Is the Framelock a suitable design for a hard-use folder???

[Cliff Stamp]

Saying that thousands of people carry the knives without issue is not really what I would call a strong argument for any style of lock...

The biggest problem is perspective, look at the comment Danbo has made in the above and now look at the public statement Ritter has made about the Grip. There is a huge divergence of opinion on what is abuse for a folder, far too many people are simply not considering that better locks are available.

Danbo apparently thinks it is fine for a knife built like the Sebenza to collapse if even light pressure is exerted on the spine, if that is the case I find it impossible you can argue that the design is consistent. What is the sense of having a lock with that strength with that level of security.

Now again, I am not saying all Sebenza's will unlock so easily, I am just asking you to think about that perspective on some of the testing done and what it means in regards to the overall design of the knife, specifically in relationship to scope of work and optimal design.

Even the makers who use Integrals like Reeve will qualify them against uses which are trivial to do with lockbacks, how can you argue for the lock for such uses when the maker won't support it. I asked Reeve directly in email about batoning the Sebenza and he simply would not address it.

-Clif

 

[rebeltf]

Incidently , I hope I'm not bumming anyone out by my statements , the Ritter Grip looks like one heck of a knife !
I'm just a walking skeptic I guess , maybe I should have born in the "Show Me" State.

 

[knifetester]

Yes, as Joe indicates, framelocks are a different class of lock, depsite being similiar in appearance to liner locks. There is more contact between the lock face and the tang, the lock is usually much thicker, and the finger reinforces the lock in use.

Being 'testers' you have to stick with the facts more than hearsay. So the third party testimony is hard to really call a hard core fact IMO.

Actually I am not a knife tester. The name is a joke, an inside one. I am a knife user. I think the only valid "tests" are those done under extremely controlled conditions, such as those done by Spyderco and Fallkniven.

The reviews I write (not published here) are simply user impressions, observations and conclusions based on my needs, They are entirely subjective. They are based on small sample sizes (usually one knife) and are not really reflective of how all knives of that type may perform. They reflect my opinion and observations based on my use. Same as any other user/ reviewer.

As well, hearsay can be very probative, it really depends on the credibilty of the original declarant. For example, if Joe Talmadge tells me a knife cuts well, that says something becasue I have a an inkling of what "well" means, based on comments he has made about other knives that we hae both used.

If Jim Aston says an axe chops well, has good balance and is well made, that tells me something, since I know how Jim uses his tools and what kind of performance he expects.

If Nick Wheeler says he can not bend a knife, I know that King Kong strength is needed to bend it.

So, if FrankK tells me Joe says a knife cuts well, and he agrees, it is meaningful. You ahve to have a framework to evaluate the credibility of the declarant. Just ask "Gramps" about my credibility for example

The forums are a community, they represent a pool of knowledge, You just have to know how to use it.

If you read several reviews by a writer,and use the same knives and come to the same conclusions, it is likely that you will find jhim very credible in the furture. If people cite that autheor as a soucre, it is a very probative piece of information.

 

[knifetester]

Incidently , I hope I'm not bumming anyone out by my statements , the Ritter Grip looks like one heck of a knife !
I'm just a walking skeptic I guess , maybe I should have born in the "Show Me" State.

See the Tactical Knives article by Dr. Trier. He is a HiGHLY credible source. He used the Ritter for shelter construction.

For whatever it is worth, the weak point on a folder in regards to batoning is likely the pin, not the lock.

I would be happy to baton a bit with the framelocks and an Axis lock, hwoever it will take me a week or so before I have the free time.

As well, look at the over all design of the knife, not jsut the lock. I would readily choose the BM 630 Skirmish for baton work over my Axis lock 705 M2 BM forum knife.

 

[Larry S.]

Accusations may be made that I'm a "Strider Kool-Aid" drinker but until my PT's lock (or any of the framelocks I possess) fails, OR until Mick Strider posts a recall for SMF's, SNG's, or PT's due to dangerous lock releases / failures, I shall continue to put my faith in their designs and products.....end rant.
You guys can twist all night til ya' drop!

