Is it worth it to illegally carry a gun on a hike?

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Well if we start picking and choosing the laws we want to obey, we are headed down a slippery slope. How do you condemn someone else for insider trading when you are carrying illegal firearms? That smacks of arrogance. I'm a hypocrite--I do it myself regularly when it comes to speed limits: "hell, this road can easily handle 80, what's with the 55 limit?" But once we lose our respect for the law, we condone anarchy. Just my opinion. I suppose there are circumstances whereby I would be an advocate for civil disobedience or protest, but they haven't occurred in my lifetime.

I agree that there are some bad laws out there. I'm concerned that we seem to give up more liberties and rights every day. But I think we need to change bad laws, not break them.

To change the law we need to win over guys like SubaruSTi. I don't think antagonizing Subaru helps me. Me--to be selfish about this. It might be a better idea to challenge Subaru to re-examine his beliefs. Alienating him means we lost another vote--he and others like him end up thinking we are a bunch of, dare I say it, "gun nuts" who aren't worth listening to. (Apologies SubaruSTi if I am misrepresenting you :o.) Instead of gaining a supporter we have further polarized an opponent. We win the battle (?) and lose the war.

 
Rotte said:
Well if we start picking and choosing the laws we want to obey, we are headed down a slippery slope. How do you condemn someone else for insider trading when you are carrying illegal firearms? That smacks of arrogance. I'm a hypocrite--I do it myself regularly when it comes to speed limits: "hell, this road can easily handle 80, what's with the 55 limit?" But once we lose our respect for the law, we condone anarchy. Just my opinion. I suppose there are circumstances whereby I would be an advocate for civil disobedience or protest, but they haven't occurred in my lifetime.

I agree that there are some bad laws out there. I'm concerned that we seem to give up more liberties and rights every day. But I think we need to change bad laws, not break them.

To change the law we need to win over guys like SubaruSTi. I don't think antagonizing Subaru helps me. Me--to be selfish about this. It might be a better idea to challenge Subaru to re-examine his beliefs. Alienating him means we lost another vote--he and others like him end up thinking we are a bunch of, dare I say it, "gun nuts" who aren't worth listening to. (Apologies SubaruSTi if I am misrepresenting you :o.) Instead of gaining a supporter we have further polarized an opponent. We win the battle (?) and lose the war.

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You, sir, are a gawddamn genius and if I could, I'd shake your hand.

Very well put.:thumbup:
 
I am not for a lot of the laws we have and to me there should be no laws against carrying a firearm if you meet a few very basic requirements. I agree with a minimum age and I go along with a background check even though they can have a lot of loop holes. However until or if we change the laws within the system by throwing out politicians who would take away our rights, then best obey the law or be willing to face the fire.
 
Rotte said:

I agree that there are some bad laws out there. I'm concerned that we seem to give up more liberties and rights every day. But I think we need to change bad laws, not break them.
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This is exactly how I feel. While I don't agree with all of the laws that I am supposed to follow (speed limit was a good example), I still do, because I will most likely face consequences should I not follow them.

As far as my bear spray comment, I come from a state where we don't have to worry about bears all that much (just black bears, the racoons of the bear world), and I've never known a person to carry bear spray. I hadn't heard about the possible downsides to using bear spray on a person, but I don't really see them as an issue. First, whoever you end up spraying is likely attempting to carry out an illegal act on you. What are the odds that they will go to the police? What are the odds that they will be able to tell they were sprayed with bear spray and not some other type of pepper spray? I guess you could also just get one of the large cans of pepper spray for use against humans, but I feel that being out in the woods carrying a huge can of human pepper spray might also lead a DA to ask some questions.

