Is N690CO a super steel.

[Gator97]

It's very close to well known Takefu VG-10 steel. Main diffrence being extra ~3% Chromium, which makes it more stain resistant. Here:
Bohler-Uddeholm N690 vs. Takefu VG-10 steel composition comparison.
Few years Back, Aichi produced ZA-18 steel, which was heavily marketed as superior to VG-10, in fact ZA-18 is a copy of N690.
I doubt it's in the super steel category these days, but it's a very decent alloy when HT-ed and used properly.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

The funny thing is that 40 years ago 440C was considered a "super steel" and people complained about it being to hard to sharpen

Most all new stainless steels get the "Super Steel" label until they have been our for only about 3 years now, Then its on to whatever the latest is.

For a few of my custom knife designs, 440C with a Paul Bos HT is the cat's meow for performance and edge holding in the Kitchen or Field.

It real has a lot to do with the design, HT and of course the intended purpose.

 

[ursamajor]

I'd say so. It is extremely rust resistant, and has excellent edge retention. As to all of the baiting questions regarding "no such thing as a super steel", we all know what he is referencing. The snark gets old...

 

[knarfeng]

I went back looking to see what HRC Benchmade/Lonewolf used for their N680, but couldn't find much other than 57-59, probably similar to your experiences. I do enjoy that they list M390 as a "super-performance blade steel", can't argue with that terminology.

N690 is significantly different that N680.

If you read the review of the Monochrome to which I linked in my earlier post, you will see that Benchmade listed the hardness of that N690 blade at 58-60. When I measured mine, it was 59.

N690 is essentially 440C with some cobalt and Vanadium. When hardened to the same hardness N690 holds an edge noticeably better than 440C.

 

[dreadnought customs]

my edc for a while has been in n690 and the edge retention seems to be exceptionally above average when it comes to "suburban dude" types of tasks.

 

[strategy9]

I've used N690 from a production and custom heat-treat standpoint. The production versions I've tried have chipped along the edge very easily (ie. cutting wood). However, the customs in N690 I have are great performers at the same task (ie. cutting wood). The customs have never chipped on me, and they exhibit moderately good edge retention.

This makes me go "hmmmmm?" For one main reason... Working in steel manufacturing myself, albeit we make mostly parts for high pressure pumps, fittings, clamps, etc. (Not Knives), but thinking how our finishing dept. Works, and considering the added cobalt helps to harden the steel and make it stronger to resist cracking, (though not tougher in the event of existing micro fractures), I wonder if at the production level, some guy(gal) on an hourly wage has a bin full of knife blanks and is just grinding away all day and just tossing them into another bin when finished causing some micro fractures on the unheat-treated edges where the steel is thinnest, since at the production (factory) level they would have daily goals and quotas set that they would be trying to reach, and careless handling of the blanks, tossing metal against metal could be the culprit compromising that edge at a micro level unseen to the naked eye before heat treat even started, and certainly wouldn't be caught by standard QC inspection without putting each entire edge under a microscope, (which I can assure you they don't do), and the extra hard steel, while stronger to resist fractures, (after heat treat) would in fact be much more brittle comparatively after HT if micro fractures were already present.

Whereas at the custom level, (much) more care would be taken with every single blank, through every stage of manufacture...

Another reason this crossed my mind is N690 isn't a particularly tricky alloy to heat treat next to many others. Especially with top level HT equipment available, and most production Knives in n690 are in fact made by reputable mid-higher end manufacturers, its not like Schrade and CRKT are pumping them out in china, so I can't imagine they lack the skill/equipment to properly heat treat a pretty much standard level stainless with added cobalt? (And many custom makers are sending theirs out to get treated, and the HT houses would be doing the same specs with the same equipment as any upper end manufacturing plant).

