Is it traditional or something else?

[KnifeHead]

I appreciate GECs ability to make a very nice knife, but, if they're calling that knife(in my post up yonder) a muskrat, they are wrong. Clearly they are clever enough there to come up with a different name or number or hand sign....something. (just sayin)

 

[VCM3]

I appreciate GECs ability to make a very nice knife, but, if they're calling that knife(in my post up yonder) a muskrat, they are wrong. Clearly they are clever enough there to come up with a different name or number or hand sign....something. (just sayin)

How 'bout a "Fat Rat" & call it a day,whatta U say ?
-Vince

 

[neeman]

Not my definition. It is an excerpt and can be found on p. 190 of Levine's Guide (IV) with appropriate (and instructive) illustrations. If one reads the book (in one of its many incarnations) all becomes clear in time.

However, that said, it is no longer my personal mission to carry on the quest for clarity. Those who wish to learn the nuances will do so of their own volition. In my opinion it is worth the effort.

Elliott,

Is Levine's Guide the definative source for the historical naming and definitions?
Or are there other sources?

Thanks

 

[Blues]

Elliott,

Is Levine's Guide the definative source for the historical naming and definitions?
Or are there other sources?

Thanks

I don't know if you ask the question seriously or facetiously, Neeman, but certainly there are a multitude of other sources.

That said, I believe that by and large Levine's Guide is the most respected and referred to in this particular arena (here in the U.S.). I have other books that I refer to often but Levine's gives the best overall descriptions, examples and illustrations imho.

 

[waynorth]

At one point I started a thread about getting all these pattern names straightened out. However I got lost in the confusion, and I am too much of a lateral thinker (if I may use the word "think") to tough it out, and accomplish a definitive Dictionary of Knife Patterns.
It needs a single-minded linear thinker to accomplish the task, and I throw out the challenge for someone to do it!!
Bernie Levine has come the closest. A little polishing of his system should produce an unassailable directory.
Anyone??
That's not to say the Cutleries i.e: GEC, nor the marketers, i.e: A.G.Russell, will adhere to it!

 

[KnifeHead]

If feel the same way about Taco Bell and their "beef". :barf:

Yeah, some definite mystery meat action going on there, and what's up with those dang flat-bottom hard taco shells you can buy now! Clearly this flys in the face of nature.

 

[KnifeHead]

At one point I started a thread about getting all these pattern names straightened out. However I got lost in the confusion, and I am too much of a lateral thinker (if I may use the word "think") to tough it out, and accomplish a definitive Dictionary of Knife Patterns.
It needs a single-minded linear thinker to accomplish the task, and I throw out the challenge for someone to do it!!
Bernie Levine has come the closest. A little polishing of his system should produce an unassailable directory.
Anyone??
That's not to say the Cutleries i.e: GEC, nor the marketers, i.e: A.G.Russell, will adhere to it!

I would take up the challenge but I enjoy griping about the non-adherents and pseudo-experts

 

[tomcrx]

That's not to say the Cutleries i.e: GEC, nor the marketers, i.e: A.G.Russell, will adhere to it!

But would the industry be as fun if they did

Seriously though a wiki that users could add and edit content to would be great. People on the board here, such as yourself Charlie, have incredible knowledge and collections. They would be a great addition to knife knowledge and lore in general if it was available online.

 

[hlee]

I have some questions but, bear with me while I give you a backdrop for them.

When I started learning about traditional folding knives, one of the hurdles I had to clear was the fact that there are names for everything. I know that sounds stupid but geesh, we have stockmans, jacks, trappers, whittlers, clips, pens, half-stop, sheep foot, lamb foot, nail nick, nail pull, French pull, matchstick pull, long pull etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum. You can get lost in the names!

