- Joined
- Mar 7, 2005
- Messages
- 1,063
Cliff Stamp has long argued that the framelock was not a suitable design for a hard-use folder. For example, Cliff wrote:
I have read where you make similar claims in other threads, virtually all threads involving Sebenza folders or other framelocks to which you reply. I am at odds with your assertion Cliff. You contend that frame locks are very prone to failure by torque loads and are thus not suitable for hard use. In fact, you claim that framelock are so easy to induce failure in that they are unsuitable for all but the lightest cutting, and that they can fail cutting cardboard or a weed. That is a very extreme statement.
I base my objections based on several grounds. First, they are contrary to my own observations. I carried a Sebenza as an EDC for several years, actually I carried several over the years. I carried both the large and small, classic and regular, even a flat grind with dual thumb studs and a swedge for a little while. I used them on a daily basis, cutting acres of cardboard, tons of food prep, utility work and so on. Never once did the lock fail or come close to it. Never once did I fear lock failure, and in fact it was the sense of security from the frame lock that really drew me to the knife, that and it decent cutting efficiency.
I am not alone in my observation, this forum is filled with tradesman, military, law enforcement, and others that have used their Sebenza and other frame lock folders very hard, and there have been virtually no reports of failure. Again, the security and strength of the frame lock is what often times drew them to the knife and is most often a high source of praise.
Consider as well that many people designing hard use knives select the framelock to build their hard use folders around. Strider, Reeves, Anso, Weiland, Mayo, Darrel Ralph, Ken Onion, Cuchiera, Atwood, Emerson, Clark, Korth, Obenauf, Carson. . . The list goes on and on. All these skilled knifemakers who base their occupation on making and designing knives, who have invested small fortunes in machines, time and designs. All are making knives intended for hard use with framelocks. Surely they are not all mislead, misguided and mistaken??? From your posts, it would seem these makers are declaring the earth to be flat.
Still, I thought I would give your claims a fair chance. So I did as you suggest. I took two frame lock knives, a Kershaw Leek and a Benchmade 635 and subjected them to all the uses you describe in the search for the failure you claim will so easily happen. The lock failure that makes frame locks virtually useless I your mind. Though I did these tests with both knives, I will feature the Kershaw, the cheaper, less burly of the pair.
All tests were performed holding the knife in the two most often used positions, the saber grip and the hammer grip;
Test #1: Cardboard
As you have described, I took the knife, stuck the blade in, and twisted it around. I twisted to the left, I twisted to the right. I could have twisted all night. I made the cardboard look like swiss cheese The lock does not fail. What happens? The cardboard gets a hole in it.
Test #2
Yep, I did this too. I rocked the bade into a chunk of scrap lumber and applied pressure to the side, up and down. I twisted, like the devil, the lock held tight. The clip came loose a bit, and I think I stripped one of the body screws a little since I was applying a good bit of force. I was also holding the block together with my off hand so it would not split, I wanted the pressure on the knife. In fact the harder I squeezed the knife, the tighter it locks, the more secure it becomes. The index finger reinforces the lock. That is one of the things that makes a framelock so secure.
I have to tell you, I rarely have occasion to do this with a folder, it is simply not what I use a cutting tool for. Then I thought of a situation where people do twist there knives, to make the knife into a make-shift drill to put holes in objects, plastic, wood etc. In bushcraft, you use the knife like that to make a hole in wood to create fireboards (for friction fire lighting, see Ron Hoods Video #1) and to make certain types of traps, etc.
Test #3:
I took another piece of scrap lumber and used the Kershaw as a drill, spinning it to put holes in the wood. I pretended I was Tom Mayo. The lock never failed. Never came close.
How does a frame lock disengage in use? The same way as when it is not in use, you put pressure across the lock bar moving it away from the face of the tang. So when you use the knife, you have to make sure you dont do that. You can not use the knife in an edge up grip and twist. You dont push across the lockbar with your fingers or thumb, or it will release. That is not a failure, that is what it is designed to do.
So, yes this limits the way in which you can use the knife, but all locking folders have similar limitations. If you depress the lock on the lockback, pull back the lock bar on an axis, move the bar on a compression, pull the plunger on a plunger lock, push the button on a button lock, they will disengage as well. This is not lock failure, this is user failure.
