Is This Hunting?

[22-rimfire]

My personal feeling is that a state's hunting laws and guidelines define the "ethics" from which people hunt. As such, I see no problem with food crops that are planted for game, corn feeders etc. where they are legal.

I saw that show on the Outdoor Channel. The owner said that he had a buck to doe ration of 1.0:1.5. That is a really high ratio and as such suggests high fence and the herd being carefully managed. I bet the everyday Joe could not hunt there for $10,000. It appears that deer there are managed as a business and they likely charge substantial prices. Folks like our vice president are invited to hunt there. Wish they would invite me!!

In Texas, the various elevated stands have become part of the standard approach to hunting. People defend the corn feeders and such as you are not likely to get a chance to shoot a 150 BC buck near one unless it is a high fence situation. Pretty much only the dumber younger bucks hit the feeders during the daylight hours. South Texas is very brushy with typcially modest changes in elevation. The stands allow the hunter to see further. Folks in mountainous terrain choose tree stands and hunt the ridge lines so they can see further. Not necessarily to shoot further, but to perhaps see the approaching deer before it sees or senses the hunter.

The only thing that really bothered me about the referenced show is the way the shooter reached for his gun. The rifle was not close to being ready. So, he did not expect problems with movement alerting the buck to his presence. His motions were not slow and he stood up to make the shot. He also put off the safety very loudly.

What if he was hunting with a bow? Would that make you feel better? Probably not as you would not see the buck on camera until it was within bow range or walked within the range after being sighted (filmed).

 

[beezaur]

Yup, harvesting, not hunting.

There is no real pursuit, hence no hunting.

I would say that many of these things are basically comparable to shooting a tame cow. But, is there anything really wrong with shooting a tame cow? Or shooting a game animal in the same manner as the butcher who arrives at the farmer's field with a .22 for the deed? I have some dead cow in the fridge right now waiting to be lunch that was killed in exactly that way.

I think what we tend to object to is when these "harvesting" activities are passed off as hunting. I find that obnoxious myself.

Scott

 

[G L Drew]

Do you mean you didn't like the lounge chair I had in that stand?
Why weren't you at the last show here in town? Good to see you on the forums.

Terrill; that lounge chair didn't have any cushions, there was rain water in the seat and there was no roof on the stand. You didn't provide me with any bait (not so much as as bag of corn) and I had to walk at least a quarter of a mile to get there. I just can't hunt under those rough conditions!

Seriously, I appreciate your hospitality, you have a great piece of land there and a nice camp.

 

[Evil Eye Earl]

Yup, harvesting, not hunting.

There is no real pursuit, hence no hunting.

I would say that many of these things are basically comparable to shooting a tame cow. But, is there anything really wrong with shooting a tame cow? Or shooting a game animal in the same manner as the butcher who arrives at the farmer's field with a .22 for the deed? I have some dead cow in the fridge right now waiting to be lunch that was killed in exactly that way.

I think what we tend to object to is when these "harvesting" activities are passed off as hunting. I find that obnoxious myself.

Scott

I can see you have not hunted or harvested or if you have not very much.

If you build a hunting blind or stand and have a food plot and a feeder
does not guarantee you a harvested, hunted animal.It does increase your chances of seeing deer and other game.
The experienced stalker reads game sign,and either sets up an ambush site
or spots and stalks his prey that is sleeping or feeding.Also no guarantee.
The results are the same if an animal is taken it has been harvested by hunting.

The only tame deer I have see have been bottle fed.
Food plots or feeders do not tame animals.

 

[Fiddleback]

I don't think thats hunting. I think its tourism. I've deer hunted since childhood, and have only taken two. Sure, much of that has been due to being a mediocre hunter, but I like not knowing if I'll even see a deer. Finding a deer is a big part of the hunt to me. I guess I enjoy being in the woods.

 

[longbow50]

Hunting is a fairly wide spectrum of devices and styles. IMHO, killing an animal over artifically placed bait, or purposefully planted food plots isn't fair chase, but it sure is hunting.