Yes, but remember that "back in the day" there wasn't the internet, and unless you were standing in a store holding onto a knife the best you were going to do was an engraving and a small description. Catalogs like the Sears Roebuck Catalog (and those that came before) didn't have full page glossy photos of merchandise. For the most part there were small line drawings (wood cuts, engravings, etc) and short descriptions. "Large premium stockman, stag scales, threaded bolsters" gives you a pretty good idea of what you are buying, given that common conventions are held. A premium stockman IS a premium stockman- that alone tells you what blade shapes you are getting, how many blades, and the overall shape of the knife. The same thing applies to blade shapes. I could take 50 words to accurately describe what a sheep's foot blade looks like, or I could say "sheep's foot blade." Printing is nearly free on the internet, but it was/is expensive when making and mailing a catalog...

As far as misuse of common naming conventions, you don't have to look farther than collectors to find the major culprits in the mis/renaming of patterns. Ask three collectors what a "hobo" knife is and you will get three different answers. Ask them what a slot knife is and you will get a blank stare, "Oh, it's a hobo knife," and possibly the correct answer.

What is the common definition of a muskrat knife? I thought "a double end jack knife with two long clip blades" pretty much encompassed the defining characteristics of the pattern. Now I have to go find my copy of LG IV to see what I am missing...

 

[Paul 883215]

What is the common definition of a muskrat knife? I thought "a double end jack knife with two long clip blades" pretty much encompassed the defining characteristics of the pattern. Now I have to go find my copy of LG IV to see what I am missing...

Companies such as Buck and Mooremaker have a clip and a spey blade on the knives they call muskrats.They should be called a moose, right??? It really is kinda confusing for a new guy.


Paul

 

[KnifeHead]

Companies such as Buck and Mooremaker have a clip and a spey blade on the knives they call muskrats.They should be called a moose, right??? It really is kinda confusing for a new guy.


Paul

Show some images if you can. You have to look at the frame first to determine what the pattern is. There are double-end jacks and double-end trappers...I know, I know....very confusing.

 

[Paul 883215]

I'm sorry I can't post a pic right now. I am on my mobile. I will post something tonight when I get home.


Paul

 

[Morrow]

Without knowing the materials......traditional?

 

[rprocter]

Quote hlee: "A premium stockman IS a premium stockman- that alone tells you what blade shapes you are getting, how many blades, and the overall shape of the knife. "
Not quite according to Levine. He describes a Premium Stock knife as: serpentine, double ended, 3 blades, 2 springs, over 3 1/2" closed, Master always some type of Clip-point, 2nd usually a Spey and 3rd can be a Pen, Sheepsfoot or Harness Punch.
So add to hlee's description that there is variation of the 3rd blade.
This is very minor but it shows that having authoratative definitions would give more clarity.
roland

 

[Paul 883215]

vendor links removed. you may copy and paste the images here, not the vendor website.

While I can't post a pic right now here are the links to the respective online catalogs.


Paul

 

[KnifeHead]

vendor links removed per guidelines.

While I can't post a pic right now here are the links to the respective online catalogs.


Paul

NOT Muskrats, but I would consider them to both be double-end trappers, which a muskrat is also a double-end trapper. The difference is obvious.

What's the difference in a double-end trapper and a double-end jack?

 

[kamagong]

Without knowing the materials......traditional?

I know that knife so I don't know if that affects my opinion, but here it is anyways. Slipjoint yes. Traditional no.

- Christian

 

[black mamba]

What's the difference in a double-end trapper and a double-end jack?

Maybe the length of the secondary blade? Trappers have two long blades, jacks usually have one long and one shorter.

 

[KnifeHead]

Well I have been holding back on my opinion on the materials question because I wanted to see what other people had to say about it...BUT...

...I personally feel that the material used doesn't necessarily make or break it as far as "traditional" goes. There is some pretty funky looking handle materials on some very old knives. I think if they had Ti back in the day, they would have put it on pocketknives...knowmsayin?

 

[KnifeHead]

Maybe the length of the secondary blade? Trappers have two long blades, jacks usually have one long and one shorter.

That's the way it looks to me but I was wrong once before...I think...I could be wrong about that.

Seriously, two long, narrow blades are a defining trait of a trapper, IMO

I remember my first conversation with T.Bose about trappers and half-trappers and single-blade trappers. I came away wanting to slap the guys that came up with these terms because they just don't make sense but there you have it.