 

[STR]

Many makers are so concerned with ease of use and making the locks easy to close and operate that I think they have compromised the security of the lock mechanism for a liner lock in particular. This is probably the biggest reason for failures and the surge of liner lock scoffs over anything else. IMO.

To address the original question on frame locks. Yeah they can be tough and strong enough for 'hard use' I guess. But truthfully liner locks could be too if they were all made like they started out being made.

Perhaps the detent ball itself is responsible for some of this liner lock scare that has gone around the internet and the knife community. In the early years of liner locks there was no need for a detent ball because the sideways force of the lock was sufficient to defy gravity in most all of them. Once the detent started being used the locks became weaker as a direct result because they no longer had to have all that lateral force. Used to be that a certain amount of resistance was to be expcted in a liner lock. Some of my old ones were so short, wide and so strong they actually pushed the blade off center when it was closed.

The detent allowed makers to increase the length of the lock and make it easier to move and operate and it also allowed the blade to be centered nicely when it was closed but did that all come at a cost maybe?

To me there is a happy medium that can be attained where the liner lock is strong wide and sufficiently thick but not cut real long. I make my own of .050 thick stainless and they are pretty short and wide and seem to be just fine for all around strength and I'm just a back yard mechanic that likes to make an occassional knife as a hobby. The thumbnails below are what I'm talking about.

Now don't be overly critical to my work. I make users not pocket jewelry but look at the locks. Short wide and thick enough to be very strong and made of stainless steel. I also pin my blade stop which I feel adds even more strength to the lock. One of these is my WhittleJack posted in my Sig.

Personally I wish there were some guys making short wide strong locks out there but all I ever see anymore are long skinny narrow ones which is really why I started making my own to begin with. No wonder we have so many horror stories on liner locks floating all about.

Take a look at the typical liner lock being made today commercially in the far right thumbnail. Now I ask you. Which lock do you think is going to be stronger? The short wide thicker one or the long narrow thin one?

 

[knifetester]

STR,

It is interesting to have a knife,aker's perspective here.

How do your short, wide liner locks compare to an inexpensive framelock in regards to lock strength and security?

Under what stresses will your liner locks fail?

Are they built and fitted to withstand torque stresses and spine whacks? If so, to what degree?

I make users not pocket jewelry but look at the locks. Short wide and thick enough to be very strong and made of stainless steel. I also pin my blade stop which I feel adds even more strength to the lock. One of these is my WhittleJack posted in my Sig.

What is the scope of work of your Whittlejack folder, is it less or more than a Kershaw Leek? How do they compare in terms of cutting efficiency?

What is the hardest work you will warrant your folders to endure without failure?

What work is outside its scope, and therefore abusive?
Is it more or less than a $30 Kershaw? A Benchmade 635? A 710HS?

Do your knives open smoothly? Are they easy and safe to shut without looking?

 

[STR]

I make them for myself primarily, family or close friends. Most have been given away as gifts. As I said above I am a "hobbyist" first and foremost. I have sold several though and in fact have some scattered to all parts of the US and the world. Most all of them were made by me for me though and I just sold it to someone. Most of the time to get my wife off my back because of some other knife purchase I made that she is bit$%ing about. Then once it is gone I make another one and carry that one for a while until the next time she starts on me. This cycle has repeated itself for 24 years roughly.

It all started when I saw something in the liner locks being made that didn't sit well with me, which I've already discussed so I fixed it to my own satisfaction. I've tested one recently that was made with a titanium lock. Even being short wide and fat at a .067 thickness the lock loosened up after four good spine whacks on a table top. It never failed but it did indent from the blade pushing into the lock.

That doesn't mean I'd say you can buy one and expect it to withstand spine whacks though although this one did do just that. It was loose afterwards but that was what I wanted to know.