 

[Codger_64]

I don't think thats hunting. I think its tourism. I've deer hunted since childhood, and have only taken two. Sure, much of that has been due to being a mediocre hunter, but I like not knowing if I'll even see a deer. Finding a deer is a big part of the hunt to me. I guess I enjoy being in the woods.

I've hunted for many, many years and taken well over a hundred. I'd have a difficult time trying to tally the exact number. If you've hunted since childhood and only taken two, you are either not a very dedicated hunter, very young still, or don't hunt where there are deer, in which case you are not a good predator!

I do very much enjoy being "in the woods", and in fact, pretty much live there. I still have no idea whether or not I'll see a deer, much less one in range, or even one I will have an opportunity to take, each time I go. But I do what I can to increase the odds in my favor. I seldom hunt "over a food source", since deer use a variety of sources 24 hours a day. I try to pattern them as they change with the seasons of the food sources, moving from bedding areas, to an oak grove, to honeysuckle thickets, etc. At times, depending on the season and weather, "jump-shooting" is the only productive method. This is where you stalk, creep, crawl into the dense thickets where the deer are holding up. At times when the weather is bad and wind and rain are the rule of the day, I go sit in a covered blind. Still no gaurantee of seeing, much less shooting a deer, but only by putting in the time to actually be there can you increase your odds of doing so. But regardless of the method I use on a given day, I feel like I am hunting. I manage my oak grove, is it a "bait or purposefully planted food source"? What about the thickets I let grow? The clover in my pasture is sometimes frequented by deer, but you can bet you have lowered you odds if you set up on an open field in broad daylight.

Summation: if you prefer one method over another, a particular habitat over another, going cold turkey into the woods a couple of days a year and calling it hunting, fine. Do it that way. But if you have been hunting for years and not been successful, something is wrong with your methods. You are what my ancestors refered to as a vegetarian! And that too is good. I like turnips, taters and corn myself. Goes good with venison steak!

As a friend from Mexico says:

"Menos burros, mas olotes"
------------------------------
"Less donkeys, more corncobs"

Codger :thumbup:

 

[Fiddleback]

Yea, I'd consider myself (33 yrs) a mediocre (as stated above), or even a not very didicated hunter. I hunt once or twice a year on my grandfathers farm in Batesville Mississippi. I have no time to pattern them. I grab my 30/30 and walk the property. Often my daughter is with me. There are no herds of deer there, so seeing one is a big deal for me. I am proud of my two deer, but I am very impressed with you're prowess.

 

[beezaur]

I can see you have not hunted or harvested or if you have not very much. . . .

Wow. That's rude. Please don't make dismissive statements about me when you obviously don't know anything about me.

I have hunted since I was 14, about 20 years. At this very moment my hunting rifle is leaned up against the cabinet by my desk, and my bow is in the other room next to its broadheads. In my pack is my current hunting license. My family hunts; my wife's family hunts. I grew up in and live in a hunting environment. I just don't fish (too damned boring).

Now:

When you "hunt" you go out and hunt for game, a proactive thing. Hence the use of the verb, hunt.

When you lie in wait with bait, you are not actually hunting for anything, as far as I a would say. It is only "hunting" to the extent of legalistic definitions of the State. You are not even like the spider waiting at its web -- the spider has no bait. That doesn't make it wrong or bad, but I do not consider it more than harvesting.

When I "hunt" (legal definition here) sometimes I go out and stalk things, track them, etc. Other times I sit on a hill and wait for things to wander by. When I go out, I enjoy the hunt. I enjoy looking around and finding things. When I shoot coyotes, I do it from my hill, in fact sometimes from a picnic table I put there. Legally that is hunting, but I don't consider it to be anything more than shooting wild dogs.

My brothers-in-law "hunt" too. One of their most infamous episodes was the year they and their friends and the friends' girllfriends all went out before dawn on the opening day of elk season. With trucks and whatnot they kept the elk in a field until the first minute of legal hunting time. Then they opened fire in unison on the herd. I don't remember the number of shots fired, but it was over a dozen. After the killing, they drove the tractor around and loaded all the elk into pickups and drove off. Most of the animals were not even field dressed.

