (dlc, BW, S35VN steel?....etc)

 

[Lapedog]

I was going to say something about how heavy that would be, but then I did some math:
Copper Natrix is 6.4" overall, weighs 3.2oz
Natrix XL is 8.75" overall, weighs 4.1oz

Both have roughly the same blade/handle ratio (0.75:1 vs 0.748:1)
The Natrix XL is 136.72% the size of the Cu Natrix. So, if you made the Cu Natrix 36.72% larger, it would weigh...

4.37oz. Not exactly a chunker for the size. I dig it.

That is what I always assumed was keeping them from making the Copper Natrix, that the weight would be outrageous. Copper is a fairly weighty metal.

4.37oz seems pretty light for a full sized copper handled knife. Granted the Natrix wouldn’t have steel liners.

I think your math might be a little off because it only took into account the length of the Copper Natrix vs the Natrix Xl. Is the xl natrix only bigger in the butt to tip length dimension? It might be bigger in the height of the knife too. (Height as in if the open knife was sitting on the table with its edge facing down and the spine pointing up to the sky)

Either way even if it was a 5 ounce copper knife I could live with it. The copper Natrix is one of the most anticipated Kershaws I have seen in a long time and I would love to see atleast a full sized copper natrix even if they never do the xl.

 

[yamsi12]

I’d be all over the copper natrix and the natrix black if they were made in USA. I have quite a few Chinese made Kershaws and while they are ok, prefer USA made kershaws with better steel.

 

[Comeuppance]

Okay, the way you're doing the math you should always get 2 12-inch pizzas instead of an 18-inch, right? That's like getting a 24-inch pizza by the way you're doing the math. Except you're calculating area, not a single dimension, like OAL, so the 18-inch pizza actually is bigger than the two 12-inch pizzas.

In your example it's even worse, because the scales likely won't just be longer AND taller, they'll also probably be thicker. That means the weight is going to be almost certainly more than double what the copper Natrix is. You're thinking in a single dimension about a 3D object.

Honestly sorry if you were offended by the earlier reply, just had to finish a thing real quick and figured I would have time to edit in an explanation before you saw/replied.

I wasn’t offended as much as I was amused by the seemingly aimless dismissal, and the tone was that of “you don’t understand” instead of “you didn’t account for (x)”. Given the tone of your prior posts in the thread, I almost added “was there any other post you’d like to indirectly insult or have you finished working through whatever is bothering you?”

I didn’t assume my math was 100% spot-on. It assumes that, since the relative proportions of both knives are nearly identical, that the 2-dimensional size difference would serve as a rough metric. As in, if you made the knife 37% longer, it would weigh 37% more if you assume everything else increased in direct proportion.

The resulting number did seem low, but, it does make one wonder how close it would be. With no steel liners or G10, and with effective skeletonization, I don’t know if the number I came to would be so drastically different than the resultant product.

The pure math wasn’t really the crux of the post; it was more like a rough approximation that supported the notion that the XL Cu Natrix would not be prohibitively hefty. Even with a somewhat generous 1oz margin of error, it’s still nothing close to the chonk that the 0550 was.

 

[Night Rider]

I too would like to see a full size Copper Natrix, weight be damned.

I am still disappointed in my KVT blue/grey natrix. The darn detent made it painful to flip, and I got a callus on my finger trying to break it in. Still no dice. Terrible for a great design. I will try the bareknuckle when released, and if they don't do it right, I am washing my hands of anything natrix-related in the future.

Not to insult you but are you pinching the frame lock too tight. I was when I first got mine but I adjusted my grip. The detent takes a little bit more pressure to overcome than some of my other knives but that's what gives it that nice snap. to be honest I was surprised to see that it was not assisted when I took it apart for cleaning. Just a thought

 

[b00n]

I carry a copper PM2 and a Reate Jack, so I wouldn't mind a copper Natrix XL which would probably be around 7 - 8 oz as well.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

I wasn’t offended as much as I was amused by the seemingly aimless dismissal, and the tone was that of “you don’t understand” instead of “you didn’t account for (x)”. Given the tone of your prior posts in the thread, I almost added “was there any other post you’d like to indirectly insult or have you finished working through whatever is bothering you?”

I didn’t assume my math was 100% spot-on. It assumes that, since the relative proportions of both knives are nearly identical, that the 2-dimensional size difference would serve as a rough metric. As in, if you made the knife 37% longer, it would weigh 37% more if you assume everything else increased in direct proportion.

The resulting number did seem low, but, it does make one wonder how close it would be. With no steel liners or G10, and with effective skeletonization, I don’t know if the number I came to would be so drastically different than the resultant product.

