Is waterjetting a no no in custom handmade knives?

K

killharder

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Feb 8, 2011
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I often wonder if die hard knife inthusiasts care if their knife started from a blank that the designer thought up drafted and had waterjet out, rather than using a band saw or files to create. Does it take away from the end product if it is still designed and created out of a passion to make beautiful high quality product. Sometimes when I am hand drilling and hand sawing my knife blank out, I think there has to be a better quicker way of doing this. So does the amount of labor and sweat spent cutting out a blank add value to the end item? And is it no longer considered handmade?

I love making things by hand and I do love the reactions I receive when people ask "how did you make it?" And I say with hand tools. The reaction is priceless. I ask this question, because I see comments when people make a great looking high quality knife and one person asks "was it waterjet out?" So does it matter?
 
I have no objection to a man taking advantage of technology.


That said I also appreciate the care given to a completely handmade item. Whether or not I would pay extra for either one is completely subjective to the item in question.
 
It depends. Where does using outside labor end? If someone else heat treats, someone else provides the steel, cuts the steel, someone else designs the locking mechanism and flipping mechanism (when used)...what are you really doing to the knife? Grinding the pre-cut blade, sharpening it and assembling/pimping. Does that make you a knife maker? On the flip side, does it matter what label you use?

My beef has always been with the lack of thought into cutting performance and heat treating. If performance isn't the goal of making a knife, you're a knife pimper. Nothing wrong with that.
 
I prefer EDM
 
Well there's no denying that water-jetting takes the "Handmade" out of "Custom Handmade Knives". ;)

This has been discussed here from time to time. Without any broadly accepted definition as to exactly what constitutes a "Custom Handmade Knife", there will never be any closure on this topic, just varying opinions.

My personal definition of a 'Custom Handmade Knife', is one created by hand utilizing only basic hand operated and/or non-sophisticated machinery. But then, opinions vary as to what defines or qualifies as 'non-sophisticated' machinery?

My personal definition of a 'Custom Knife', is a knife that's commissioned which will be different, even if only slightly, from other 'Custom' or production or mass-produced knives.
The knife is primarily created by an individual craftsman/artist however some processes such as embellishment (engraving for example) and/or production tasks (water-jetting, blade hardening) can be done by others.
 
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Kevin Jones said:
Well there's no denying that water-jetting takes the "Handmade" out of "Custom Handmade Knives". ;)

This has been discussed here from time to time. Without any broadly accepted definition as to exactly what constitutes a "Custom Handmade Knife", there will never be any closure on this topic, just varying opinions.

My personal definition of a Custom Handmade Knife, is one created by hand utilizing only basic hand operated and/or non-sophisticated machinery. But then, opinions vary as to what defines or qualifies as 'non-sophisticated' machinery?
Click to expand...

And you know what they say about opinions...
 
I think disclosure is the key, like Russ said.

People can get overboard trying to define "handmade" or "custom", when in the end the end it is up to the individual buyer whether the knife is worth the asking price.
For example, I use waterjet to cut out my full tang axes that I make. It just wouldn't make sense for me to try and do them by hand. It would waste a large amount of material and be terribly time consuming. Both of those things would add majorly to the final cost of the axe. I think it just makes more sense, to use waterjet in that case.
Just like it makes sense for bladesmiths to use a power hammer, instead of killing their bodies spending way more time forging entirely by hand.

Tools and machines mean more buyers and collectors get the opportunity to purchase knives from their favorite makers every year, I think that is a win for everyone.
 
I honestly do not care how someone goes about making a knife, so long as they are honest about their methodology and the end product is of high quality.
 
Semi-production may be the key word here. I make folders, mostly slip joints and sell them for far less money than a one of a kind slip joint. The knife is my own design and I have to pay somebody to make the program and water jet the parts. I have to send him the steels of my choice and before the knife works correctly we need to tweak the program sometimes several times so its not a quick thing to do although I sell the end result for less money. If I were a high production shop You better believe everything would be water jet.
 
Waterjetting does save time and gives repeatability so for handmade knives no problem
Custom IMO is just that "One Of" Custom made to the customers or your design specs
 
BenR.T. said:
I think disclosure is the key, like Russ said.