I've only had to replace titanium locks that I've made regarding liner locks. I have yet to have a stainless one come back to me that was loose. I've had them come back for sharpening but they still locked up great when I do see them. I have Paul Bos heat treat those for me btw.

As for opening and closing. They work great. I don't use teflon or phosphorus bronze washers that much on the WhittleJack folder unless asked to. Being stainless against steel it works in to a nice old fashioned break in routine that becomes better with age. I do routinely use teflon or PB washers on the titanium lined ones because ti has a 'tackyness' where it kind of sticks against a different metal which is one of the benefits of it for a liner lock but the indenting problem is something I'm still working on.

Chuck Bybee advised me to heat the face of the lock up until red hot and then let it cool. I had been doing that anyway but the difference is Chuck said do it three times. Next one I do I am going to try that and see if it does make a difference in the wear and indent problem. Many makers I know don't do this on theirs though. They just anodize them after cleaning them up good.

I've never compared my liner lock to a frame lock. I have also not had one fail from whacking the daylights out of it. Even on the ones that bent they didn't fail to keep the blade from coming back. The worst that has happened on any of the short fat wide ones is they get slightly loose.

Torque stresses are something I will probably do in the future but I think since I started making them with a screw down blade stop they will do better than one that has a stop pin just sitting free in the two liners with nothing other than the pivot pin tension to hold it in there. It only makes sense when you think about it that having that extra screw up there in conjunction with the pivot pin can only help..

I started making the WhittleJack for just what it says in the name I gave it. I carve and whittle a lot. The blades are high carbon 1095 and they keep a good edge and simply work well with that Wharncliff blade shape. They are thin blades also at 3/32" thick.

Warrant my work? I'm a hobbyist. If you bought one of my knives I'd say use the knife like you would any other knife you carry. If you mess it up and I know you messed it up you pay to fix it right. If it was my fault I eat it. No different than anyone else. I expect most people know when they have crossed the line into the area of abuse. Common sense and the honor system are my old fashioned way.

I open and close them with no problem. I can tell you my knife is easier to close than my Leek is. Mostly because there is more surface area there to get your thumb on the lock to close it. My thumb misses the lock bar 90% of the time when I carry my Leek and this causes me to have to look down to close it.

My locks obviously are harder to push than a conventional production folder and most handmades out there. I call them " a mans knife". I have not had any issues with white knuckling accidental closings on my WhittleJack. But they are certainly still one hand operated folders with little to worry about in that area IMO.

My personal philoshphy is that a folder is meant to be opened when you need to use it. So what if it is slightly harder to close when you are done with it. Unless you are sitting around all day flipping it opened and closed I doubt you would have any issues with my liner locking knives wearing out your thumb.

Does that mean a Knifetester or Cliff Stamp would be able to get one and be impressed? Not at all. I don't doubt for a minute that either of you would make every effort to defeat it.

I make no claims to be better at making a folder than a professional or a manufacturer. In fact I know that I run the middle of the road. I only think the idea I presented in my last post of a shorter wider thicker lock should be looked at by others more capable and with milling machines. (which I don't have)

I mean if the issue is that liner locks are whimpy easily defeated locks this seems like the best way to at least improve on that record. From my stand point they can be stronger and even close to the same strength as a frame lock if they are made this way. It is just a huntch though because at this point I cannot prove that statement.

 

[Vorpal Blade]

The following is all from my own experience of many years using liner and framelocks. The first one I ever remember was as a young child. I was not aware of who the manufacturer was but it had two blades, both opening in the same direction; one a sheepsfoot and one a spearpoint. Both blades depended on long, thin, brass spring liners which had long since overtravelled and then some. Both blades still locked shakily open with lots of up and down play.