Here are a couple analogies to illustrate what I mean. When Glock pistols where first being introduced to the American Law Enforcement market in mass numbers (Early 90s) there were a spate of accidental discharges, and many people tried to label the gun as unsafe, that the gun had somehow failed. Subsequent investigation showed that the guns fired because people did not obey a fundamental rule of firearm safety, they put their finger inside the trigger guard when they did not want the weapon to fire. They pulled the trigger, the gun went bang. It worked as it was designed to, there was no failure of the gun, there was a failure of the user.
Here is a very true story: A few years back my wife took our kids to the library for a reading club meeting. On the way they stopped for gas at a local gas station. My wife pulled her car in on the wrong side of the pump. She got out, realized the gas cap was on the other side, got back in the car, pulled it forward, then backed up to put the car on the other side of the pump. While backing up, she hit the concrete post in front of the gas pump, denting the bumper and rear quarter panel and busting the tail light. The car did not have a reverse failure. It did what it was designed to, it went backwards when it was put in reverse and given gas. The car did not fail. As it turns out, the accident was actually my fault, despite the fact that I was 17 miles away at my desk when it happened. You have to be (or been) married to understand the logic in that. You can either be right or you can be happy.
My point is this, if you are using the frame lock in such a way as to make it fail, and tens of thousands of others are using the same lock design without failure, maybe it is not the lock that is the problem. Maybe the lock is fine, and it is just not compatible with your style of use, the way you hold the knife.
Tens of thousands of people believe that the Frame lock is a suitable design for a hard use folder and I think they are right.
My questions for the membership here is simple:
What are your experiences with frame lock folders?
Have you ever had one fail?
If so, under what circumstances?
Do you think the Frame lock design is suitable for a hard use folder?
I have no personal interest as EDC users in liner/frame locks outside of light precision cutters, even then I would prefer a more secure lock because even very slim and narrow blades like the Vapor are capable of doing an awful lot of utility work but are restricted by the lock releasing.
For example, rock the blade into a piece of wood, torquing up and down on the knife to drive the knife deeper into the wood and once it gets too tightly bound then just rotate the wrist to split the wood apart. The vapor easily has enough blade strength to do this, but the lock will release.
If I am going to carry a knife which is so restricted in use that it can't do this I'll simply carry a well made, deeply hollow ground stockman with 1/16" full hard blades. The Alias is a nice looking knife though, I can see how a lot of people would carry it.
-Cliff
I have read where you make similar claims in other threads, virtually all threads involving Sebenza folders or other framelocks to which you reply. I am at odds with your assertion Cliff. You contend that frame locks are very prone to failure by torque loads and are thus not suitable for hard use. In fact, you claim that framelock are so easy to induce failure in that they are unsuitable for all but the lightest cutting, and that they can fail cutting cardboard or a weed. That is a very extreme statement.
I base my objections based on several grounds. First, they are contrary to my own observations. I carried a Sebenza as an EDC for several years, actually I carried several over the years. I carried both the large and small, classic and regular, even a flat grind with dual thumb studs and a swedge for a little while. I used them on a daily basis, cutting acres of cardboard, tons of food prep, utility work and so on. Never once did the lock fail or come close to it. Never once did I fear lock failure, and in fact it was the sense of security from the frame lock that really drew me to the knife, that and it decent cutting efficiency.
I am not alone in my observation, this forum is filled with tradesman, military, law enforcement, and others that have used their Sebenza and other frame lock folders very hard, and there have been virtually no reports of failure. Again, the security and strength of the frame lock is what often times drew them to the knife and is most often a high source of praise.
Consider as well that many people designing hard use knives select the framelock to build their hard use folders around. Strider, Reeves, Anso, Weiland, Mayo, Darrel Ralph, Ken Onion, Cuchiera, Atwood, Emerson, Clark, Korth, Obenauf, Carson. . . The list goes on and on. All these skilled knifemakers who base their occupation on making and designing knives, who have invested small fortunes in machines, time and designs. All are making knives intended for hard use with framelocks. Surely they are not all mislead, misguided and mistaken??? From your posts, it would seem these makers are declaring the earth to be flat.