People can get overboard trying to define "handmade" or "custom", when in the end the end it is up to the individual buyer whether the knife is worth the asking price.
For example, I use waterjet to cut out my full tang axes that I make. It just wouldn't make sense for me to try and do them by hand. It would waste a large amount of material and be terribly time consuming. Both of those things would add majorly to the final cost of the axe. I think it just makes more sense, to use waterjet in that case.
Just like it makes sense for bladesmiths to use a power hammer, instead of killing their bodies spending way more time forging entirely by hand.
Click to expand...

Good point Ben.
Perhaps a water-jetting machine and a power hammer would be an example of the difference between a sophisticated and a non-sophisticated machine and perhaps the difference between a 'custom' and 'custom handmade' knife?
 
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Water jet is fine with me. As long as you don't just buy a bunch of waterjet blanks that are available to everyone else. They need to be of your design or a limited run for the maker. And they need to be rough blanks not finished. The grinding should be done by the maker.

Nathan does machined blanks. That's fine with me as he does them completely. If he just had them done and then put on the handles then I would have a problem with it.

Just my opinion. But I do buy knives here on the knifemakers for sale forum. And if I buy one that comes from a pre-made blank and the maker just added handles I would be pissed.
 
Kevin Jones said:
Good point Ben.
Perhaps a water-jetting machine and a power hammer would be an example of the difference between a sophisticated and a non-sophisticated machine and perhaps the difference between a 'custom' and 'custom handmade' knife?
Click to expand...

Perhaps Kevin, but again that would be a matter of opinion. There is definitely room in the market for everyone and all types of manufacturing of knives.
This is great for customers.
I can equally appreciate the skill of a mostly machined knife like Nathan Corothers makes or a completely hand forged, down to an edge, knife that Raymond Richards makes. They are both very cool for different reasons.
 
BenR.T. said:
Perhaps Kevin, but again that would be a matter of opinion. There is definitely room in the market for everyone and all types of manufacturing of knives.
This is great for customers.
I can equally appreciate the skill of a mostly machined knife like Nathan Corothers makes or a completely hand forged, down to an edge, knife that Raymond Richards makes. They are both very cool for different reasons.
Click to expand...

I agree on ALL accounts.
 
BenR.T. said:
I think disclosure is the key, like Russ said.

People can get overboard trying to define "handmade" or "custom", when in the end the end it is up to the individual buyer whether the knife is worth the asking price.
For example, I use waterjet to cut out my full tang axes that I make. It just wouldn't make sense for me to try and do them by hand. It would waste a large amount of material and be terribly time consuming. Both of those things would add majorly to the final cost of the axe. I think it just makes more sense, to use waterjet in that case.
Just like it makes sense for bladesmiths to use a power hammer, instead of killing their bodies spending way more time forging entirely by hand.

Tools and machines mean more buyers and collectors get the opportunity to purchase knives from their favorite makers every year, I think that is a win for everyone.
Click to expand...

Excellent assessment. Personally, I don't really care what steps a high quality maker takes to produce his product. For me, it's all about the end product and to a MUCH lesser degree what economies the maker was able to achieve yet still put out the product I am seeking - high quality of the type only achievable through custom work, not factory production. As to "handmade", one would think that it's definition would continue to change as machinery and other technologies advance through the course of time. "Handmade" to me is best described in the words of Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart (when trying to define pornography), "I know it when I see it".
 
With water jet cutting, the distinction might not be so much one of files and stones versus robotic production lines, but perhaps one of a bandsaw or even your own milling machine, CNC or not, vs a CNC water jet, laser, EDM or mill. What if you own your own EDM machine like Bailey Bradshaw or Todd Fischer? These hairs we sometimes want to split are getting thinner by the day. I wonder how this compares to someone who does all of the work "by hand", whatever that means, but buys commercial damascus? Couldn't someone like me who makes my own could honestly call that "cheating" because you have gone way beyond just buying raw steel in a more easily usable bar/sheet form? We can take anything to an extreme, like the whole sole authorship thing. I can always refute that unless you have tree branches, tusks or antlers growing out of your head. ;)
 
Thanks guys. A lot of well put points here. It seems no matter which side of the fence you fall on there is a market for each. (waterjet, EDM, CNC or completely handmade) There are definitely a lot of high quality knife makers on this forum who use both methods. I guess in the end be honest on which method you uesd and and let the buyer make the choice.
 
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