Is the Framelock a suitable design for a hard-use folder???

[stjames]

No, just grip pressure. I can't torque test the small Sebenza because the grind was only half of spec so if I twisted the blade while it was stuck in a stiff media like wood the blade would just likely crack and induce primary grind failure. Similar if I was to try and do some batoning like Ritter promoted with the Grip recently, the edge would shatter on the first knot.

-Cliff

I'm suprised you didn't try it before you were informed it was so much thinner than spec as this seems to be an important sticking point with you. You did hold back on fashioning it into a bill hook but that was based on general perceptions of the steel and grind and not concern over the knife being out of spec.

At least it didn't fail when used as a paring knife digging out eyes of potatoes, so the lock and blade can handle that much stress (not saying much ).

 

[Josh Muller]

for what its worth i break ice at work at least every tuesday when our freezer shipment comes in (i work at a pizza place as a cook). i use the back of my knife to break the ice because were i to use the hammer (many have before and done serious amounts of damage to the sheat metal) i would risk not only damaging the sheet metal, but also possibly the freezer mechanisms.

i dont use a folder because i carry 2 fixed blades, one being very heavy, long, and 1/4" thick with a 3/4 saber grind. if i didnt carry the fixed blades, id use a folder.


also at my other job (a light fixture shop specializing in blacksmithed work), there are a great deal of occasions where the powder coaters will not put a lock washer underneath a half ball or any other small peice that is attached to sheet metal to be coated - and it gets sealed to the sheet metal. if there isnt a screwdriver handy, i'll hit it with the back of my knife, or pry it off with the knife tip (of course being careful). again, because i carry so many knives, i have one specifically for this - the serrated knife on my leatherman. were i to have only one folder, i would use it for this task.



when you are cutting heavy plastics, thick water tanks and things like that, the binding can get really intense, and extracting your knife can actually require a good deal of your body weight - its under circumstances like that (a very realistic one) that you get large torqueing and backward force on the knife. my stepdad uses his s&w folder to cut fiberglass sheats, pvc pipe, rubber hoses, lexan, and plastic sheats at his work on a regular basis. (often with the same situation causeing torques and backward pressure)

you could say "why would you use a folder to cut a water tank?" - but seriously. what are you going to use?, a box cutter wont get through 1/8" plastic very easily if at all, and not everyone carries fixed blades.


there are a lot of ways a knife can be used in real world situations that are not out of the ordinary that cause the blade to be pushed backwards with heavy shock, and with heavy pressure.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

I have only owned two framelock knives, but have never had a lock fail. One was put to some pretty hard work.

 

[knifetester]

I have a question on the Leek you tested. Obviously it performed admirably in your tests. How is the lock up on it now compared to the before you tweaked on it?
[snip]
I am curious as to how yours was before the test, and how it is now. Is the lock engaging better now since tweaking on it some, or is it unchanged?

The Leek was slightly effected overall. The clip was a bit loose after really twisting on the handle, probably from where my palm was pushing on it. Also, I thought I might have damaged one of the little screws holding the knife together, since the rear of the knife felt just a tad looser than before the test.

I backed out all the T6 screws o the knife, then tightened them down really well. The knife is now back to where it was when it started.

The lock is unchanged. From a regular safe action assisted opening it engages about 3/4 of the way. If I squeeze really hard I can shift the lock bar over almost completely.

It did not jam open as I have seen some Ti framelocks do.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I'm suprised you didn't try it before you were informed it was so much thinner than spec ...

I measure profiles first thing and as soon as I spec'ed the edge I knew a lot of use was out because it would induce primary grind failure. I also knew the blade grind had to be way off which is why I immediately made a post on Bladeforums about the grind and sent off an email to Reeve asking for the edge spec's.

If I squeeze really hard I can shift the lock bar over almost completely.

It did not jam open as I have seen some Ti framelocks do.

This is another of the weak points of the lock compared to a liner, especially if it is sticking, consider the wear this places on the mating surfaces when you grate the two forcefully together.

...there are a lot of ways a knife can be used in real world situations that are not out of the ordinary that cause the blade to be pushed backwards with heavy shock, and with heavy pressure.

Most of the argument would never exist if instead of "high speed" promotion of such knives, R&D was done by tradesmen. Nice that you can use the fixed blade at work, many places would not be as open minded.


-Cliff

 

[STR]

Nice that you can use the fixed blade at work, many places would not be as open minded.

Not to derail this extra fine thread but that comment above brings so many things immediately to mind.

Just off the top of my head.