The pure math wasn’t really the crux of the post; it was more like a rough approximation that supported the notion that the XL Cu Natrix would not be prohibitively hefty. Even with a somewhat generous 1oz margin of error, it’s still nothing close to the chonk that the 0550 was.

Apologies, but again, your estimate wasn't 2 dimensional, it was 1 dimensional. And, as I said, we're discussing what would almost certainly be a 3 dimensional change. A 1oz margin of error is very, very unlikely to cover it because there are two entire dimensions you haven't accounted for. Just as an example, let's do this in two dimensions and make it as easy as possible. Say the Cu Natrix has perfectly rectangular scales that are 4" long and 1.5" tall. Area of 6 square inches. So now let's increase those number by the 36% difference you calculated. Now we have 5.4" by 2.04" aaaaand suddenly the area is more than 11 square inches, or almost a 100% increase rather than the 36% you calculated. That's leaving out an entire dimension. Given that do you really think a 1oz margin of error is going to cover your earlier estimate? We're now using almost double the copper with only two dimensions weighing in.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

I carry a copper PM2 and a Reate Jack, so I wouldn't mind a copper Natrix XL which would probably be around 7 - 8 oz as well.

I'm pretty sure it would actually weight a bit more. The PM2 has steel liners and (relatively) thin scales over. The Reate is, I'm pretty sure, half bronze or brass (both a bit lighter than copper) and titanium. The Natrix would be about the same size, but almost certainly have substantially thicker scales than the PM2 due to linerless construction and have quite a lot more copper than the Reate has bronze/brass since there's quite a lot of TI in it. Some still wouldn't mind the weight, but the more I think, the more I'd bet we'd be looking at 10+oz.

 

[jeffsenpai]

Not to insult you but are you pinching the frame lock too tight. I was when I first got mine but I adjusted my grip. The detent takes a little bit more pressure to overcome than some of my other knives but that's what gives it that nice snap. to be honest I was surprised to see that it was not assisted when I took it apart for cleaning. Just a thought

I tried so much to make it work, but you are right, if any part of the grip was on the lockbar cutout, it got even harder.

 

[Goose 7279]

I'm pretty sure it would actually weight a bit more. The PM2 has steel liners and (relatively) thin scales over. The Reate is, I'm pretty sure, half bronze or brass (both a bit lighter than copper) and titanium. The Natrix would be about the same size, but almost certainly have substantially thicker scales than the PM2 due to linerless construction and have quite a lot more copper than the Reate has bronze/brass since there's quite a lot of TI in it. Some still wouldn't mind the weight, but the more I think, the more I'd bet we'd be looking at 10+oz.

I disagree i think with effective milling techniques they could keep the weight down but we are both only speculating.

I would say they would not have to be thicker because alot of knives that use metal handles thickness doesnt change when going up in size like for instance sebenza or paramilitary. But i have been wrong before. Taking into account that the paramilitarys brass handles that i have seen too are not milled doesnt help weight for them.
Edited to add 2nd paragraph

 

[jbmonkey]

I disagree i think with effective milling techniques they could keep the weight down but we are both only speculating.

copper is very soft so it would likely have to be a bit thicker. i say this as I have a buck 110 in copper. it is a tad thicker than the brass or nickel silver version. so it isnt a tolerance deal why the copper 110 is thicker I believe it's for needed strength.

 

[Goose 7279]

copper is very soft so it would likely have to be a bit thicker. i say this as I have a buck 110 in copper. it is a tad thicker than the brass or nickel silver version. so it isnt a tolerance deal why the copper 110 is thicker I believe it's for needed strength.

Dont know if you knew this but nickel silver and brass are both copper alloys and the strength for nickel silver and copper are almost the same

 

[Fixall]

I tried so much to make it work, but you are right, if any part of the grip was on the lockbar cutout, it got even harder.

Yep. I had this issue at first too. I still think the detent is a tiny bit too stiff, but since I changed my grip it feels a lot better.

I hold the knife with my middle finger on the pocket clip and use the side of my index finger instead of the tip. With that modified grip the Natrix FLIES open for me.

 

[Comeuppance]

copper is very soft so it would likely have to be a bit thicker. i say this as I have a buck 110 in copper. it is a tad thicker than the brass or nickel silver version. so it isnt a tolerance deal why the copper 110 is thicker I believe it's for needed strength.

TBH, I think the Buck 110 is a poor metric by which to measure by. It is abnormally heavy regardless of the materials involved; it just is not well-designed in regards for weight mitigation. Negligible efforts have been made for weight reduction across the board. I don't think it's necessarily the materials involved as much as their incorporation.