In the end its your decision. I would try to go with the hunting angle if you want to carry, or else try to get a concealed permit. Even if you are limited in caliber choice, a .22 is still better than nothing. Maybe a .22 magnum would be a better choice if this is within the law. The Judge revolver (despite some negative reviews I've seen) would also be a good choice, as I assume it would be legal to use 410 while small game hunting. I personally would not break the law, and if I felt that I needed to in order to be safe, I would not go out.
 
runningboar said:
This is why our guns will be taken away, the rhetoric is working. Chris
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They will only be taken away, if YOU let it happen. The Constitution is the Constitution and the "Shall not be infringed" means exactly that. Even if they trash our current Constitution and Bill of Rights, they are more than just words on a piece of parchment. They are the rights bestowed on every man at birth, by his CREATOR.

Sorry, this is probably more political that is allowed and if so, please feel free to eliminate the post.
 
Rotte said:
Well if we start picking and choosing the laws we want to obey, we are headed down a slippery slope. How do you condemn someone else for insider trading when you are carrying illegal firearms? That smacks of arrogance. I'm a hypocrite--I do it myself regularly when it comes to speed limits: "hell, this road can easily handle 80, what's with the 55 limit?" But once we lose our respect for the law, we condone anarchy. Just my opinion. I suppose there are circumstances whereby I would be an advocate for civil disobedience or protest, but they haven't occurred in my lifetime.

I agree that there are some bad laws out there. I'm concerned that we seem to give up more liberties and rights every day. But I think we need to change bad laws, not break them.

To change the law we need to win over guys like SubaruSTi. I don't think antagonizing Subaru helps me. Me--to be selfish about this. It might be a better idea to challenge Subaru to re-examine his beliefs. Alienating him means we lost another vote--he and others like him end up thinking we are a bunch of, dare I say it, "gun nuts" who aren't worth listening to. (Apologies SubaruSTi if I am misrepresenting you :o.) Instead of gaining a supporter we have further polarized an opponent. We win the battle (?) and lose the war.

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In order for the people to be able to change the laws, they have to have an even playing field with the politicians and right now it is so out of balance, the people have lost their possition in the power structure here.

I agree that we need to obey the laws, less we suffer consequences and in some instances, dire consequences. However, when it becomes obvious that it is the agenda of a power structure to take control, by disarming, then it is the obligation of the people to disregard those laws and reclaim their power. Be it by peaceable means, or by exercising their Constitutional rights as our founders intended us to do.

To answer the original posters question. I open carry where allowed in this state. I never carry a firearm otherwise, unless I am transporting that firearm to the range, or when hunting and returning home again and even then, the firearm is in a locked case, separated from the ammunition and not posstioned so that I can access that firearm.
 
Rotte, you are correct. It is better to change the law than break it.

Here is the rub, the system has become completely and wholly corrupt, From the National, to the State, to the County, to the very MUNICIPALITY.

The current state of our laws does NOT exist to protect us. Not one law has been passed in the last 40 years that didn't have a $ attached to it to line somebodys pockets or give the authorities reason for otherwise illegal search and seizure. The seat belt laws and cell phone laws are NOT laws to protect you, they are designed to give an LEO reasonable cause to stop you, and during that stop they get to search you if they find more cause. Politicians sign off for laws for two reasons.

1 To get re-elected
2 As payment to those who contributed to them, or their family in some fashion

They DO NOT vote for laws based on whether they are "Good for the public" or the right thing to do.

The police can not and will not protect you. That is not their job. They are there to enforce laws, help you after the fact and keep civil peace.

The only person alive that can defend you looks at you in the mirror every morning.

You can't carry Bear Spray in my State. You can't carry pepper spray in an amount over 1/2 ounce. You can't carry a firearm. You can't carry a fixed blade knife and certainly not a machete.

I no longer belong to the NRA because they have abandon us. Nothing has been done on their part to regain ANY rights in my state.

For all of you that have said that the OP should not take his daughter in an area that there may be danger, I say WHY NOT? I have taken both of my daughters on off trail hikes. I probably would not take them in heavy grizzly country or ice climbing, but what gives ANYONE the right to limit me from going where I want to? What next, we all just stay inside because we are not allowed to defend ourselves and the Ghetto maggot down the street operates with impunity without getting busted?