That's not hunting. It's harvesting. To call the above account "hunting" is a bit of a stretch, if you ask me.

Scott

 

[Evil Eye Earl]

Wow. That's rude. Please don't make dismissive statements about me when you obviously don't know anything about me.





My brothers-in-law "hunt" too. One of their most infamous episodes was the year they and their friends and the friends' girllfriends all went out before dawn on the opening day of elk season. With trucks and whatnot they kept the elk in a field until the first minute of legal hunting time. Then they opened fire in unison on the herd. I don't remember the number of shots fired, but it was over a dozen. After the killing, they drove the tractor around and loaded all the elk into pickups and drove off. Most of the animals were not even field dressed.

That's not hunting. It's harvesting. To call the above account "hunting" is a bit of a stretch, if you ask me.

Scott

What your brother inlaw did is illegal in every State.....using vehicles to keep them in the field.....shooting indescrimently into a herd....consfication of vehicles,firearms and anything else in their posession ,fines,loss of hunting and fishing privilages for life ....possible jail time.
Were you with them during the" illegal hunt,harvest"?

 

[beezaur]

What your brother inlaw did is illegal in every State . . .
Were you with them during the" illegal hunt,harvest"?

This was done in the field in front of the house where I live. I watched through binoculars after being awakened by a barrage of shooting. The parts that I did not witness came from the Great Hunters' accounts after the expedition, as they were relaxing while the wimmenfolk did the butchering. I tracked them later in the day to get an idea of who was where. Shell casings were all over.

In fairness, they were not shooting indicriminantly. They synchronized their shooting somehow, and at least ended up with the same number of (recovered) dead elk as shooters. I saw no extra elk.

Scott

 

[Evil Eye Earl]

This was done in the field in front of the house where I live. I watched through binoculars after being awakened by a barrage of shooting. The parts that I did not witness came from the Great Hunters' accounts after the expedition, as they were relaxing while the wimmenfolk did the butchering.

In fairness, they were not shooting indicriminantly. They synchronized their shooting somehow, and at least ended up with tha same number of (recovered) dead elk as shooters.

Scott

Not my kinda "hunt":thumbdn:
At least they trained the women right.....

 

[shotgunner11]

As long as its a humane kill and the animal isn't wasted (like trophy hunting:barf: :barf: ) I dont see a problem with it.

 

[Evil Eye Earl]

As long as its a humane kill and the animal isn't wasted (like trophy hunting:barf: :barf: ) I dont see a problem with it.

Big problem!
One word "recovered " dead Elk.
He does not say how many wounded Elk were shot indiscrimently
in the herd.:thumbdn:
How is trophy hunting a wasted animal?

 

[beezaur]

There was one report of one of the girlfriends missing or wounding an elk, then chasing it to the treeline where she lost it. She fired into the brush at noises, but was unable to locate anything.

I don't so much have a problem with baitng as I do with that kind of frenzied recklessness.

Sitting over a feeder is certainly not very glamorous, and I don't personally think much of it, but it isn't dangerous and doesn't usually involve trespassing or the destruction of property. As long as it isn't a means of poaching, it is pretty benign.

The real problem (to me) is the guys who absolutely will do anything to get the game. The only thing that even enters their minds is killing something. You see ordinarilly normal guys sighting in on roadsigns, puling down fences with 4-wheelers, throwing trash on others' land, and even shooting at farm animals as though to relieve some pent-up urge. It is as though their brains have dribbled out their backsides.

So, back to the topic, I don't see a huge problem with harvesting. It is annoying when it is held up as proof of manhood. "Hey Scott, I see you didn't get your deer this year. I got this huge buck." But they went harvesting, and I went hunting.

I am 5x the marksman, 5x the woodsman, and yet I am considered to be some kind of underperformer because I didn't shoot the big elk out of the field at dawn on opening day.

Scott

 

[Evil Eye Earl]

There was one report of one of the girlfriends missing or wounding an elk, then chasing it to the treeline where she lost it. She fired into the brush at noises, but was unable to locate anything.

I don't so much have a problem with baitng as I do with that kind of frenzied recklessness.

