Is "Scales" a Misnomer?

Handles is a much older term I think (both in the US and Europe).
 
Interesting discussion guys.

I have in the past at times mixed my description of the Covers and called them Scales at times.
I am sure to have seen the Covers referred to as Scales - but obviously not by an Authority on the subject.
I will be sure to keep on track from. Ow thanks to you guys.
 
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How does this work on something linerless like the peasant knife (or a number of modern folders)?
In those cases the scales/liners are the same thing.
 
Since P-Bucket's censorship of images, I lost a shot of my Oxford Shorter Dictionary's 1933 entry for scales. It says it is used in the cutlery business for both razors and pocket-knives having the meaning of both handles and liners inside the knife.It references it from 1843 as far as I recall.
 
Great stuff, guys! I was aware of the liner || scale nomenclature, but am really enjoying some of the finer distinctions and historical references. :thumbsup:

Will Power said:
Since P-Bucket's censorship of images, I lost a shot of my Oxford Shorter Dictionary's 1933 entry for scales. It says it is used in the cutlery business for both razors and pocket-knives having the meaning of both handles and liners inside the knife.It references it from 1843 as far as I recall.
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Will, if you still have the image on your Photobucket? When you copy its link here, remove any text after .jpg, and add ~original. The formatting within the IMG brackets should look something like at the end,

willcatalog.jpg~original

And your image *should* show here. For now. Give it a try? I'd like to see what you're describing. :)

~ P.
 
pertinux said:
nd your image *should* show here. For now. Give it a try? I'd like to see what you're describing. :)
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Off topic but I tried that on an old post of mine that was showing the dreaded PB notice. It seems to work. Very cool Sarah. I guess we'll see how long it takes before they notice that.
 
Lady & gents, all I can tell you is on fixed blade knives here in Merica........ I've heard and used the term Scales for full tang bladed two piece handles, Liners are the colored material we place in between the tang & the Scales in the 20 plus years of making and dealing with other makers. ............,,,,,,,,Haven't ever made small traditional folding pocket knives so you are welcome to discuss the nomenclature & History!
 
Will Power said:
Since P-Bucket's censorship of images, I lost a shot of my Oxford Shorter Dictionary's 1933 entry for scales. It says it is used in the cutlery business for both razors and pocket-knives having the meaning of both handles and liners inside the knife.It references it from 1843 as far as I recall.
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That's interesting. Levine's Guide does have an entry for "handle scales or handle covers"

I have never seen "scales" in use that way in old writing about pocket knives. The use that I've seen is pretty well described by this 1912 encyclopedia:

"Each knife, roughly speaking, consists of two parts, the blade and the handle, but each of these, from the manufacturer's standpoint, is composed of a number of parts.............The handle, in turn, includes (1) the horn, ivory, or other material which is grasped by the hand, and which portion alone is technically called the handle; (2) the scale, which is the brass or iron lining of the handle.........."

That seems consistent with what I've seen in old writing. It is also fairly similar to the use by modern knife companies like GEC and CSC.
 
Because of this thread I had to google "knife scales" what I found was that a lot of knife maker supply type companies that are calling the cover materials knife scales. Also going to images there were almost completely photos of knife covers including tons of traditionals. Now like most of you I'm a traditional knife collector so for me I'll keep calling them covers, however in 2017 for most folks the two terms are interchangeable. Things change including terminology it's like thee and thou can still be found in the KJV Bible but in modern literature and speech we now say you. Great thread I'm learning a lot. :thumbsup:
 
Covers seems more accurate than scales, but I have to say, I've been around knives and cutlers my whole life, read a lot about them, and written a fair bit about them too, and before I started posting here on The Porch, I don't think I'd even heard the term 'covers' :thumbsup:
 
Common usage does shape meaning but the urban dictionary hasn't replaced the Oxford dictionary... yet. ;) Even now, some book terms are collector terms that were never used in the industry.

In the case of material providers, the materials are provided for both fixed blades and pocket knives. The quote from Eric makes a distinction in the terms for both. The materials provider may not make that distinction or have any interest in history.

I think history is uniquely relevant to traditional knives compared to other knives.

GEC thought it was worthwhile to use the old terms as they try to "continually strive to make our pocket knives reminiscent of that era, an improbable task without the use of bygone manufacturing, but also, a bygone terminology."

GEC says
"Just as with all other types of manufacturing, there are names and terms specifically used in the cutlery industry. We use it here at Great Eastern Cutlery on an everyday basis. This terminology from 100 years ago was conveyed by highly skilled cutlers from one cutlery company to another throughout their careers. But in the 21st century, skilled cutlery workers are nearly nonexistent, and there are no trade schools for cutlery manufacturing, so new employees here at Great Eastern Cutlery have the difficult task of not only learning the manufacturing process but also the terminology. The Knife Makers Who Went West by Harvey Platts is an excellent book to read about the cutlery manufacturing history in the United States. The book follows the lives of four generations of the Platts family in the cutlery industry. A portion of that book that includes pocket knife assembly diagrams and terminology handed down through generations is copied below. We use the same terminology here at Great Eastern Cutlery."

From GEC's terminology:
Cover
The slab of material that forms the side of a knife handle. “Covering” refers to the manufacturing operation of fastening the cover to the handle scale.

Scale
The lining or side of a pocket knife, usually made of brass. The scale usually has a cover attached on the outside, but on some knives the scale also functions as a cover. A “center” scale is assembled in the middle of each knife to separate the operating parts from each other. A center scale can be full scale or a cut-out scale that has the front part cut out. A “cut-out” scale may also be placed in the side of a knife to provide more working clearance for the blade.
 
Jack Black said:
Covers seems more accurate than scales, but I have to say, I've been around knives and cutlers my whole life, read a lot about them, and written a fair bit about them too, and before I started posting here on The Porch, I don't think I'd even heard the term 'covers' :thumbsup:
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Jack, same here! Never heard it until here from a across the pond perspective! Companies may be looking for older or different terms as a bit of marketing.
 
I had a look in the GEC book yesterday, and noted that Samuel Mason's 1862 Patent Application reproduced there uses the word 'handles' throughout.
 
The 1907 (British) Army & Navy catalogue uses the term 'scales', as well as 'handle'.
 
The photos aren't showing up in the old catalog topic. Can you post it here? Is it referring to a knife with all metal handles or with bone/wood/horn pinned on?
 
Interestingly the late 19th century/early 20th century catalogue of W. Jno. Baker of Sydney Australia does not use any of the terms above, but rather 'haft' eg 'stag haft'.
 
supratentorial said:
The photos aren't showing up in the old catalog topic. Can you post it here? Is it referring to a knife with all metal handles or with bone/wood/horn pinned on?
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I have images of 12 pages. The scales mentioned are Nylonite, silver, nickel silver, German silver, ivory, sterling silver, aluminium, steel, and Platinoid. The terms 'handle' and 'handles' are also used, but primarily 'scales' :thumbsup: I'll have a look through some of my other reference material, see what I can turn up :thumbsup:
 
The Seth Birdwell 1971 catalogue uses 'handles'.
 
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