Now I don't know for sure that this is the case, I have no idea for certain, but just a thought that crossed my mind as I see our guys tossing parts into bins as they grind 'em, trying to keep their numbers up, and you hear the "clink" each time a part is finished, whereas I can picture a custom maker much more carefully placing his blanks down after each step.

Could this be the difference maker between the same steel in a reputable production knife chipping vs. a custom knife in the same steel being far superior (then the production vers.) in edge strength as the alloy is intended, moreso then the HT itself which shouldn't be that difficult to get right for any factory with the proper equipment?

Anybody else have any thoughts on this?

 

[Cursum Perficio]

I'm no expert, but understood the term "super steel" to refer to steels utilizing the powdered metallurgy process, as opposed to ingot steel...no? So I guess by that definition N690CO is not a SS.

In my very amateur way of seeing things, I agree with this. The nearest thing to a definition of supersteel I've found is a steel the alloying contents of which are too great to be produced unless using the particle metallurgy process.
I have no experience with N690CO, but as stated above, it's not a powder steel. Doesn't mean it isn't a very good blade steel though.

For a bit of perspective, a Ferrari is a supercar. It's also a car, that performs a lot better than most other cars.

 

[Sunyata]

The funny thing is that 40 years ago 440C was considered a "super steel" and people complained about it being to hard to sharpen

Probably the same folks who still to this day badmouth anything newer than D2 on every forum.

Probably still using the same inferior sharpening gear

 

[marthinus]

As to "supersteels". My view on the matter is that "supersteel" should not be associated with wear resistance. It should refer to the process involved in providing a pure alloy with little to no inclusions. One such steel is Nitrobe-77 (believe it is a 600 series stainless steel) as an example. It is an exceptionally pure alloy and a lot of detail goes into making in that way, yet it is not mentioned as a "supersteel" by some just because it is not invented as a wear resistant steel. There seems to be a general thought that plastic mold steels are "supersteels".

As to N690. It is an ingot steel that gives the user a great steel to use for an all around knife, with good corrosion resistance and edge performance while still being able to be sharpened by the "average Joe" at a reasonable price.

Comments from Phil Wilson:

"This is not a particle based steel and the larger grain size contributes to
very aggressive cutting personality. When sharpened on a medium Silicon carbide or diamond
stone it will cut abrasive materials like cardboard and rope very nicely. The corrosion resistance
is excellent due to the large chromium content so I think this grade will make a very versatile all
around use knife. I have done a couple fillet knives with N690 and have tested it on rope and
cutting fir. At 60 HRC and a very thin edge I did not detect any chipping but some incipient
rolling. This shows good ductility and means the heat treat is close to optimum.

This steel has been used by many European production and
custom makers for years and it is obvious why it is one of the standby steels over there.
Another nice factor is that N690 is very reasonable priced compared to other commonly used
blade steels."

N690 is used by some mango farmers here in South Africa for pruning and harvesting and they are very pleased with the steels performance.

 

[bodog]

In my very amateur way of seeing things, I agree with this. The nearest thing to a definition of supersteel I've found is a steel the alloying contents of which are too great to be produced unless using the particle metallurgy process.
I have no experience with N690CO, but as stated above, it's not a powder steel. Doesn't mean it isn't a very good blade steel though.

For a bit of perspective, a Ferrari is a supercar. It's also a car, that performs a lot better than most other cars.

That's a really good analogy worth mentioning. A Lamborghini may, in fact, be a supercar, but you'd never see one at a job site. What you'd see on the job are practical cars and trucks selected specifically because 1) the guys on the job need a solid commuter car, or 2) they need some kind of work truck or van capable of carrying a load and won't fall apart during actual use.

Lamborghinis are nice to look at and admire but they're very unsuited for most people and their actual needs when it comes to real work and real life. If someone wants to buy and drive a Lamborghini, that's cool, good for them, nothing wrong with it, but know that if they sing praises of that Lamborghini it's not because they put it to real use at a real job. For my work I'd rather have a work truck tailored by a great mechanic that can handle whatever I demand of it on a daily basis without worrying too much about whether it will fall apart on me during some rough duties.