When I was a lad folks carried a fixed blade and no one was bothered by it or intimidated by the man carrying it. It was no big deal. I remember my dad using his own personal carry fixed blade as his steak knife when we went out to eat. No one ever said a thing about it. I don't think it was thought much of at all. It may have even been common place.

A man or woman could spank their child and/or dicipline them in a parking lot or in a grocery store many times to the thanks of their neighbors for taking care of the little SRB instead of to the shock and awe of their neighbors and being arrested and having to explain themselves to a judge.

My dad picked me up from school in his pickup truck where a shotgun and rifle were clearly visible hanging in the rear window.

During the first three days of deer season our school was closed, mainly because no one was there including the teachers. (West Virginia.)

I carried a pocket knife all through grammer school and high school and college and teachers that didn't carry themselves and knew that I had a knife at times asked to borrow it from me. This was all above board without hassle or worry by anyone.

When I did my first frog disection in biology class I used my pocket knife that I used for field dressing small game not the POS dull junker that 500 kids before me used. I'd still be trying to cut with that one. LOL.

Boy have times changed.

 

[mndart]

Thanks for putting you knives through this abuse to inform us. What a great post.

 

[knifetester]

Thanks for putting you knives through this abuse to inform us. What a great post.

Thank you for the kind words. To be honest though, I do not consider any of the work I did abusive. If a locking folder of any sort could not pass these tests, I would not carry it. Not because I need a strong lock (since I usually use slip joints) but rather because it would denote a poor design or execution.

The Leek loosened up a bit, but it is a fairly light use knife by design and is inexpensive as well.

I torqued the 65 much harder and it was not phased in the least.

Cliff, Re: Locking jamming open:

This is another of the weak points of the lock compared to a liner, especially if it is sticking, consider the wear this places on the mating surfaces when you grate the two forcefully together.

On several occasions I squeezed my Sebenza so hard that the lock was jammed to the point I had to use the crewdriver on my Swisstool to pry the lock bar so the knife would close. Never made a differnce. If it had, I could have adjusted the bushing to account for the wear. Once the bushing had reached its limit (which would have been tons of work) I would have sent it back to CRK to have a new lock plate scale fitted. Getting that much work out of a knife would easily be worth he 100 bucks to have it refitted.

STR

Boy have times changed.[/quote}

Yes they have.

Seth, Re: ice breaker

A kitchen steel works well for this too.

 

[Blackhearted]

ive used slipjoints for years and never had one close on my fingers hard enough to cut me. why? because i wasnt abusing them.
i can think of only one situation where a framelock/linerlock's lock can fail AND it close on your fingers, and that is when stabbing. if you are stabbing with ANY folder the situation is probably dire enough to outweigh any possible lock failure.
i fail to see how, when 'cutting weeds', you can make the lock fail and the blade close on your fingers. wtf? is he trying to cut them with the spine of the blade??? if you are cutting with the edge of the blade there is no way the knife can close on your fingers.

i think the problem these days isnt locks being 'too weak', its people expecting too damn much from them. want to pry apart cured oak? get a #%@$ing fixed blade or a hatchet.

too many people are buying into the marketing where people stab their folders through car doors and oil drums and they think that folders are made for these things. now im sure ill have someone disagree and say that theyve done all sortsof crazy things with theiir folder - great, so have i. ive also done a lot of crazy things with my volkswagen, but i am neither naive enough to think that thats what they were designed for nor misguided enough to blame someone else if they fail while im abusing them.
a folder is a knife made for cutting. a lock is a safety device to prevent the blade closing on the fingers during everday tasks where slipjoints could possibly snap closed. it doesnt turn a knife into a fixed blade, hatchet or crowbar.
as for fancier locks - if you are abusing your knife every knife will fail eventually, i dont care how fancy the locking system is. it might not fail outright and dramatically,but if you are chopping hardwood, prying, stabbing hard materials, etc with your folder in the least you are wearing out the lock/loosening up the knife and compromising its integrity.

 

[STR]

It could be that people have lost sight of the fact that the lock was a simple safety device that was supposed 'help prevent' accidental closures of the blade. It was never sold as fool proof.

Perhaps Cliff is right in his assertion that the advent of newer stronger better locks has moved up the bar or the standard but in the end folders are still a compromise to the security of a fixed blade: always have been always will.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

if you are cutting with the edge of the blade there is no way the knife can close on your fingers.

Read Seth's post.

As for expectations on locks, there are many that are strong and secure enough to increase the scope of work of a knife beyond that of which a slipjoint can perform.

In regards to simply being precision cutting tools, there are folding knives with 1/4" blades with sabre grinds. These are made to be used for prying, chopping, stabbing and general very heavy use.

