Is waterjetting a no no in custom handmade knives?

[Kevin Jones]

Perhaps. I would not agree. I think a power hammer is also a sophisticated machine. In fact, I would equate a knife made using a power hammer and a knife made using a CNC machine. I do not think either one should be considered to be truly handmade. To me, handmade means hand forged, hand hammered, hand ground, hand filed, etc.

As far as degree of sophistication, comparing a power hammer to a CNC machine is like comparing a manual typewriter to a laptop.

In addition, using a power hammer still requires an abundance of knife making skill from the operator to profile a good blade. The machine is just reducing the manual labor as opposed to swinging a hammer.

On the other hand, the operator of a CNC machine is more using technical skills to program the machine and the machine is profiling the blade.
A substantial difference IMO.

 

[Shawn Hatcher]

Awwww, man!!! Mammoth - really?
Okay, rigging up my homemade-DNA-sequencing machine right now...
Got to re-read Jurassic Park...
I'm on it, guys!!!

Well, since you're rigging up the machine anyway . . . is it to late to request a santoku with a triceratop horn handle??? Supposed to be good for keeping the yang up.

 

[SharpByCoop]

If waterjetting a profile can allow a maker to spend more skilled time finishing the knife OR offer the client the same quality for less money OR even earn the maker a few more hard-earned dollars, then it's a go. Possibly all three.

This message is brought to you now from an electronic keyboard. If I typed it on a piece of paper and mailed it in, would it be more relevant?

This said, I have a couple of 'handmade' knives forged and made by Tai Goo. I'm betting the most modern technology he used was the files and his wood carving tools. It's a special piece FOR this reason.

I can see two sides and understand both are correct.

Bottom line, let a wallet decide what's best.

Coop

 

[W.M.B.]

As far as degree of sophistication, comparing a power hammer to a CNC machine is like comparing a manual typewriter to a laptop.

In addition, using a power hammer still requires an abundance of knife making skill from the operator to profile a good blade. The machine is just reducing the manual labor as opposed to swinging a hammer.

On the other hand, the operator of a CNC machine is using a skill set that's non-related to knife making to program the machine and the machine is profiling the blade.
A substantial difference IMO.

If the cnc operator is making a knife, then how is programming that machine not a skill related to knife making?
When DaVinci was commissioned to paint altarpieces, the amount of different pigments was often specified in the contract. However many grams of cobalt, or gold, or whatever. Literally, his paintings were at least in part valued by the pound.
It seems to me that the reasonable thing for a consumer is to look at a product, or evaluate its function. Let the maker worry about how to make it. You might as well specify what color trousers they wear while they forge your knife. I don't see why they should be obligated to tell you how they made it.

 

[Michael Rader]

Ok - Triceretops horn. Check.
Yang up. Check.

And, you know, this topic really does come up a lot here. The Guild has their rules and the ABS has their rules. Should the Knife-World have a firm definition? And should that definition be the same as what "custom" means in the gun industry, jewelry industry and car industry? Should we really be striving to put it in stone once-and-for-all? For all of you that are collectors reading this, would you feel better if everyone used the same language and had the same expectations?

Personally, I think it isn't really practical. But, I don't really know... is it?

 

[Kevin Jones]

If the cnc operator is making a knife, then how is programming that machine not a skill related to knife making?

My point was that programming a CNC machine is more a technical skill opposed to a knife making skill.

 

[Alpha Knife Supply]

My point was that programming a CNC machine is more a technical skill opposed to a knife making skill.

CNC programming & CNC operation are just as valid knifemaking skills as operating a manual mill or lathe.

Just because a machine can make accurate parts repeatably does not diminish the skill set of the people running & programming the machine. To state otherwise demonstrates a lack of knowledge about CNC tools.

Chuck

 

[Michael Rader]

Yeah, I mean, look at the work of Todd Begg. Lot's of CNC machining and he is an incredibly artistic, in-demand knifemaker that I believe most people would classify as making custom handmade knives. yes? no?

 

[Kevin Jones]

CNC programming & CNC operation are just as valid knifemaking skills as operating a manual mill or lathe.

Just because a machine can make accurate parts repeatably does not diminish the skill set of the people running & programming the machine. To state otherwise demonstrates a lack of knowledge about CNC tools.
Chuck

Running and programing a CNC machine takes a great amount of skill, however more of a technical nature than traditional knife making skills. My point was not that that it didn't require skill to run a CNC machine but that the CNC machine profiles the blade, the power hammer just provides the force to help the knife maker physically profile the blade.