What's really common though is that people who don't know look at some of these tests and say "holy crap, that Lamborghini is awesome! Look at all these guys who drive them and say they're great!" They then buy a Lamborghini and find that it's completely unsuitable for their job because a lot of the great reviews come from people that 1) don't actually drive that Lamborghini other than down the main street of their small town or 2) from people who take it to a race track and clock how fast it is on the quarter mile. Both of those situations are fine but that doesn't mean the car would be good for anyone doing real work UNLESS they simply need a car that goes fast. Most people would quite possibly be happier and more satisfied spending their money on a good truck beefed up by a great mechanic or a solid commuter car that's comfortable and gets good gas mileage.

It should be mentioned that a good mechanic can tinker with a Lamborghini and make it a decent commuter car thats still fast with bad gas mileage but no one can make it suitable for dirty, tough jobs. You need to start with a completely different platform for actual rough, prolonged use on a job.

 

[B34NS]

N690 is significantly different that N680.

If you read the review of the Monochrome to which I linked in my earlier post, you will see that Benchmade listed the hardness of that N690 blade at 58-60. When I measured mine, it was 59.

N690 is essentially 440C with some cobalt and Vanadium. When hardened to the same hardness N690 holds an edge noticeably better than 440C.

Of course, I was curious since you have benchmade n690 if you knew of anywhere on their site or somewhere where they might shed light on what they did with n680and other steels since their product pages are a little light. I can always just get what I have tested too.

 

[ATJ999]

N690CO
I've been wanting to try this steel too. Seems like it would make a great fishing knife! 440C with cobalt and vanadium, sounds awesome... with a good HT and grind!

 

[fsatsil]

That's a really good analogy worth mentioning. A Lamborghini may, in fact, be a supercar, but you'd never see one at a job site. What you'd see on the job are practical cars and trucks selected specifically because 1) the guys on the job need a solid commuter car, or 2) they need some kind of work truck or van capable of carrying a load and won't fall apart during actual use.

Lamborghinis are nice to look at and admire but they're very unsuited for most people and their actual needs when it comes to real work and real life. If someone wants to buy and drive a Lamborghini, that's cool, good for them, nothing wrong with it, but know that if they sing praises of that Lamborghini it's not because they put it to real use at a real job. For my work I'd rather have a work truck tailored by a great mechanic that can handle whatever I demand of it on a daily basis without worrying too much about whether it will fall apart on me during some rough duties.

What's really common though is that people who don't know look at some of these tests and say "holy crap, that Lamborghini is awesome! Look at all these guys who drive them and say they're great!" They then buy a Lamborghini and find that it's completely unsuitable for their job because a lot of the great reviews come from people that 1) don't actually drive that Lamborghini other than down the main street of their small town or 2) from people who take it to a race track and clock how fast it is on the quarter mile. Both of those situations are fine but that doesn't mean the car would be good for anyone doing real work UNLESS they simply need a car that goes fast. Most people would quite possibly be happier and more satisfied spending their money on a good truck beefed up by a great mechanic or a solid commuter car that's comfortable and gets good gas mileage.

It should be mentioned that a good mechanic can tinker with a Lamborghini and make it a decent commuter car thats still fast with bad gas mileage but no one can make it suitable for dirty, tough jobs. You need to start with a completely different platform for actual rough, prolonged use on a job.

I get what you are trying to say but you honestly think that the person that's in the market for an exotic like a Lamborgini is going to be happy with a beefed up truck or a solid commuter car?
C'mon man

 

[PURPLEDC]

That's a really good analogy worth mentioning. A Lamborghini may, in fact, be a supercar, but you'd never see one at a job site. What you'd see on the job are practical cars and trucks selected specifically because 1) the guys on the job need a solid commuter car, or 2) they need some kind of work truck or van capable of carrying a load and won't fall apart during actual use.