You SHOULD NOT break the law, however neither I, nor the government nor anyone else SHOULD be telling you you do not have the GOD GIVEN right to defend yourself from another human being. Unfortunately, many states have said just that and the rest will be following soon enough, at which point we will all probably see a total breakdown as mentioned before. As this approaches, the gun laws get stricter because those in power get more concerned with the possibility of overthrow.

So my advice is, you shouldn't break the law, but you have the god given right to defend yourself. And I will leave you with a bit of wisdom given to me long ago. You should not break the law, but never, EVER break 2 laws at the same time.
 
I believe that the best advice here is to get a concealed weapons permit.

Here in Vt we don't have CWP/CCP, in my state the law says, anyone without a felony or DV conviction can carry any rifle, shotgun or hand gun concealed or not, except in federal buildings, schools, airports or bars as long as they don't point it at people with out a reason. Police however want people to carry concealed as it is not legal to cause a public disturbance. (and open carry freaks out the yuppies!) I think this is much more reasonable then other states. I am very glad to live in Vermont!!

The right to carry is a basic right of all law abiding citizens, it is a shame most U.S. citizens must get a permit to use this right, however, the more people who are willing to jump through the hoops to do so the safer our country will be IMO :)

For my part I carry my 1911 everyday
 
I live in norhthern California, and found its just its safer to just get a hunting licence. Even when I am not hunting, I have an excuse to have a gun. I live in pot country, so From early spring to late fall, it`s not safe in the woods. They even tell the forest rangers not to go too far out. So whenever I go out in the woods, I`m "hunting".
 
VTguy said:
I believe that the best advice here is to get a concealed weapons permit.
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Unfortunately here in California it is not that easy. Unless you live in a very rural area of Nothern California, or maybe even down towards San Diego, it is virtually impossible to get a permit to carry. Our state has been devistated by uber liberals who think it is their job to run out lives for us. We have some senetars including Mrs. Feinstein who are one of the worst things to ever happen to gun rights in California.
 
C Bryant said:
Unfortunately here in California it is not that easy. Unless you live in a very rural area of Nothern California, or maybe even down towards San Diego, it is virtually impossible to get a permit to carry. Our state has been devistated by uber liberals who think it is their job to run out lives for us. We have some senetars including Mrs. Feinstein who are one of the worst things to ever happen to gun rights in California.
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Orange county just got an anti-CCW sheriff. Lots of drama down there about that. Pretty much any county from Marin south to the Mexican border is no-issue for ordinary citizens, although there are some bright spots here and there in the iron wall. Also, the counties from the central coast up to Sacramento are no-issue for ordinary citizens.

We are trying to change all of that via the federal courts, but it takes time.

Also, the reason why California's political class is treating gun owners this way is because they don't like our world-view and they want us to leave. So many have, which is why the state is as anti-gun, anti-hunting and anti-wilderness use as it is. But more importantly, it's also why California is going broke. They chased out a lot of the earners and replaced them with people who are a drain on the system. Now we have a $40 billion shortfall in state revenues. Go figure.

Anyway, bottom line, it's never a good idea to break the law, but now is a particularly bad time. Things are changing for gun owners. My advice: be patient, or move to a county that will issue, or get a Utah out of state CCW and just go hiking in other states. Sucks, but that's the situation for right now.
 
Man, laws in some places make me sad.

I am not going to advocate you carry a firearm illegally.

I will tell you, do what you feel is needed to protect you and yours. Just weigh your options. Examine several legal ways, including open carry, CCWs, etc.., then, make an informed decision, and dont tell a soul if you choose that an illegally carried firearm is your way. I hope you and your daughter enjoy many, many years of safe wilderness time, and this issue will never ever have to be put into use.

