It seems Cold Steel is now in the blatant ripoff business

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When the Spyderco Civilian was in its earliest stages of design development a guy named Ernie Franco, who was both a tool & die expert as well as knife designer and internationally known/respected martial artist (and contributing editor to Fighting Knives Magazine), was given the opportunity by Spyderco to review/evaluate the design.

He wasn't too impressed and told me so, as well as why.

Ernie was a trusted and valued friend / confidant to Lynn Thompson at CS. Franco was one of the very few who truly knew and understood Thompson, and whom Thompson felt comfortable with and - in return - truly respected. Ernie worked with Lynn on a number of early CS designs and was an influential member of the CS team.

My editorial -

I'm sure Ernie discussed the Civilian in at least general terms with CS and his input was most likely hesitant about the Civilian blade design and concept. This was years ago now. That CS has released the "Talon" at this stage of the hooked blade genre is interesting to me because the genre enjoyed its heyday in the mid-90s and not much beyond. FK promoted the Civilian long before any other cutlery rag took to doing so, and in fact it graces the cover of my sentry removal video from Paladin Press - as well as being featured as part of the video which was the first time the Civilian was so presented in instruction.

FK also promoted follow on hook or "claw" blades from makers such as Emerson, Elishiwitz, and other makers who entered this very verticle market with products and designs of their own. Again, CS stayed way away from this area until (apparently) now.

In looking at the Talon I see some immediate differences in blade design and features. Also, the handle is significantly different than the Civilian or its cousins as noted. Thompson is keen on taking some designs and making them better in terms of Cold Steel's vision of what "better" is. They have never hidden this fact, and in many cases - such as with the Trailmaster Bowie and SRK - their efforts have paid off handsomely. Take the push dagger for instance. No one does this very traditional / old design and concept better than CS where specialty production bladeware is concerned.

Hook-blade tactical folders are specialty knives in and of themselves. One needs to train differently with them due to the unique attributes and capabilities of the valid designs available. The Civilian / Matriarch are - as I have stated before in the public record and in accordance with Ernie Franco's insights as shared with me - only good as extremely aggressive H2H designs. Spyderco knew this going into the model, and took the pain of titling the model "The Civilian" to soften the blade design's image and capabilities. Same holds true with the "Matriarch".

Talon tactical folders, which is what these really are (Don't all God's creatures have claws?) have been around in specialty and handmade form for nearly a decade now. Cold Steel's entry into the field is both late in the game and frankly fairly quiet. Thompson generally does his firm's homework ref: patents and such pretty carefully, and I wouldn't be surprised if he hadn't spoken with Sal at Spyderco long before now and chatted about bringing out the CS Talon in lieu of the Civilian's long time and now 4th or 5th generation in the market place.

And it was always my experience that when Sal is approached like this he's generally receptive and even encouraging.

I'll have to find a way to get ahold of a CS Talon now. Having worked with the Civilian from it's pre-release inception, and co-designed a hook blade with Alan Elishiwitz (The Parrot's Beak), and having a Matriarch here in the "desert cutlery tool box", and having carried a wide variety of both fixed and folding "Civilian" style blades over the past 10 or so years, I'm kinda thrilled to see Thompson jump into the fray with something he feels is "new and improved" aka Cold Steel.

I wonder what Ernie would say?

GW
KU
 
Didn't Emerson make a reverse S blade a few years ago? A CQC9 or something? I guess all hawkbills rip off the merlin/harpy. Maybe when the patent runs out, Spyderco will get it trademarked like the hole. :rolleyes:
 
While it's true that the CQC9's blade design is SIMILAR, IMHO it is different enough in design, purpose, and angle that it is, at the very least, not a BLATANT ripoff.

Besides... the CQC9 has the Spyderhole, which must've been liscensed by Spyderco, so it'd make sense to assume that Sal knew about the blade design of the CQC9 and "authorized" that aswell (assuming HE felt it to be similar enough to be an issue). It's not an infraction.
 
Thanx for the patent stuff, Harry.

Hi Greg. Thanx for the history lesson. Hope things are going well for you. You ought to visit the Spyderco forum in the mfrs section. Lots of folks there might enjoy your "history". You were one of the few that noticed Spyderco in the early years.

Actually, my friend, Lynn Thompson carried a Civilian in his pocket every day for more than 10 years before he made his own "copy". I've not yet spoken with Lynn on this issue, been pretty busy. He must be hurtin' for designs.

My friend, Spencer Frazier (SOG) carried a "Harpy" in his pocket for 10 years before he "discovered" the opening hole in a "Scagel design".

funny industry.

sal
 
I want a Black Talon (plain edge).I don't like CS serrated edges.I also have Civilian and Merlin.What is the big deal? Cold Steel knives suck? Only if I have one stuck in me.
 
Hi, Sal -

Greetings from Kuwait:)

Thanks for the history lesson regarding my support of Spyderco beginning long before most others in the cutlery/entertainment business of publishing did or would. It was easy. The product was and remains both original and functional. However, it was Al Mar who turned me on to Spyderco, educated me on the Spyderco thought process, and always endorsed you with the weight of his own name and reputation as being among the best.

