Is waterjetting a no no in custom handmade knives?

Part of what makes custom knives so awesome is you generally have DIRECT access to the person building it and can find this all out for yourself. The problem is everyone has their own opinion and definition.

If someone gets a rough waterjet blanks of their design and it saves me money over them using a bandsaw, I'm not going to complain. As long as all final shaping, contouring and finishing is done by them, it doesn't bother me.
 
Everyone that sets put to buy a custom or handmade knife gets to decide if an given knife fits the definition they have in their minds.

As long as a Knifemaker is honest about what he does or doesn't do, the customer is free to make that informed choice.

I personally like the Guild's definition. :)
 
About 99% of us buy steel from the mill and did'nt dig and smelt the steel ourselves & use power tools of some sort. So there goes hand made right there if you want to be too picky.

I have my patterns waterjet cut because it sames time, belts & bandsaw blades and send my knives to Paul Bos HT cause I could mess around with HTing for many years and probably not get the consistant excellent results that they do and I choose to spend my time designing making and shaping my blades & handles.

As long as a maker is transparent about what they do and don't do, its all good!!
 
Already had a few Matt Roberts' Bowies.

Won this one in a GAW he had:
Water jetted CPM3V, Peters Heat treat, green micarta.
He called them midtechs.

standard.jpg


Doug
 
Is there a difference between having a shop helper profile blade on a bandsaw or having the profile cut by waterjet?

Chuck
 
Kevin Jones said:
Well there's no denying that water-jetting takes the "Handmade" out of "Custom Handmade Knives". ;)

This has been discussed here from time to time. Without any broadly accepted definition as to exactly what constitutes a "Custom Handmade Knife", there will never be any closure on this topic, just varying opinions.

My personal definition of a 'Custom Handmade Knife', is one created by hand utilizing only basic hand operated and/or non-sophisticated machinery. But then, opinions vary as to what defines or qualifies as 'non-sophisticated' machinery?

My personal definition of a 'Custom Knife', is a knife that's commissioned which will be different, even if only slightly, from other 'Custom' or production or mass-produced knives.
The knife is primarily created by an individual craftsman/artist however some processes such as embellishment (engraving for example) and/or production tasks (water-jetting, blade hardening) can be done by others.
Click to expand...

Other than the requirement for "commissioning" I agree with that. I agree that technically if something is "custom" it suggests a bespoke item. But it seems to me that in general usage, knives like those one might find at AKI would be referred to as "custom knives" even though not a one of them was commissioned.

Maybe we need to invent another word.

Kevin Jones said:
Good point Ben.
Perhaps a water-jetting machine and a power hammer would be an example of the difference between a sophisticated and a non-sophisticated machine and perhaps the difference between a 'custom' and 'custom handmade' knife?
Click to expand...

Perhaps. I would not agree. I think a power hammer is also a sophisticated machine. In fact, I would equate a knife made using a power hammer and a knife made using a CNC machine. I do not think either one should be considered to be truly handmade. To me, handmade means hand forged, hand hammered, hand ground, hand filed, etc.

At the end of the day, the custom aspect is much more important to me than the handmade aspect. Can you tell from the end product with a reasonable amount of eye inspection whether it was handmade or involved a "sophisticated machine?" If not, why does it matter?
 
The Virginian said:
I do not think either one should be considered to be truly handmade. To me, handmade means hand forged, hand hammered, hand ground, hand filed, etc.
Click to expand...
Good luck finding many like that. "Automation" has been used in the production of western blades since at LEAST the High Middle Ages. Would you also insist of a forge that is "powered" only be being positioned on the top of some hill where there is a prevailing wind? ;)
 
jdm61 said:
Good luck finding many like that. "Automation" has been used in the production of western blades since at LEAST the High Middle Ages. Would you also insist of a forge that is "powered" only be being positioned on the top of some hill where there is a prevailing wind? ;)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the history lesson. :rolleyes:

I agree that few knives are what I would consider handmade.

I wrote "to me." I did not "insist" on anything. I offered my own personal interpretation of these terms.

You seem to have a lot of comments on the interpretations that others are posting here which they attach to these terms. Do you have any interpretations of your own that you would care to share?
 
Last edited:
I had a customer about five years ago ask me to make him a knife not using any modern equipment whatsoever and that he also wanted me to make every part from scratch. I quoted him 100K and told him it would take at least 80 years. (I honestly didn't know how long it would take to grow my own Walnut tree, but I figured 80 was pretty close.) I explained that to learn to make my own steel from iron sand, get a charcoal forge set up, make my own hammers and files and drill bits, would take quite a while. I would also have to build a workshop/shed from trees I grew myself too with an axe I'd have to make myself too. Probably also needed to shear wool from my own sheep to make my own clothes. So, yes, I was being ridiculous. And later I made him a regular knife in the way that I normally do. And he was happy - I think.

The ABS has rules about the things that have to go into a knife that has a "J.S." or "M.S." stamp on it and if you were to waterjet-cut a blank instead of forging it, that would be a huge problem. It's nice that we aren't required to smelt our own steel and that I can buy a neat little bar of 1084 and forge a knife out of it, grind a little bit on it, heat treat-it myself and put my stamp on it. I don't have to grow my own wood either. I can buy a nice little block that someone else stabilized. They are pretty reasonable about it in my opinion. And, the customers that are buying a custom J.S. or M.S. knife know what they are getting.

However, for a customer buying a stock-removal knife having a problem with the maker sending it out for water/laser/EDM cutting instead of having him bandsaw it personally, that seems pretty unreasonable.