Some version of the same problem exists in any of the liner or framelocks which I have used long and hard since then; Regardless of spring width; whether titanium or stainless steel; repeated use causes them to loosen up over time. The width of a blade offers too little clearence for a spring to reach a stopping point before passing the other side of the blade and reaching the opposite handle slab. If the angle grind where the spring meets the blade is too steep, lockup is easily defeated. If the angle is too shallow, the spring overtravels in too short a time. Repeated opening causes overtravel and pressing hard while cutting speeds the deterioration. This has happened with both manufactured and custom knives I have owned.


As for liner/framelock failure: Several times, over the years, with different liner locks, I had occasion to drill holes with the point and rotated counterclockwise, thus, releasing the lock. I rarely drill holes with my knives and, by chance, have never tried it with an integral framelock. If I drilled holes more frequently, I know I would quickly get used to rotating in the right direction.
But almost all folders with manual lock releases can be accidently defeated in use.

The only type of folder immune to lock failure is the balisong. Short of mechanical breakage, it cannot accidently close on you, IMO. Personally, I would like to see some makers/manufacturers experiment with the balisong in utility designs. All of the balisongs I have seen so far, have narrow blades, specialized for combat.

 

[5Ronins]

My first folder was a cheap liner lock, it wore and eventualy the liner wasn't worth a damn. I definetly got my $15 out of it though and I learned about good knives (choosing Benchmade over Jaguar for instance)


Alot of the bad vibe for liners comes from cheapies like those just like the cheap hollow handle knives made a bad vibe.

 

[SIFU1A]

i agree with knifetester, i have never had probs with framelocks (nor liner locks either actually)

its a subjective question and a lot of folks will have diff opinions, doesnt mean anyone is right or wrong.

i always go with my experience with something vs folks who are "experts"

 

[knifetester]

Thanks for all the great replys guys, lots of good information here.

I guess I have one additional question, what is the hardest you have usd your framelock folder without failure?

Me:

I think the only valid "tests" are those done under extremely controlled conditions, such as those done by Spyderco and Fallkniven.

I think I should clarify that. By valid, I mean that the test performed in professional labs for purpose of research and development have a high degree of statistical signifaicance, the testers can have a high degree of confidence that there results are an accurate representation of the knife, since they have used multiple samples and have isolated the variables by usng highly controlled testing procedures.

On the other hand, as OwenM has argued, such tests are not necessarily applicable to how people use knives, since they ignore the human factor. I think that is very true. In contrast are user reviews may not be able to declare that there results are generally applicable, but they are very relevant as to that particular knife in those hands. even those reviews which quantify results are in a sense subjective, since the results are highly dependant on the person using the knife and their technique and the compoun effect of many minor variations usch as consistency of stock material, etc.

As well, some of the rigors of formal testing are really not needed when testing a knife. Whether the temp is 64 or 84, whether the humidity is 10% or 40%, the barametric pressure, all these things may be tightly controlled in aformal test, but are pretty meaningless to a knife performance in a user review.

To me a knife review is pretty simple, use the knife, report back with your observations. Maybe take a few pictures along the way. If my observations are grossly out of line with the promotional claims of the maker, I try to figure out why.



STR,

Thanks for the informative post. It provides some helpful insight.

Does that mean a Knifetester or Cliff Stamp would be able to get one and be impressed? Not at all. I don't doubt for a minute that either of you would make every effort to defeat it.

Cliff can speak for himself, but I have never thought about using a knife as an attempt to "defeat it." It is not like I am out to conquer a foe or vanquish a wrongdoer. I am simply interested in exploring knife performance.

Actually, I just received one of your Whittlejack folders for evaluation. I arranged to have it loaned to me. My interest isbased on the statements you have made about knife perforamnce on the forums. I figured if I used one of your knives a bit, I could get a better handle on where you are coming from.

Sorry, no pictures of this one right now. My camera takes a special lithium ion battery, and though I have three batteries they are all dead, I used the last one up shooting the pics in the post above. I can not find my charger, so until I get that replaced I am out of the picture business.