Lamborghinis are nice to look at and admire but they're very unsuited for most people and their actual needs when it comes to real work and real life. If someone wants to buy and drive a Lamborghini, that's cool, good for them, nothing wrong with it, but know that if they sing praises of that Lamborghini it's not because they put it to real use at a real job. For my work I'd rather have a work truck tailored by a great mechanic that can handle whatever I demand of it on a daily basis without worrying too much about whether it will fall apart on me during some rough duties.

What's really common though is that people who don't know look at some of these tests and say "holy crap, that Lamborghini is awesome! Look at all these guys who drive them and say they're great!" They then buy a Lamborghini and find that it's completely unsuitable for their job because a lot of the great reviews come from people that 1) don't actually drive that Lamborghini other than down the main street of their small town or 2) from people who take it to a race track and clock how fast it is on the quarter mile. Both of those situations are fine but that doesn't mean the car would be good for anyone doing real work UNLESS they simply need a car that goes fast. Most people would quite possibly be happier and more satisfied spending their money on a good truck beefed up by a great mechanic or a solid commuter car that's comfortable and gets good gas mileage.

It should be mentioned that a good mechanic can tinker with a Lamborghini and make it a decent commuter car thats still fast with bad gas mileage but no one can make it suitable for dirty, tough jobs. You need to start with a completely different platform for actual rough, prolonged use on a job.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamborghini_LM002

 

[fsatsil]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamborghini_LM002

They did start out building tractors so I guess that makes sense

 

[KingMC]

No, I don't consider it a super-steel, simply because of all the other steels that outperform it in almost every category. Maybe 10 years ago, but not now; not with the likes of 154CM being thought of as overpriced when put on an Emerson or a Benchmade.

 

[bodog]

I get what you are trying to say but you honestly think that the person that's in the market for an exotic like a Lamborgini is going to be happy with a beefed up truck or a solid commuter car?
C'mon man

Yes, I do believe people seeking a work truck are kind of duped into buying a Lamborghini when all they see are people taking about how well a Lamborghini excels at work, but all those people talking about it don't quantify what they actually do that says a Lamborghini is a great utility vehicle. People can look at a Lamborghini and tell what it was made for. people can look at a work truck and tell what IT was made for. But when steels are new they all look the same.

Most people don't read about and test knives as much as we do. Most people step quickly into something completely inappropriate based on reviews because we've all thought knives were simple tools and your choices are either stainless or not. "Ooh, look, the best stainless that everyone raves about!" Now, that stainless is better than the crap gas station knife they used to carry so to them it's great at first. Couple a bunch of reviews from guys who simply prefer this steel or that and they think they have a winner until it's time to really, truly put that tool to work. Then they see that that steel doesn't seem to perform that much better than that junk no name brand. And then those guys say it's all pointless because there's so little noticeable difference. If they'd just picked what they needed to begin with, for example a proper work truck, then they may be let down right at the beginning because work trucks aren't flashy and raved about, but give that truck a week or two on an actual job and the guy is sold.

I've come to the conclusion that like Amazon, most people's reviews do not really accurately describe what it is they're reviewing unless they get pretty detailed with it. For instance, I once bought an HK knife based on many, many great reviews. I got it in hand and immediately wondered what the good reviews were about. It was a flimsy knife. I cannot see anyone actually using that knife for anything more than as a letter opener, seriously. All I could think was that the majority of people have no use for a working utility knife so in their mind it anything with brand "x" printed on it with a bunch of good attributes on paper make a great knife. Hell, that brand and its features sold me, too. I lost that knife and don't care in the slightest bit. I wouldn't have given to someone unless I thought they were lazy.