On several occasions I squeezed my Sebenza so hard that the lock was jammed to the point I had to use the crewdriver on my Swisstool to pry the lock bar so the knife would close.

I can do that trivially, it is one of the reasons I don't consider it as a serious one handed knife outside of light work, it is harder to open and close fluidly than a Buck 110 if I use it for serious cutting.

Never made a differnce.

A few times no I would not think so, however my brother would jam it many times every single day if he carried it as his primary work knife. The lock would see hundreds of hard grating contacts each month.

He has carried two FRN Spyderco's for longer than that and both of them engage with no play. The use is significant, the serrated one has several points rounded from wear and others deformed from the heavy forces applied.

Is there a brief blurb on the internet on how to adjust the Sebenza once the mating surfaces have worn to the point that the lock bar fully engages and goes all the way over due to wear?

I might just simulate this to see how long it takes for slop to set in and how it can be fixed. I can't just test it directly because he won't actually carry the knife as the first time it jammed solid was the first and last time he carried it. Plus it also can't be used for really hard cutting anyway due to the grind variance.

-Cliff

 

[Blackhearted]

Is there a brief blurb on the internet on how to adjust the Sebenza once the mating surfaces have worn to the point that the lock bar fully engages and goes all the way over due to wear?

is there anything you can do on a linerlock/framelock when the liner goes all the way over?
this is why i refuse to buy a linerlock (or framelock) on which the liner engages on the tang more than 1/3 of the way over. in fact i am just returning a brand new CRKT M21-04 because it engages 3/4 of the way over when opened gently with two hands and fully over when flipped open using the carson flipper. this leaves absolutely no room for wear whatsoever, and on a brand new knife its unacceptable.
but, if i were unable to return the knife, would there be anything i could do short of fabricating a new liner using the old one as a guide?

cheers,
-gabriel

 

[knifetester]

Cliff,

If your Sebenza is so over ground (1/2 of spec), why don't you return it to CRK for a blade exchange? Perosnally, I would prefer the thinner grind. Buyt if the thicker grind would be bette for you, you could have a second blade fitted.

You could even ask to keep the old blade, and swap them out for different tasks.

Also, why did you go for the new S30V Sebenza? Why not pick up a used BG42, get a better knife (in my opinion) for a lower price. I'll take BG42 at 61Rc over S30V at 58 Rc anyday for a folder, especially one with a nice hollow grind.

Re: Your brother's use of knives

Then perhaps the Sebenza is not a good choice for him. That does not mean it is not a good choice for other people, even those that use thier tools just as hard but with more finesse.

 

[STR]

is there anything you can do on a linerlock/framelock when the liner goes all the way over?

I assume you mean when the lock goes all the way over.

Here is what I did to a Dozier Thorn with this problem. I drilled and threaded and then counter sunk a set screw. This screw sticks out the exact same height as the washers thickness. When the pivot pin is tight as it should be so there is no blade play laterally, this pin keeps the lock from going all the way across the back of the blade and creates a physical stop for it which in effect keeps the lock on the blade instead of allowing it to slide off and sit somewhere in the space between the body and the blade. It is thick enough that even when it slid all the way across it did't fit into the space but it bothered me so I fixed it.

If you look to the left in the blow up close up of the lock you can see the shiny silver head of the screw and just make out the part of the screw sticking out to stop the lock.

 

[Blackhearted]

Here is what I did to a Dozier Thorn with this problem. I drilled and threaded and then counter sunk a set screw. This screw sticks out the exact same height as the washers thickness. When the pivot pin is tight as it should be so there is no blade play laterally, this pin keeps the lock from going all the way across the back of the blade and creates a physical stop for it which in effect keeps the lock on the blade instead of allowing it to slide off and sit somewhere in the space between the body and the blade.

thats a pretty slick idea. although if the liner keeps wearing itll have some minimal blade play, but at least on a hard stab/impact the liner wont wedge inbetween the blade/frame and ruin the knife.

i seem to notice varying levels of liner wear, where many quality knives with proportionately thin liners wear very slowly but others with liners often twice as thick wear almost visibly. i think this may be from manufacturers not heat-treating their liners.
i wonder if it would be viable to heat treat the liners of less expensive knives you purchase. they are thin so it wouldnt be a long process, and you could quench just the tip of the liner where it slides against the tang.
sure this might wear the blade a bit more, but most linerlocks these days dont have replacement parts like liners - so it doesnt matter which part wears out, you want to reduce wear over the entire knife as a whole since its all one unit.