Chuck Bybee advised me to heat the face of the lock up until red hot and then let it cool. I had been doing that anyway but the difference is Chuck said do it three times. Next one I do I am going to try that and see if it does make a difference in the wear and indent problem. Many makers I know don't do this on theirs though. They just anodize them after cleaning them up good.

If anone know Titanium, it is the Titanium man Chuck Bybee. I think his advise was very good and perfectly logical. I think you are right in that many makers do not heat treat the face of the lock, probably based on the time and expense involved, i..e basic production reasons. I am pretty sure CRK heat treats the Sebbie lock face though. I could be wrong, that happens often enough. . . .

. I only think the idea I presented in my last post of a shorter wider thicker lock should be looked at by others more capable and with milling machines. (which I don't have)

I mean if the issue is that liner locks are whimpy easily defeated locks this seems like the best way to at least improve on that record. From my stand point they can be stronger and even close to the same strength as a frame lock if they are made this way. It is just a huntch though because at this point I cannot prove that statement.

Have you presented your ideas to any other makers or to knife companies?

 

[STR]

Have you presented your ideas to any other makers or to knife companies?

I have brushed it by a few people to no avail.

My knives are primitive by the looks of some of the ones being made by other makers but I keep plugging along regardless. My liner locks are each unique and different and even the ones of the same pattern are not a clone of the last one because each one is done by hand and has it's own fingerprint so to speak.
They do all have one thing in common though when it comes to the liner lock. They are cut shorter, wider, and of a thicker hardened steel with a screwed down blade stop for added strength. Actually I make the spacer bar and the blade stop all one piece because I feel that is a stronger overall way to make it. Each lock requires just a bit more umph to close it than is usually associated with a liner lock but that goes with the territory of a short wider lock. Some are easier than others. It will be interesting to see which WhittleJack you test.



Steve

 

[knifetester]

It will be interesting to see which WhittleJack you test.

It is none of those, it looks identical to the one in your sig line, perhaps the wood is a tad darker, I can't remember for sure and I don't have it in front of me since I am at work.

 

[STR]

You must be in NY. I only made two with that wood. It sounds like you have C.E.s knife. Made specifically for him at the request of D.C. for an x-mas gift as I recall. That one was one that I actually did make from scratch for someone else and not for myself. One of those I wish I had spent a bit more time on actually but feeling pressed for time because of the holiday coming up and the short notice I was given to make it I shipped it out.

Lignum vitae handle scales on that one.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Yes, as Joe indicates, framelocks are a different class of lock, depsite being similiar in appearance to liner locks. There is more contact between the lock face and the tang, the lock is usually much thicker, and the finger reinforces the lock in use.

There are liners with really thick bars so the first two are not standards, and rigidity of the lock bar while it obviously can't hurt, isn't really necessary. A few years back Joe described seeing a very light made gents folder at a custom show with extremely stable liner locks even though the lock bar was very slim. There is finger reinforcement in some grips, and the opposite in others. I don't see it as a significant advantage. It also has ergonomic drawbacks.

...the testers can have a high degree of confidence that there results are an accurate representation of the knife, since they have used multiple samples

How often do you see performance bounds or any measure of variance. Ask them specifically what is their precision tolerance on their performance testing.

Small sample testing from a user point of view is problematic, is this really how the knife can be expected to behave? Not just because of steel or heat treatment but consistency, grind variation for example. This is why I try to give as much detail as I can about the knife.

Many times I have seen problems reported with durability due to just a thinner than average grind and not the steel. My small Sebenza for example would get mangled much more so than most would expect as the edge thickness is half the spec'ed one from Reeve.

This is why when I finish a review I show it to the maker/manufacturer so they can comment and address if it does represent accurate performance, such reviews should be used more as basis to question the maker rather than define the performance, which is what people constantly miss.

I have never thought about using a knife as an attempt to "defeat it."

I get asked to, so I do it from time to time. I also do it intentionally (or at least knowing it is likely possible) on occasion as I try to determine the scope of work and find that it is exceeded.