Take for instance the top 3 steels thread. Have many people tried 30 different steels and really thought about what they do with them to qualify 3 steels as their favorites? Have I? Eh, maybe something like10 quality steels from a couple reputable companies and a handful of crap steels. I have really used those pretty hard and I feel like I can comment with some amount of experience more than cardboard cutting and envelope opening, but I'm by no means an expert. I have tried to get experience with different classes of steels to see which works best for me and my uses and I'll offer which I like and dislike and the reasons why as well to offer a counterbalance to guys who buy knives and only occasionally use them for anything that would qualify as blue collar, rough work. When a guy wants a knife that stands up to those rigors day in and day out, what is popular may very well not be what he's looking for. It's hard to stay away from the flashing lights and mob opinions and mentality. You think there must be some validity to what they're screaming about. But like Justin Bieber having 200,000,000 screaming fans around the world, I cannot stand his music. It just doesn't work for me. Maybe I'm too rough around the edges, I don't know. If someone likes Justin Bieber, great for them. The mob scene and unqualified reviews have tricked me before and I don't want to see other working class guys waste their money several times before finding something that works for them. A lot of these guys don't have the time, money, or inclination to keep trying different classes of steel. Hell, for most guys it's hard enough to spend more than 50 bucks on ONE knife, let alone 1500 bucks and more on ten just to find one that performs.

 

[bodog]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamborghini_LM002

Thanks for bringing that up. Perfect example, though I don't think you meant it that way. Seriously, great analogy. People say "lamborghini? Man, that must be a sweet ride for all kinds of rough stuff, it must be if it's that expensive! Talk about a grail off road ride!" But then when put to some real work in a real world environment for which it was built, people thought the much less sexy and MUCH less prestigious humvee was actually better for the job at hand.

http://www.quora.com/How-does-a-Lam...er-H1-performance-wise-when-going-off-roading

https://grrc.goodwood.com/road/news...-army-humvee-catch-though#EitBLAZXQ6lwAaTT.97

"The LM002 turned out not be be that adept as a tool for covering ground in the Middle East (it was originally aimed at companies in the oil-exploration business). Having failed in the primary task it was built for..."

"The Humvee by comparison wasn’t much of a dragster and had zero exotic appeal. However it was extremely tough, very good at negotiating awkward terrain, required little maintenance compared to the LM002..."

Now, back to knives, and thanks for the slow pitch.

 

[jonnyt16]

Thanks for bringing that up. Perfect example, though I don't think you meant it that way. Seriously, great analogy. People say "lamborghini? Man, that must be a sweet ride for all kinds of rough stuff, it must be if it's that expensive! Talk about a grail off road ride!" But then when put to some real work in a real world environment for which it was built, people thought the much less sexy and MUCH less prestigious humvee was actually better for the job at hand.

http://www.quora.com/How-does-a-Lam...er-H1-performance-wise-when-going-off-roading

https://grrc.goodwood.com/road/news...-army-humvee-catch-though#EitBLAZXQ6lwAaTT.97

"The LM002 turned out not be be that adept as a tool for covering ground in the Middle East (it was originally aimed at companies in the oil-exploration business). Having failed in the primary task it was built for..."

"The Humvee by comparison wasn’t much of a dragster and had zero exotic appeal. However it was extremely tough, very good at negotiating awkward terrain, required little maintenance compared to the LM002..."

Now, back to knives, and thanks for the slow pitch.

I'll still take my Jeep over those two any day of the week.

 

[cchu518]

440c makes for a great edc. The mini presidio ultra and my canal street cutlery trapper are in 440c and they're both great edc's for being so well rounded. I had a couple of Spyderco slip it's in 690 and they held up to normal use well too.

Not like Elmax or s35v or cpm4 but if we're talking regular edc use 690 works great for me at least. I would take swiping an edge over a sharp maker for 30 seconds over having to work it for a while in most cases for regular edc. Nobody's got time for that. Lol. That said the solid super user regular steels like Elmax and s35v sharpen up super easy too. So it's a tough call. I would be neutral in it as a reason for getting a new knife. I feel the same way about bd1. No harm no foul.