Is there anything else like the Sebenza pivot?

[cchu518]

Victor you bug me out dude, like a man on a singular mission to denounce a knife brand. At least there was no backhanded sleight this time. Lol. I can't say any bad ilk about Rockstead, the Higo in particular is very coveted and there are a million threads arguing that it's the smoothest knife that they've ever handled. Hella nice but expensive knife!

 

[Hinagea]

I like where this is going. Out of curiosity what are the VERY few brands that could compete with CRK/Rockstead?

 

[slorenzo]

I like where this is going. Out of curiosity what are the VERY few brands that could compete with CRK/Rockstead?

I would throw Shirogorov into the mix. Especially if smoothness is your concern.
Those Rocksteads are really nice, and I hope to own one soon but they are a completely different knife than a Sebenza. I think the Shiro's are more similar to a Sebbie as they both have a very simple design aesthetic.
However, I don't get the point of comparing a Rockstead to a Sebenza. If price wasn't a factor then I see how the argument can be made, but money is a factor. That is like comparing an M3 to 911 Turbo. The M3 is a great car in its own right, but it is destroyed in every statistical category when compared to a Turbo.

Also, Victorf if smoothest is of the upmost importance to you I would suggest getting a Andre Thorburn.

 

[EChoil]

My Grayman Dua seems to have the same pivot as my in-a-drawer Sebenza which I haven't carried in two years. Seems I once heard they used the same pivot...whether they still do or not I don't know. I know my Grayman has proven to be every bit the knife as Sebenzas I've owned.

 

[RevDevil]

Victorf, Rocksteads do seem to be amazing by all accounts, but in your first picture of the Insingo blade, what point are you making? You posted a picture but made no comment about the bushing system on the Sebenza. So what's your point?

The sheer awesomenessitude of the knife after the tremendous pimp job should do all the talking. I mean, look at that thing, what else can a person say? It's art to the next level for sure.

 

[flipe8]

I've always wanted to try a Dua, but from correspondence with the makers they stated they won't sell the folders to Canada because they don't want to ship across the border. That's their choice for sure, but I don't see any point in owning a knife from a company that doesn't want my business. Too bad, though, as I consider the Dua to be a perfect sized knife. I've read a number of reports of them having some blade play, but perhaps they've improved the tolerance over the last little while?

 

[unit]

The sheer awesomenessitude of the knife after the tremendous pimp job should do all the talking. I mean, look at that thing, what else can a person say? It's art to the next level for sure.

Too much has already been said! Behold the splendor in reverent silence!!

 

[egally08]

1. Rockstead knives are certainly built with a different mentality than a Sebenza (though it is one of only a very few knives that you could make a good argument for having similar levels of precision to a Sebenza)

I love CRK, but from my own measurements, and an independent measurement from someone else, Rockstead had much closer tolerances. I was pretty surprised to see it, but it makes sense if you've ever handled a RS.

Shirogorov also had very similar measurements to rockstead. I figured they would be inline with CRK since they are only slightly more in price (direct).

OP - I would suggest any RS, any Shirogorov, but especially the Hati with washers, if you want the action to be sebenza like. Have you thought about getting a different variation of sebenza? Perhaps an annual with a damascus blade?

 

[1234]

Actually Kershaw can compete ,,

Like butta !

[video=youtube;XUDJhifG0-M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUDJhifG0-M[/video]

1234,,,,

 

[Charr]

I love CRK, but from my own measurements, and an independent measurement from someone else, Rockstead had much closer tolerances. I was pretty surprised to see it, but it makes sense if you've ever handled a RS.

Shirogorov also had very similar measurements to rockstead. I figured they would be inline with CRK since they are only slightly more in price (direct).

OP - I would suggest any RS, any Shirogorov, but especially the Hati with washers, if you want the action to be sebenza like. Have you thought about getting a different variation of sebenza? Perhaps an annual with a damascus blade?

I'm honestly not the least but surprise by either of those facts honestly. Shirogorov does not produce on the same scale as CRK, and I have noticed that my own. Hati is an insanely well-made knife, even more so than my Sebenza on most accounts.
I can't believe I forgot to mention the Hati btw! How could I of all people forget to me too the Hati?!

 

[JNewell]

Spyderco uses a "stepped pivot" which achieves similar results (or atleast they used to). Basically a precision spacer for blade+washers stack. PM2, Manix (I believe), native 5 (I believe) and I think newer Militaries have it.

^
Bushing pivot. Yeah those Spydercos have a version of it. They all have different locks which makes it interesting.