Rotte, you and I are on the same page with this. Well put.:thumbup:

SubaruSTi- man, man, man....... Im not going to thrash you personal politics. I will say that I am interested in hearing more from you on why you have this opinion, and why take this stance on the topic. I respect anyones opinion, as long as there is a thought process behind it, whether its right or wrong. Your short posts were not backed up. Not that you wouldnt still have gotten thrashed, but at least it would have given a better idea of your stance. Have you ever had firearms training I wonder. Have you seen the face of gun violence first hand, and that is why you wrote that? I dont know. I am interested in hearing more though, and debating it with you in an adult, non-confrontational manner. Even if its through Emails, off the forum. Take care man, I hope you will rejoin the conversation.:thumbup:
 
Rotte said:
Well if we start picking and choosing the laws we want to obey, we are headed down a slippery slope.
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Rotte,

I don't disagree with your basic premise, it's just that you are concerned with sliding down the slippery slope and I already think we're sliding down the thing at terminal velocity and I'm trying to dodge trees. 8-)

That's not picking gnat shit outta peppa, either, my friend. It's the gospel.

How do you condemn someone else for insider trading when you are carrying illegal firearms?
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I don't think it can properly be framed that way. I think if you said, "How can you condemn someone else for insider trading when you are robbing banks?" That would be a lot more accurate to the situation unless you are looking at THE LAW as one monolithic entity and I don't think you are because you already copped to speeding. If you are looking at THE LAW as this one, huge thing not to be violated, then you are already a hypocrite if you speed, etc.

More on point, I can condemn someone else for insider trading because it's a form of swindling and cheating that was justly considered to be criminal activity whereas the Founding Fathers of this country NEVER, EVER, intended for the Citizenry to be disarmed and the only thing they can be faulted on is the vague nature of the Second Amendment which has allowed so many criminals in government to interpret it the way they see fit. Yet, I'm sure, the Founders were against swindling and taking advantage of people.

You look at today's news, 75%+ of the people you see involved in all of this wall street B.S. would have been tarred and feathered in the day's of the Founding Fathers, perhaps they would have been shot for their trouble...

That smacks of arrogance. I'm a hypocrite--I do it myself regularly when it comes to speed limits: "hell, this road can easily handle 80, what's with the 55 limit?" But once we lose our respect for the law, we condone anarchy.
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OK, so you condone anarchy? I mean, that's what you are saying. You are saying you are a hypocrite and you condone anarchy - but I don't really think you do. 8-)

But I think we need to change bad laws, not break them.
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The more powerful government becomes on all levels and the more ignorant the people become, the harder this is to do.

All I am saying with any of this is - just fly under the radar screen of life.

To change the law we need to win over guys like SubaruSTi. I don't think antagonizing Subaru helps me. Me--to be selfish about this. It might be a better idea to challenge Subaru to re-examine his beliefs. Alienating him means we lost another vote--he and others like him end up thinking we are a bunch of, dare I say it, "gun nuts" who aren't worth listening to. (Apologies SubaruSTi if I am misrepresenting you :o.) Instead of gaining a supporter we have further polarized an opponent. We win the battle (?) and lose the war.
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You are much more of an optimist than I am.
 
bulgron said:
Also, the reason why California's political class is treating gun owners this way is because they don't like our world-view and they want us to leave. So many have, which is why the state is as anti-gun, anti-hunting and anti-wilderness use as it is. But more importantly, it's also why California is going broke.
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Good point on the anti-wilderness. Public land is getting closed at an alarming rate. My father enjoys prospecting all over California, and is very active in a few mining clubs and organizations. Many of the lands that his clubs own the mineral rights to are being closed with continuted confrontation with Rangers and BLM under the guise that the prospecting is damaging the environment. I have been out with these clubs and know thier rules and politics. Let me tell you that they are some of the best stewards of the environment I have seen in an outdoor public organization or club. The organization PLP (Public Lands for the People) has been a HUGE help in the battle against all of that. Just one small step in the right direction. I believe they are mostly California based. Here is a link to their website if anybody is interested.

http://www.plp2.org/
 
That's only partially true about why this is happening. It is also caused by a whole lot of people who are, quite frankly, either stupid or mentally ill. They support laws, regulations and policies that then soil the nest and then they leave for Colorado, Oregon, Montana, Wyoming, etc., and the first thing they do is start bitching about their neighbor shooting in his backyard...or they move next to a gun range and they start bitching about that. Then they start pissbagging about everything, and about the "necks" and "fundies" that the place is "infested" with. They're like a f*uckin' fat man at the all-you-can-eat breakfast bar at Shoney's. "This stuff tastes like SHIT, I have to go up and get me some more."