I could easily be wrong, but I think a wisely-designed full-brass handle on a natrix would weigh in under 6oz. Hyperbolic comparisons like the almost legendarily-weighty 110 are useless for multiple reasons:
- The 110 has no internal milling
- Backlocks necessitate an entire solid back portion and spring that is not necessary in a liner/framelock
- Design has large unnecessary thick portions just to match scales

The Buck 110 is a solid chunk of metal with milled portions to accommodate covers. It's an incredibly dense knife that makes zero attempts to be lighter. I would argue that, were it solid brass, milled economically, and made a frame/linerlock, it would be 25-30% lighter. Heck, you could even throw in a thin steel liner for the sake of sturdiness and still probably come in under 5oz.

 

[jbmonkey]

Dont know if you knew this but nickel silver and brass are both copper alloys and the strength for nickel silver and copper are almost the same

yes I did on them being copper alloys. brass and bronze are much stronger than copper. I thought nickel silver was stronger and more durable than copper. you sure about that?

 

[jbmonkey]

TBH, I think the Buck 110 is a poor metric by which to measure by. It is abnormally heavy regardless of the materials involved; it just is not well-designed in regards for weight mitigation. Negligible efforts have been made for weight reduction across the board. I don't think it's necessarily the materials involved as much as their incorporation.

I could easily be wrong, but I think a wisely-designed full-brass handle on a natrix would weigh in under 6oz. Hyperbolic comparisons like the almost legendarily-weighty 110 are useless for multiple reasons:
- The 110 has no internal milling
- Backlocks necessitate an entire solid back portion and spring that is not necessary in a liner/framelock
- Design has large unnecessary thick portions just to match scales

The Buck 110 is a solid chunk of metal with milled portions to accommodate covers. It's an incredibly dense knife that makes zero attempts to be lighter. I would argue that, were it solid brass, milled economically, and made a frame/linerlock, it would be 25-30% lighter. Heck, you could even throw in a thin steel liner for the sake of sturdiness and still probably come in under 5oz.

your making arguments I didnt make with my buck 110 in copper. the buck 110s in copper are thicker than the brass ones. due to I believe being softer than brass and nickel silver. point being copper is soft so might have to be thicker. btw I dont care about the weight in a knife. never have. I carry bigger and heavier folders. I am no ounce counter.

 

[Comeuppance]

I'm pretty sure it would actually weight a bit more. The PM2 has steel liners and (relatively) thin scales over. The Reate is, I'm pretty sure, half bronze or brass (both a bit lighter than copper) and titanium. The Natrix would be about the same size, but almost certainly have substantially thicker scales than the PM2 due to linerless construction and have quite a lot more copper than the Reate has bronze/brass since there's quite a lot of TI in it. Some still wouldn't mind the weight, but the more I think, the more I'd bet we'd be looking at 10+oz.

Realistically, the parts of the knife that don't experience much force (everything below the pivot and everything not attached to the sub-framelock) could likely be almost a hollow shell of ~1/8" copper with a handful of reinforcing lines that are slightly thicker. The handle of the knife, with just a few minor reinforcements, would be entirely as sturdy as necessary with a very small relative density.

I think 10oz is a gross overestimation; 4.5-5.5oz seems like a realistic goal as long as it is designed wisely. Put a standoff at the butt, one around where the base of the thumb would land, use the pivot and stop pin to support the rest, and a relatively hollow ~1/8" handle seems feasible.

 

[Comeuppance]

your making arguments I didnt make with my buck 110 in copper. the buck 110s in copper are thicker than the brass ones. due to I believe being softer than brass and nickel silver. point being copper is soft so might have to be thicker. btw I dont care about the weight in a knife. never have. I carry bigger and heavier folders. I am no ounce counter.

My apologies - I quoted the wrong post. I was still a little salty about the 110 comparison Insipid Moniker made earlier. Drinkposting FTL.

 

[jbmonkey]

My apologies - I quoted the wrong post. I was still a little salty about the 110 comparison Insipid Moniker made earlier. Drinkposting FTL.

no bother, no apology needed. dont be salty. its just a discussion on a topic. nothing more.

 

[sgt1372]

I've been carrying the "original" and standard 3 1/4" SW/G10 Natrix (7007) for the past week. It's super light and sharp. Think it only cost me $25. Works great as an EDC.

I'm not interested in any of the newer variations but I like bigger/longer blades (up to 4") and am interested in the XL but I don't like the looks of the black/green 7008OLBLK. However I'd buy one if they'd make an XL that looks like the 7007, just larger. Hope they do