It's a different design (single piece, in reality a stepped pivot, no bushing involved) and more importantly it is manufactured to different tolerances. A lot of long-time Spyderco owners think it's actually a step backwards from the standard pivot because a noticeable percentage of them come out of the factory oversized, which means you can't tighten the pivot enough to eliminate lateral pivot play. When Sal Glesser is quizzed on CRK, his response is that Spyderco doesn't try to match CRK tolerances, and if they did their prices would be similar. This isn't a lick on Spyderco at all.

 

[WyattCooper]

Don't Shirogorovs use pivot bushings?

 

[EChoil]

I've always wanted to try a Dua, but from correspondence with the makers they stated they won't sell the folders to Canada because they don't want to ship across the border. That's their choice for sure, but I don't see any point in owning a knife from a company that doesn't want my business. Too bad, though, as I consider the Dua to be a perfect sized knife. I've read a number of reports of them having some blade play, but perhaps they've improved the tolerance over the last little while?

I didn't know that about Grayman. I'd just get a friend in the U.S. to buy it and send it to me, but
can't blame you at all for feeling that way; kind of like a slap in the face when you really like a knife and want to purchase it. I wonder why dealers don't ship to Canada. Might be an interesting thread.

Never heard of blade play in one and can't imagine it, but if it ever occurred I guarantee you it would be perfect after sending it to them for a fix.

I just tell anyone who asks about a Dua: If you like the look just buy it! There will be no problems with the knife.​

It's a distinctive look knife. The only drawback I can think of about it is indeed if someone is turned off by the look and profile of the knife. Otherwise, IMO, it's perfect.

Hope someone knows the story on the pivot....

 

[uofaengr]

Facts based on my own disassembled Insingo - Among several weak areas, this is shown on rather soft CRK's S35 @ 58-59 RC

Facts based on an unused knife. Good stuff.

 

[8steve88]

You can find something similar, and in some ways more advanced, in a Caswell EDX custom knife. He not only makes a knife that can have the pivot tightened down without affecting the action of the knife, but he went a step farther and made it so that there are 2 adjustment points on the pivot.
The first one adjusts the centering of the blade, without directly effecting the action of the knife itself, and the second one adjusts the action tension, without affecting the centering. Because they are separate adjustments, it offers the ability to have a tighter action on a knife that is perfectly centered for one person, and to have an easier action for someone else that still remains perfectly centered.

Now that's absolute brilliance.

 

[Paka]

I would throw Shirogorov into the mix. Especially if smoothness is your concern.
Those Rocksteads are really nice, and I hope to own one soon but they are a completely different knife than a Sebenza. I think the Shiro's are more similar to a Sebbie as they both have a very simple design aesthetic.
However, I don't get the point of comparing a Rockstead to a Sebenza. If price wasn't a factor then I see how the argument can be made, but money is a factor. That is like comparing an M3 to 911 Turbo. The M3 is a great car in its own right, but it is destroyed in every statistical category when compared to a Turbo.

Also, Victorf if smoothest is of the upmost importance to you I would suggest getting a Andre Thorburn.

It seems like when it comes to CRK people decide when price is a factor and not a factor based around the knife..if you say a rat 2 is a better value than a small 21, that could be technically true, but if you're into knives it's not. Nobody NEEDS a 400+$ folding knife, when you get into that price range and above its not really about the best bang for your buck, IMO. You're not buying a sebenza or a rockstead based just on its value in relation to usefulness or materials.. So yes, a sebenza might be a better value than a rockstead, but if you're going to make that point then apply it to the sebenza as well.

 

[Sonnydaze]

Lots of good stuff in this thread. I've heard the names...Spydies, Dua's, TSF Beast, Shiros, Rockstead...and, of course, CRK's.
I have owned many nice folders, including many of the above, although no Shiros or Rocksteads.

I have always loved my PM2's and Millies...and once had a nice collection, even though I'm NOT a collector. Got rid of them, but I have a couple of "cheapies" left, and I still enjoy the compression lock as one of my favorites.

Contrary to omgomgyouguys's experience, my Sebbies are among the smoothest folders that I've owned, and I've been nicked more than a few times for NOT moving my fingers out of the way of a closing blade. I've not had to polish any washers to get blooded. I will continue, forever, to have Sebbies in my personal collection.

What Charr said pretty well echoes my own opinion..."the sad fact of the matter is that money is always an object when discussing the quality of a product"...and...Charr presented plenty of evidence to back up his conclusion..."CRK is not for everyone."

Certainly, I cannot argue with egally08 from personal experience, but his statement makes me wonder a bit... "I love CRK, but from my own measurements, and an independent measurement from someone else, Rockstead had much closer tolerances."
From CRK videos and other folks' posted summaries, I have been of the opinion that Chris achieved a tolerance level of (+/-) one ten-thousandth of one inch...or 0.00010." Now, I don't really know this to be factual in every aspect of his build, but just how accurately can a "hobbyist" measure beyond this level of precision? As a one-time machinist who helped to surface-grind small parts for early space vehicles that had to meet this level of precision, it's pretty difficult. NOT wanting to get into a semantics discussion, I will opine accuracy as the combination of both trueness and precision.