(edit) ...unless the customer is wanting a one-of-a-kind knife. Generally, knives that are water-cut are exactly the same and you are cutting multiple blanks out of a sheet. I guess it goes back to letting the customer know and decide what they are wanting.
 
Last edited:
Michael Rader said:
I had a customer about five years ago ask me to make him a knife not using any modern equipment whatsoever and that he also wanted me to make every part from scratch. I quoted him 100K and told him it would take at least 80 years. (I honestly didn't know how long it would take to grow my own Walnut tree, but I figured 80 was pretty close.) I explained that to learn to make my own steel from iron sand, get a charcoal forge set up, make my own hammers and files and drill bits, would take quite a while. I would also have to build a workshop/shed from trees I grew myself too with an axe I'd have to make myself too. Probably also needed to shear wool from my own sheep to make my own clothes. So, yes, I was being ridiculous. And later I made him a regular knife in the way that I normally do. And he was happy - I think.

The ABS has rules about the things that have to go into a knife that has a "J.S." or "M.S." stamp on it and if you were to waterjet-cut a blank instead of forging it, that would be a huge problem. It's nice that we aren't required to smelt our own steel and that I can buy a neat little bar of 1084 and forge a knife out of it, grind a little bit on it, heat treat-it myself and put my stamp on it. I don't have to grow my own wood either. I can buy a nice little block that someone else stabilized. They are pretty reasonable about it in my opinion. And, the customers that are buying a custom J.S. or M.S. knife know what they are getting.

However, for a customer buying a stock-removal knife having a problem with the maker sending it out for water/laser/EDM cutting instead of having him bandsaw it personally, that seems pretty unreasonable.

(edit) ...unless the customer is wanting a one-of-a-kind knife. Generally, knives that are water-cut are exactly the same and you are cutting multiple blanks out of a sheet. I guess it goes back to letting the customer know and decide what they are wanting.
Click to expand...

I would like to place an order for one of your $100 K knives but with Bog Oak handle scales. :)
 
Last edited:
If we are judging the amount of "handmadeness" in a hand made knife, I think there are orders of magnitude in an ascending scale from start to finish. That is to say, how you start off, is a lot less important than how you finish.

Say 10 knife makers start off with the same material. Process Steps 1,2,3,........to.............Finished product. All the knives would be unique to the individual builder, his skills, and vision. How things got started would just be a foot note.
 
Generally, I am okay with idea of disclosure that has been discussed in this thread. With that said, it does get bit fuzzy if you have someone else grind your bevels. I will leave it up to the rest of the guys to decide how to treat knives where the maker programs the CNC mill that is in his shop. Where it gets even funnier is in the case of shops like Randall or Ruana. I think that you could make a very colorable argument that either of those firms would qualify under the ABS rules IF each employee did the entire process from start to finish. Of course, they do not, but aren't these "bench made" knives as some call them, actually MORE handmade than say a folder made with the help of say even a non CNC Bridgeport mill?
The Virginian said:
Thanks for the history lesson. :rolleyes:

I agree that few knives are what I would consider handmade.

I wrote "to me." I did not "insist" on anything. I offered my own personal interpretation of these terms.

You seem to have a lot of comments on the interpretations that others are posting here which they attach to these terms. Do you have any interpretations of your own that you would care to share?
Click to expand...
 
Michael Rader- your words are a joy and inspiration to read. You've nailed it like none other in your post:thumbup:
as for the bog oak comment, that's fucking priceless:D
 
Yeah, Bruce, start saving your nickels. I just tossed a chunk of oak in a drainage ditch near my house. We'll talk in 1000 years or so. Don't flake on me, Dude :-)

See ya in a few weeks, Lorien.... and everyone else.
 
Back on topic... So, doesn't it really all boil down to what the customer wants? If a customer wants something hand-forged, he should say so. You know, this reminds me, has anyone seen that show "How things are made" where actual robots that wheel around and grind to make kitchen knives are used in a big factory? Freaky. Puts things in perspective. (Can someone link that episode? - I forget what knife company that was.)
 
Last edited:
Yea, it boils down to what the customer wants. But if you advertise "custom, handmade knives" and you use pre-made and ground blanks and you add a handle then I believe that is unethical. I have no problem with stock removal to make a knife. Just don't advertise it as hand forged. Sure, it was forged at one time, by someone. I just assume(and you know what that can mean) that if knives sold here don't say hand forged then they are stock removal. Or yea, machined;)

Honest disclosure is about all anyone can ask. I haven't seen any knifemaker here on the forum that I would say is other than honest. I sure have seen some/many online tho.

It doesn't make a difference to me whether the maker H/T his own blades or not. Many here disclose if they do it or send it out. Might make a difference to others. Really, I would think a business specializing in H/T would be more consistent and give the maker time to do what he does.

Is it OK to buy Micarta or do you need to make it yourself? Wood bought finished and stabilized? So many questions....So far I'm very happy with all of the makers I have seen here. Well, most all anyway:D! Gotta keep'em guessing.......
 
My opinion, alot of people take "custom" way
to far and alot of the prices for knives from
Custom or "handmade" makers are outrageous..
Example 2000 dollars for a microtech..wtf is that?
Guaranteed those knives are all made using top
Notch machines ect..so, I guess it doesnt matter
how said knife is made..people will pay for it
Apparently reguardless.
 
As Carl Sagan famously said, "If you wish to make apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe."



Bruce Bump said:
I would like to place an order for one of your $100 K knives but with Bog Oak handle scales. :)
Click to expand...

One with Mammoth for me please, dagger blade
 
Last edited:
Awwww, man!!! Mammoth - really?
Okay, rigging up my homemade-DNA-sequencing machine right now...
Got to re-read Jurassic Park...
I'm on it, guys!!!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top