Sitting over a feeder is certainly not very glamorous, and I don't personally think much of it, but it isn't dangerous and doesn't usually involve trespassing or the destruction of property. As long as it isn't a means of poaching, it is pretty benign.

The real problem (to me) is the guys who absolutely will do anything to get the game. The only thing that even enters their minds is killing something. You see ordinarilly normal guys sighting in on roadsigns, puling down fences with 4-wheelers, throwing trash on others' land, and even shooting at farm animals as though to relieve some pent-up urge. It is as though their brains have dribbled out their backsides.

So, back to the topic, I don't see a huge problem with harvesting. It is annoying when it is held up as proof of manhood. "Hey Scott, I see you didn't get your deer this year. I got this huge buck." But they went harvesting, and I went hunting.

I am 5x the marksman, 5x the woodsman, and yet I am considered to be some kind of underperformer because I didn't shoot the big elk out of the field at dawn on opening day.

Scott

Performance has nothing to do with it.....it's old mother "LUCK".
To increase your "LUCK"do this .
Next Elk season get up about 2 hours earlier than anyone else.Take a good pair of binoculars and glass everything.You will be surprized what you can see in the dark with good bino's
Go to a high spot at the edge of a meadow,sit back where the shadow of the trees will be when the sun comes up keep the sun behind you
and wait until at least 2 in the afternoon.Wait and listen,look for movement.
I have had Elk come running up the mountain when the hunters start coming up and the shooting starts.I have watched them lay down in the grass
and not move as hunters came walking by.
After 2 pm do this
Travel down to the thickest black timber you can find with blow downs,I'm talking the kind you have to crawl over and ease through this stuff glassing as you go...you will find you will see more animals.
If you use your binoculars more than your feet you will have success.
Just please donot take sound shots....identify you quarry and squezze
a round off.
When that big bull drops and you walk over to him you will look around
and think someone esle must have shot it because you donot have this kind
of "LUCK"
Take care EEE

 

[beezaur]

I gave up rifle hunting for large game years ago. There got to be too many people out there with dubious behaviors for my tastes.

It has turned out to be a good thing. I really like bow hunting a lot better, even if it is much harder to get anything. I still use the modern firearm for 'yote perforation, however.

Work is the big problem. Not much time these days. I need to win the lottery and get out more. Guess I better start buying lottery tickets then. . .

Scott

 

[shotgunner11]

I'm sorry, I didn't read the whole thread, I was commenting on the situation in the first post.

To clarify, when I say "trophy hunting", I mean killing the animal for the sole reason of mounting the rack or bust.
As long as your making use of the meat and or hide, I dont consider it mearly trophy hunting.

 

[Codger_64]

I believe that is most States, and I know it is so in Tennessee and Arkansas, wanton waste of edible portions of wildlife is a pretty serious offense, the same as poaching.

 

[jdrew614]

As a kid, sometimes I'd take the shotgun instead of my .22 when I went to hunt squirrel. But honestly, it didn't feel much like hunting. Felt more like blowing squirrels out of the trees. But when you're feeling lazy and just want some squirrel to eat - well, harvesting with a 12 gauge is okay.

In my opinion, a rifle is just a kitchen utensil - no different than a knife or a frying pan.

AMEN!

Depending on where you live and where you "hunt" sometimes it's more hunting and sometimes, more harvest! Just got in from a GREAT evening spent in a tree with my bow and J.R.R. Tolkien, kinda glad I didn't shoot anything, would have turned it into work Here in NW Indiana, the woodlots are smaller than the corn and bean fields so the deer tend to channel through fairly dependably. A time out without even seeing a deer is very rare.

For me, in this place, scouting, reading the wind and the sign to get myself within 15 yards of a nice eater or a great buck is what makes it hunting. Whether it's taken with my longbow, my compound, handgun or muzzleloader, it's the stalk and placement that makes it "hunting".

Next weekend, I'm headed down to Hoosier National Forest. 200,000 acres of rolling hills, hardwood forests, creeks, and a few small marshes makes this much more like "real hunting" for me. The "wilderness" camping ( = pit toilet and no running water but for the creek) and being out with my dad and brother make it all that much more exciting.