And now, perhaps, I have to add a comment. SMOOTHNESS is NICE...but...
I love it when I release the lock on my PM2's or large Sebbies, but it's a momentary pleasure. I'm much more concerned with a solid lockup and no blade-wiggle...with how the blade cuts or slices, or holds an edge, or holds up to lateral "emergency-use" stresses. Perhaps..."Smoothness" is over-rated. Is this really hypocrisy?

 

[bhyde]

Lots of good stuff in this thread. I've heard the names...Spydies, Dua's, TSF Beast, Shiros, Rockstead...and, of course, CRK's.
I have owned many nice folders, including many of the above, although no Shiros or Rocksteads.

I have always loved my PM2's and Millies...and once had a nice collection, even though I'm NOT a collector. Got rid of them, but I have a couple of "cheapies" left, and I still enjoy the compression lock as one of my favorites.

Contrary to omgomgyouguys's experience, my Sebbies are among the smoothest folders that I've owned, and I've been nicked more than a few times for NOT moving my fingers out of the way of a closing blade. I've not had to polish any washers to get blooded. I will continue, forever, to have Sebbies in my personal collection.

What Charr said pretty well echoes my own opinion..."the sad fact of the matter is that money is always an object when discussing the quality of a product"...and...Charr presented plenty of evidence to back up his conclusion..."CRK is not for everyone."

Certainly, I cannot argue with egally08 from personal experience, but his statement makes me wonder a bit... "I love CRK, but from my own measurements, and an independent measurement from someone else, Rockstead had much closer tolerances."
From CRK videos and other folks' posted summaries, I have been of the opinion that Chris achieved a tolerance level of (+/-) one ten-thousandth of one inch...or 0.00010." Now, I don't really know this to be factual in every aspect of his build, but just how accurately can a "hobbyist" measure beyond this level of precision? As a one-time machinist who helped to surface-grind small parts for early space vehicles that had to meet this level of precision, it's pretty difficult. NOT wanting to get into a semantics discussion, I will opine accuracy as the combination of both trueness and precision.

And now, perhaps, I have to add a comment. SMOOTHNESS is NICE...but...
I love it when I release the lock on my PM2's or large Sebbies, but it's a momentary pleasure. I'm much more concerned with a solid lockup and no blade-wiggle...with how the blade cuts or slices, or holds an edge, or holds up to lateral "emergency-use" stresses. Perhaps..."Smoothness" is over-rated. Is this really hypocrisy?

All of this..very well said,.not much I can add to this except the bolded part.

I can confirm the tolerance to a degree,..But it was -.0000, +.0002 for 1 or 2 of the parts.. It's been a very long time since I made them, but I can definitely remember the tolerance.
On the rest of the bolded part... Doubtful to downright bs.. I don't have the tools at home to verify this, but I sure do at work. "Far greater tolerances"..No, let's analyze this a bit. Any tighter fits between mating parts, would be subjective to environmental changes. In a warm climate,..it might work. In a cold climate, it most certainly wouldn't.
While you can specify tighter tolerances for benign parts such as scale thickness, but why? It just makes it more expensive for nothing.

 

[Sonnydaze]

I can confirm the tolerance to a degree,..But it was -.0000, +.0002 for 1 or 2 of the parts.. It's been a very long time since I made them, but I can definitely remember the tolerance.
While you can specify tighter tolerances for benign parts such as scale thickness, but why? It just makes it more expensive for nothing.

thanx for your reply. I think that you may be the first "credible" source that I've heard on this subject. As you say, there is nothing to be gained by trying to attain such close dimensions on ALL of the parts.
And...yes...many of us still love and respect our CRK's, whether we carry one or not...

 

[unit]

All of this..very well said,.not much I can add to this except the bolded part.

I can confirm the tolerance to a degree,..But it was -.0000, +.0002 for 1 or 2 of the parts.. It's been a very long time since I made them, but I can definitely remember the tolerance.
On the rest of the bolded part... Doubtful to downright bs.. I don't have the tools at home to verify this, but I sure do at work. "Far greater tolerances"..No, let's analyze this a bit. Any tighter fits between mating parts, would be subjective to environmental changes. In a warm climate,..it might work. In a cold climate, it most certainly wouldn't.
While you can specify tighter tolerances for benign parts such as scale thickness, but why? It just makes it more expensive for nothing.

Exactly! Some seem to think that if your tolerances have four zeros, then five would be better and six would be better still. It simply does not work that way. Knowledge of the material properties an the necessary function of the parts can not be overlooked (including planned failure points).