-Cliff

 

[knifetester]

Small sample testing from a user point of view is problematic, is this really how the knife can be expected to behave? Not just because of steel or heat treatment but consistency, grind variation for example.

Yes, it is problematic, however getting the multiple samples needed would be terribly prohibitive from an economic standpoint for people that do this as a hoby. Imagine having to buy 10 different Sebenzas.
I used to think knives did not vary too much in execution. However a quick trip to walmarts will prove that to be false. Examine 20 of the same knife, and you can see visible differences in knives. No these are lower end knives, but you still see differences in higher end knives. As you point out your Sebenza is ground twice as thin as spec's. Now imagine someone who has their knife ground overly thick (the other end of the spectrum) and try to reconcile why one thinks the knife is a light use precision cutter, and another thinks the knife is built like a tank. And this is from the company with the highest quality control and precision in the industry (or at least the awards say so.) With hand made knives, customs, the varience is much bigger, and is in fact often a selling point, ie.e unique, individual knives.

A few years back Joe described seeing a very light made gents folder at a custom show with extremely stable liner locks even though the lock bar was very slim.

Yes, the Spyderco Military has a fairly thin lock bar compared to a decent framelock, yet I would think it has a very strong lock. I owned 2 and never saw a failure.

 

[stjames]

Small sample testing from a user point of view is problematic, is this really how the knife can be expected to behave?

-Cliff

Good point, I suppose the failure of your Kershaw could be considered a small sample.

From Cliff Stamps Small Sebenza Review - The lockup was stable under light to moderate spine whacks which readily dented clear pine. White knuckling was not a problem outside of grips which ran the handle straigt across the second joint of the index finger which would allow the lock to be released readily in a tight grip.

Was this under torque?

 

[STR]

I have a question on the Leek you tested. Obviously it performed admirably in your tests. How is the lock up on it now compared to the before you tweaked on it?

On my Leek, that came from Wal-Mart I was quite happy to have the opportunity to look over several to choose the best one. Some of the locks didn't engage enough of the blade to suit my tastes. Even the one I bought was less than I had hoped but better than the others.

For example, my Leek lock is about 7/8 on the back of the blade and that is all the farther it goes in. Some of the ones I refused seemed to be about 1/2 way.

I am curious as to how yours was before the test, and how it is now. Is the lock engaging better now since tweaking on it some, or is it unchanged?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...getting the multiple samples needed would be terribly prohibitive from an economic standpoint for people that do this as a hobby.

You even have worse problems, essentially if you wanted to do it right you would have to do random lot small sample tests on each run and thus measure lot variance as well. To make a concrete performance statement with meaningful bounds in this manner is only really available to the guys making the knives.

What a reviewer should look to offer is not this information because you simply can't give it even if you had the money it is difficult to do it well and have confidence in your results. What you can provide is a solid reference point for the consumer to allow him to ask meaningful questions to the maker/manufacturer and thus optimally produce definate performance statements.

As noted I think the reviewer should do this as well and give the maker/manufactuer the ability to respond where the readers can see their opinions, ideally in a forum where the writer does not have editorial abilities so the maker/manufacturer is free to respond in confidence.

I suppose the failure of your Kershaw could be considered a small sample.

Yes, but of course this isn't the entire basis for the arguement. Torque failures of integrals have been reported on the forum and I have see them on the Maxx as well and they behave in the exact same manner as the liner which I have seen torque fail on several occasions.

Makers have also noted this is the expected behavior, for example when I broke the lock on the Buck/Strider under torque Mick stated the lock is expected to behave this way, thus you don't need a large sample to independently confirm the limitation of the lock because the maker is open that it is an inherent issue in the design.

Was this under torque?

No, just grip pressure. I can't torque test the small Sebenza because the grind was only half of spec so if I twisted the blade while it was stuck in a stiff media like wood the blade would just likely crack and induce primary grind failure. Similar if I was to try and do some batoning like Ritter promoted with the Grip recently, the edge would shatter on the first knot.

-Cliff