 

[Leading Edge Fab]

If CNC waterjet machines were as inexpensive as a pressure washer most knifemakers would have one in their shop instead of bandsaws.

 

[NickWheeler]

If CNC waterjet machines were as inexpensive as a pressure washer most knifemakers would have one in their shop instead of bandsaws.

Ha!!! I know I would!!!


While I personally see no reason for there to be issue with whatever method a maker uses... The idea that utilizing water jet could be a "no-no" just baffles me.

While owning and operating a CNC waterjet unit like Mark does is a very high tech endeavor... the part of the process that it accomplishes for a knife maker is very basic. You could probably teach a monkey to use a bandsaw and grinder to profile a blade. So farming that out, IMHO, is simply a time saver.

I suppose it gets people thinking of the guys that assemble kit knives and sell them as full-blown custom pieces... but it's not like that at all.



As far as the CNC operation... I actually understand what Kevin is trying to say... I'm just not on the same page. While it's true that programming and operating a CNC machine is not necessarily a knife related skill... It takes a knife maker to do it well and have it apply to knife making.

Just like blacksmithing isn't a knife related skill. There are world class blacksmiths that could dazzle you while operating a trip hammer, but couldn't make a fine quality custom knife to save their life.

Once that blacksmith learns to be a knife maker, then their blacksmith skills can apply directly to making world class knives. Huh hem.... Dave Lisch!!!

So a CNC programmer/operator without knife making knowledge/skills is no better off than a blacksmith with no knife making knowledge/skills.

Or so me thinks!


FWIW- I have never had anything water jet cut because I can never commit to one design that much... but when I do, I won't hesitate to send the work to Leading Edge Fabrication, Inc.

 

[JParanee]

I had a customer about five years ago ask me to make him a knife not using any modern equipment whatsoever and that he also wanted me to make every part from scratch. I quoted him 100K and told him it would take at least 80 years. (I honestly didn't know how long it would take to grow my own Walnut tree, but I figured 80 was pretty close.) I explained that to learn to make my own steel from iron sand, get a charcoal forge set up, make my own hammers and files and drill bits, would take quite a while. I would also have to build a workshop/shed from trees I grew myself too with an axe I'd have to make myself too. Probably also needed to shear wool from my own sheep to make my own clothes. So, yes, I was being ridiculous. And later I made him a regular knife in the way that I normally do. And he was happy - I think.

The ABS has rules about the things that have to go into a knife that has a "J.S." or "M.S." stamp on it and if you were to waterjet-cut a blank instead of forging it, that would be a huge problem. It's nice that we aren't required to smelt our own steel and that I can buy a neat little bar of 1084 and forge a knife out of it, grind a little bit on it, heat treat-it myself and put my stamp on it. I don't have to grow my own wood either. I can buy a nice little block that someone else stabilized. They are pretty reasonable about it in my opinion. And, the customers that are buying a custom J.S. or M.S. knife know what they are getting.

However, for a customer buying a stock-removal knife having a problem with the maker sending it out for water/laser/EDM cutting instead of having him bandsaw it personally, that seems pretty unreasonable.

(edit) ...unless the customer is wanting a one-of-a-kind knife. Generally, knives that are water-cut are exactly the same and you are cutting multiple blanks out of a sheet. I guess it goes back to letting the customer know and decide what they are wanting.

This is good

Doug C also summed it up well, the tactical folder guys coined the phrase years ago "Mid Tech"

If you are using fire and a hammer to form your blades

Wheeler

Or a CNC

Nathan

Both are an art, both are viable ways to make a custom blade

So is water jetting

Yes once the programming is done it is less labor intense for the latter

But I very much understand what Kevin is saying

And I believe that the Mid Tech term serves well when blades are done in large runs by water jet or CNC

I have learned to appreciate them all

 

[Ernie1980]

It doesn't bother me at all, especially if it means a lower price and consistency. There is still a lot of hard work even if the blade is cut out!

 

[leozinho]

A lot of people have mentioned that using a waterjet to cut the blanks doesn't matter as long as there is transparency (ie. the maker is up front about it.)

But I've looked at a lot of custom makers' websites, and rarely is there any mention of whether the blank was created with waterjetting or roughed out with a grinder, or a bandsaw, etc.