Still, I thought I would give your claims a fair chance. So I did as you suggest. I took two frame lock knives, a Kershaw Leek and a Benchmade 635 and subjected them to all the uses you describe in the search for the failure you claim will so easily happen. The lock failure that makes frame locks virtually useless I your mind. Though I did these tests with both knives, I will feature the Kershaw, the cheaper, less burly of the pair.

All tests were performed holding the knife in the two most often used positions, the saber grip and the hammer grip;
Test #1: Cardboard
As you have described, I took the knife, stuck the blade in, and twisted it around. I twisted to the left, I twisted to the right. I could have twisted all night. I made the cardboard look like swiss cheese The lock does not fail. What happens? The cardboard gets a hole in it.

Test #2
rock the blade into a piece of wood, torquing up and down on the knife to drive the knife deeper into the wood and once it gets too tightly bound then just rotate the wrist to split the wood apart. The vapor easily has enough blade strength to do this, but the lock will release.
Yep, I did this too. I rocked the bade into a chunk of scrap lumber and applied pressure to the side, up and down. I twisted, like the devil, the lock held tight. The clip came loose a bit, and I think I stripped one of the body screws a little since I was applying a good bit of force. I was also holding the block together with my off hand so it would not split, I wanted the pressure on the knife. In fact the harder I squeezed the knife, the tighter it locks, the more secure it becomes. The index finger reinforces the lock. That is one of the things that makes a framelock so secure.

I have to tell you, I rarely have occasion to do this with a folder, it is simply not what I use a cutting tool for. Then I thought of a situation where people do twist there knives, to make the knife into a make-shift drill to put holes in objects, plastic, wood etc. In bushcraft, you use the knife like that to make a hole in wood to create fireboards (for friction fire lighting, see Ron Hoods Video #1) and to make certain types of traps, etc.
Test #3:
I took another piece of scrap lumber and used the Kershaw as a drill, spinning it to put holes in the wood. I pretended I was Tom Mayo. The lock never failed. Never came close.

How does a frame lock disengage in use? The same way as when it is not in use, you put pressure across the lock bar moving it away from the face of the tang. So when you use the knife, you have to make sure you dont do that. You can not use the knife in an edge up grip and twist. You dont push across the lockbar with your fingers or thumb, or it will release. That is not a failure, that is what it is designed to do.
So, yes this limits the way in which you can use the knife, but all locking folders have similar limitations. If you depress the lock on the lockback, pull back the lock bar on an axis, move the bar on a compression, pull the plunger on a plunger lock, push the button on a button lock, they will disengage as well. This is not lock failure, this is user failure.
Here are a couple analogies to illustrate what I mean. When Glock pistols where first being introduced to the American Law Enforcement market in mass numbers (Early 90s) there were a spate of accidental discharges, and many people tried to label the gun as unsafe, that the gun had somehow failed. Subsequent investigation showed that the guns fired because people did not obey a fundamental rule of firearm safety, they put their finger inside the trigger guard when they did not want the weapon to fire. They pulled the trigger, the gun went bang. It worked as it was designed to, there was no failure of the gun, there was a failure of the user.
Here is a very true story: A few years back my wife took our kids to the library for a reading club meeting. On the way they stopped for gas at a local gas station. My wife pulled her car in on the wrong side of the pump. She got out, realized the gas cap was on the other side, got back in the car, pulled it forward, then backed up to put the car on the other side of the pump. While backing up, she hit the concrete post in front of the gas pump, denting the bumper and rear quarter panel and busting the tail light. The car did not have a reverse failure. It did what it was designed to, it went backwards when it was put in reverse and given gas. The car did not fail. As it turns out, the accident was actually my fault, despite the fact that I was 17 miles away at my desk when it happened. You have to be (or been) married to understand the logic in that. You can either be right or you can be happy.
My point is this, if you are using the frame lock in such a way as to make it fail, and tens of thousands of others are using the same lock design without failure, maybe it is not the lock that is the problem. Maybe the lock is fine, and it is just not compatible with your style of use, the way you hold the knife.
Tens of thousands of people believe that the Frame lock is a suitable design for a hard use folder and I think they are right.
My questions for the membership here is simple:
What are your experiences with frame lock folders?
Have you ever had one fail?
If so, under what circumstances?
Do you think the Frame lock design is suitable for a hard use folder?