They're lunatrons.
 
If you really feel that you need to carry a gun, shotguns generally have the least red tape and probably allowed many places where no other gun would be allowed. Check into it first.
 
Don Rearic said:
That's only partially true about why this is happening. It is also caused by a whole lot of people who are, quite frankly, either stupid or mentally ill. They support laws, regulations and policies that then soil the nest and then they leave for Colorado, Oregon, Montana, Wyoming, etc., and the first thing they do is start bitching about their neighbor shooting in his backyard...or they move next to a gun range and they start bitching about that. Then they start pissbagging about everything, and about the "necks" and "fundies" that the place is "infested" with. They're like a f*uckin' fat man at the all-you-can-eat breakfast bar at Shoney's. "This stuff tastes like SHIT, I have to go up and get me some more."

They're lunatrons.
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Well put Don!!!!:thumbup:
 
Don Rearic said:
...OK, so you condone anarchy? I mean, that's what you are saying. You are saying you are a hypocrite and you condone anarchy...
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I love your passion Don.

Most days I don't condone anarchy, but I must admit there are some days when it has it's appeal. :D Usually though I'm just a run of the mill hypocrite who likes to talk about principles more than actually living up to them. :o I do try though.

In the end, the law is the law and is one of the most useful human inventions of all time...even though it typical pisses me off more days than not.

 
Bushman5 said:
...just wondering why one couldn't just carry a firearm discretely ...
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Carrying discretely is no problem. But when there's a bang and a corpse, your cover's kind of blown. In a perfect world the authorities would say, "Jeez man, I'm sorry you had to go through that, I'm glad you protected your family, carry on."
If whoever's running the show in that county or state decides it's a bad shoot, we're not talking about a 60-minute TV show where it's all wrapped up in time for Monday Night Football. You're talking months and years of horrific, mind-numbing madness dealing with courts and lawyers and jail.

runningboar said:
This is why our guns will be taken away, the rhetoric is working. Chris
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No, they won't, and no it's not. There are more people like you, runningboar, than there are people like that dipstick. The dipsticks just get more attention. Keep fighting and keep voting, friend.

udtjim said:
...until or if we change the laws within the system by throwing out politicians who would take away our rights, then best obey the law or be willing to face the fire.
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Excellent point, sir. I'm still in favor of doing what you can to find a safe place to hike/camp/hunt/fish, and arming yourself to the fullest extent allowed by law in your area. In some cases, non-lethal means could save your life AND prevent a pack of legal wolves from ruining your life afterward.
 
First off, don't ever break the law in the presence of a child. If you as the adult/parent don't show respect for the order of society, they will grow up with no respect for rules of society! Remember you are the ultimate roll model for your child, don't ever do anything you don't want them to do.

Secondly, if you get caught with the gun and don't need it, you have screwed up your life, and your daughters life for the rest of your collective lives.

Look into your carry laws, alot of state's have provisions for concealed carry while hunting and/or fishing, if that is the case, make sure you carry a collapsible fishing pole and some light tackle while out and about and you might be covered.

Lastly an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Only travel in well traveled area's while you are hiking with your daughter, and find a group of young father's with children that can join you. A group of people is much safer than two.

Remember it is people who abuse the law that ruin it for others, if this is an issue for you contact your congressmen/women, governator, and others. If you really want to go the distance find an attorney that will help you file a class action lawsuit against the state and get others to sign a petition. Remember the second amendment says "a well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." and the Supreme Court of the United States says this is an individual right!
 
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