Personally, I don't care about how the blanks are made. I think the reason there is little transparency is because most people don't care either.

 

[betzner]

The wallet does not care about CNC machines or power hammers. It only cares about the END PRODUCT.

 

[Kevin Jones]

My personal definition of a 'Custom Handmade Knife', is one created by hand utilizing only basic hand operated and/or non-sophisticated machinery.

My personal definition of a 'Custom Knife', is a knife that's commissioned which will be different, even if only slightly, from other 'Custom' or production or mass-produced knives.
The knife is primarily created by an individual craftsman/artist however some processes such as embellishment (engraving for example) and/or production tasks (water-jetting, blade hardening) can be done by others.

If you are using fire and a hammer to form your blades
Or a CNC
Both are an art, both are viable ways to make a custom blade
So is water jetting
Yes once the programming is done it is less labor intense for the latter
But I very much understand what Kevin is saying
And I believe that the Mid Tech term serves well when blades are done in large runs by water jet or CNC

I have learned to appreciate them all

I agree Joe and appreciate them all as well and I still stand by my personal definition of Handmade and Custom knives.

 

[Matthew Gregory]

While I personally see no reason for there to be issue with whatever method a maker uses... The idea that utilizing water jet could be a "no-no" just baffles me.

As far as the CNC operation... I actually understand what Kevin is trying to say... I'm just not on the same page. While it's true that programming and operating a CNC machine is not necessarily a knife related skill... It takes a knife maker to do it well and have it apply to knife making.


So a CNC programmer/operator without knife making knowledge/skills is no better off than a blacksmith with no knife making knowledge/skills.

I agree completely with Nick on this.


The level of time and investment in learning and understanding how to program and operate CNC equipment should be reversing the positions of some of the opinions here. The only reason a machine can create parts with accuracy and repeatability is because of the talent and aptitude of the programmer/operator. What most perceive as 'easy' requires an incredible amount of understanding, training and dedication.

 

[aarongough]

Interesting thread, and quite timely as I've been thinking recently about making the leap to midtech.

The move makes sense for me because I hardly ever make one-offs, instead I'm working on multiples of a couple of designs. Consistency between knives of the same design would really offer advantages for both myself and my customers. For me the first benefit that comes to mind is that I get to do more of the stuff I enjoy, ie: design, prototyping and testing as opposed to spending that same time doing repetitive labor.

The first advantage that comes to mind for the customer is that if they lose or damage a sheath I could send them a new one and know it would fit without them having to return their knife. Right now my handles all vary enough that the sheath from one will usually fit another, but retention won't work as expected (all my sheaths are Kydex).

I think different aspects are important to different people. But ultimately when it comes down to it having happy customers is probably the primary thing. I've seen hand-made knives that were of terrible quality. I've seen semi-production knives that were terrible quality...

If the quality is there, and the maker is honest about the processes, then I think it really down to the customer to decide whether the maker's values mesh with their own.

I think having a clear vision of what values are important to you, and expressing those in your knives and in your dealings with customers is more important than anything else.

For instance it's really important to me that I do my own heat-treat as I think it's such a vital part of ensuring quality. I intend to continue taking the same approach if I turn to midtech as well. Having a CNC mill in-house and using it to machine parts is a very different thing for me when opposed to farming parts out to someone else... But as I said above those points are both a reflection of my values and interests, and everyone will be different.

There's plenty of room for every maker and every customer to find their own niche.

 

[sirupatespecial]

Nothing wrong at all with Mid-tech. But somewhere they cease to be "handmade". Busse and Survive come to mind. Emerson and Brous? in folders. Bunch of examples. Great knives. But not handmade. In My Opinion!!

I personally like supporting "the little guys". But heck, you could grow into the next Busse!

 

[AVigil]

I make handmade knives....but I do not always care if a knife is 100% handmade.

My pocket knife is a Case Trapper, I carry a Benchmade button lock and Spyderco as well. If I want a "handmade" folder I know were to get one. When I buy a handmade knife I will pay more for it then a production or midtech blade,of the same type, because of the time and care a craftsman puts into it it personally.

Personally for me using a water jet to profile a blade is not a deal breaker in buying a handmade knife and really a non issue due to profiling being essentially a low skill and anyone can do it. The real craftsmanship comes after the profiling