 

[STR]

It has to do with the hardness of the two surfaces where they meet. When one is 60Rc and the other is 39Rc the softer of the two is going to take a beating.

When I was in Peru I had a guide who had a folder and it was a liner lock that had a bronze liner and lock on it. I could tell it wasn't brass because it was harder. He said he carried it for 20 years and I could tell he used the daylights out of it and that thing still locked up solid as can be imagined. I tried to buy it from him twice before leaving. He would't part with it. Turned out it was a gift so he couldn't get rid of it even though he needed the money. I paid him anyway and told him it was worth it to just see it.

I have looked for sheets of bronze for years to try one just to see how it really did heat up and how hard it could be made but no one carries it.

He told me that he knew they heated it up to like red hot several times and let it cool on its own to make it harder.

That is what Chuck told me to do with titanium. Heat up the face of the lock to red hot let it cool x 3.

On the stainless I send that to Paul Bos and tell him where I want it on the Rc scale and he puts it there.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

... this pin keeps the lock from going all the way across the back of the blade and creates a physical stop

I can see this preventing the lock bar from traveling, but since it wants to, isn't the mating between it and the blade less than optimal?

If your Sebenza is so over ground (1/2 of spec), why don't you return it to CRK for a blade exchange?

This one suits me better than the spec'ed grind, I would even have it thinner if possible. The U2 that Krein reground has a deeper grind. I usually EDC it along with the Fulcrum and something of similar class to the Paramilitary.

...why did you go for the new S30V Sebenza?

Because I was curious about the steel, specifically I intend to compare Reeve's heat treatment to Wilson's.

And yes of course different people have different desires, there is nothing inherently special about the demands Patrick places on the knife in construction work, he in fact uses more care than most because of his experience with past knives.

If I gave any other member of the crew the knife, told him this was promoted as a "hard use working knife" it would get mangled before the day was out, it is simply a cross section issue, even if it was as spec'ed this would be the case.

Plus the first time it jammed solid and had to be pryed apart its life would be likely to get really uncomfortable very fast. Their perspective of course is very different than someone who sees it with a $325 price tag.

But in general I would find it hard to argue that heavy grip pressure is rare on knives used for heavy cutting, it isn't like the work that Seth described in the above can be done with a really light grip, nor is it something that I would bet on doing with a thin edge hollow ground knife.

It is for reasons like this I don't call it a hard use design, other people are free to draw the line anywhere they want, just be clear what you mean with exaples of work done and there is no real issue of contention.

-Cliff

 

[knifetester]

Because I was curious about the steel, specifically I intend to compare Reeve's heat treatment to Wilson's.

With the steel being that thin, isn't it very prone to warping if you re-heat treat it.


Re lock jams

Yeah, you can jam the lock open just squeezing it, but those jams are the kind were you can usually unjam them with a good push or a light wiggle with a screw driver. I had to squeeze real hard to jam them to the point I had to pry the lock to shut it. Of course, what "real hard" means is very dependnet on grip strength. I am not a master of crush contender by any means.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

With the steel being that thin, isn't it very prone to warping if you re-heat treat it.

Probably, I will mostly like compare it to a similar edged Spyderco, which I may get Krein to regrind after hardening.

Of course, what "real hard" means is very dependnet on grip strength.

Yeah, I don't think it is that demanding though grip wise. I should just apply force to it and see how much it takes to jam it.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

Cliff you would think that because it only makes sense. The lock actually has very little give to it though. Even when it would slide off the blade it still had a pretty secure feeling to it.

Of course this knife is one of the 'tab lock' folders where the lock is also the stop pin or blade stop or whatever name it goes by. Looks like a .050 piece of 5160 steel which I'm sure is strong but I'd feel better about it if it were thicker, especially since it is also the blade stop.

I got so concerned for the strength of this lock after carrying it and using it hard for a couple of years that on my other Thorn (silver one) I put a physical blade stop right behind the tab lock so it reinforces both the blade stop and the lock up. It really tightened it up good and the lock does not give at all now. In fact I wrote Ka-Bar and told them it was my opinion that this lock should be made of thicker steel or they need to put a stop on it like I did. I never heard back from them on it.

This is the second silver model that I have owned now: as the first one was sent back to Ka-Bar for warranty replacement for the same problems that developed with the black one's lock going all the way across the back and being easily defeated. This time I opted to just fix it myself rather than have it replaced again. I can't believe Bob Dozier condones the thin lock they put on these Thorn knives. It may be .040 and not .5. I have not seen his custom of this model personally but I would bet it is indeed beefier than this thing is. I would bet all of his line up is for that matter.