And there-in lies the "history" of it;)

Yes, it is funny industry. The one thing I always noted about Al was that he never in the public forum admonished any of his peers for real or perceived infringements or "oversights" where his own designs and work and help and advice and support were concerned. More than a few designers and makers benefited from private conversations and faxed drawings back and forth with Al. I know. Saw some, heard some, and thought it was a great attribute of Mar's. He could "fix" something design wise in an instant...and merrily do so because it gave him great pleasure to help out an aspiring maker, designer, or friend.

Quick story - when Al would go to Japan they often gave a gathering where young Japanese (primarily) cutlery designers could meet him, and share their drawings with him. He'd doodle little suggestions on the drawings, or redraw a line or curve, or otherwise help as he could. He never charged anything, or asked for credit, or pointed out his involvement if and when the "original" design became a real product.

He was just that way.

He also knew that in many cases the young designers actually worked for the Japanese cutlery industry...and when the party was over the "bosses" would gather up the "independent" designs from their undercover employees and use Al's freely given creativity for their own benefit.

He never let on that he knew...but he shared this story with me.

Al valued his friends and was honored when they carried his knives. He was tickled when he could help them become more successful, if only by giving quiet advice, an encouraging nod, or one of those great AL MAR smiles of his:)

And those weren't patented.

Al used to tell me there was nothing new in cutlery design under the sun. Only those old things rediscovered and improved upon coming from everything around us. I believe he was right then, and remains right today. Genius is the art of reaching back in order to press forward.

Love my Matriarch which is here with me. Lost my Harpy after giving it to a fellow officer who then tossed it to another officer one night who used it in an effort to save two other trapped officers (vehicle accident/overturn into a nearby body of water). That officer dropped the knife in the water during the rescue effort (on purpose, had no time to close and secure it). One officer lived, the other died. A tough night for those guys.

Finally, a little note about Sal from Greg for the Forum Folk.

Early on Sal placed me on his collector club list. Every so often - and it was often - I'd get a box or sometimes two from Spyderco. New knife, and with my own collector number engraved on it. It was Christmas every time these little gems arrived. A gesture of friendship and respect from Sal & Company.

After Fighting Knives was closed down the Spyderco boxes kept coming. Many, and I mean MANY others in the cutlery industry whom I'd met, befriended, promoted, and in more than a few cases made a lot of $$ for via the magazine, quit calling/writing. Understandable. After all it IS a business.

But not Sal. The little collector boxes kept coming and during the tough times of career change and everything that goes with it getting a new knife from Spyderco with nothing asked for back truly brightened my day.

Finally, however, I asked Sal to take me off his collector list. I couldn't do anything for him anymore in the cutlery field, and felt he should free up my collector number and the product for better ends. I asked...and asked...and asked. And the darned little boxes kept coming. Finally I asked REAL HARD and in such a manner that I knew Sal understood how much his kindness, graciousness, and concern / friendship meant to me.

The little boxes stopped arriving but the friendship and respect kept going.

No one was looking, but Sal didn't care. He's always been at the height of his game when the spotlight was off him:D

Which was what made him special enough to Al Mar to recommend Spyderco Knives to a young hopeful in the cutlery magazine trade named "Greg Walker".

Be safe, Sal. May good things and good fortune always travel at your side.

GW
KU - 2003
 
Al Mar is/was truly one of the greats in the knife industry. I was one of those that Al helped along the way. He helped me with the designs, the locks, the materials. He introducd me to my vendors in Japan and guided me each step of the way. Without Al Mar, there probably would not have been a Spyderco Clipit in the first place.

He set the standard, he "invented" the small Specialty knife companies, He pushed the envelope and added beauty to creativity. I still miss him.

Al and Lynn had their differences, but even Lynn was influenced by Al Mar. He helped all of the new guys, Spencer, Lester, me and a few others, and we're all still friends as well as competitors. He encouraged us to dare to be creative and "shared his knowledge". One of those "threshholds" that an industry evolves to.

I'd also like to put in a plug for Gary Fadden, who is now extending his best effort to regrowing the Al Mar knife Conpany. Good designs, good quality, integrity in the Al Mar tradition.

sal
 
Just a comment,

Seems like there is a lot of "idea sharing" going around in this industry and I think that is great. Clearly an attitude of helping each other out. Guess I'm a bit confused about it when the patents come into play.

Let me clarify. Patent strategy, managing, writing and evaluating patents is what I do for a living. Different industry, we use mostly utility patents rather than design patents. Haven't examined the patents Harry posted in much detail but...

My confusion is this. Why patent something if you're not going to enforce it, or if prior art out there makes it questionable? Patents are expensive! At least in my industry (semiconductors, computer chips, etc.) it can cost $12-15,000 just to get a patent in the U.S. One of my jobs is to make sure the patents our company invests in are the "right ones". There does tend to be much less information sharing in my industry. How do cutlery companies go about making these judgments where "nothing is new in cutlery design under the sun"?

I admire the attitude Greg has described that Al Mar and others exhibit. I'm just wondering - why spend money on getting the patents then? Are they playing a role in licensing, marketing, industry recognition, etc.? Those are certainly all valid uses for a patent beyond the "legal sledge hammer". Patent litigation is VERY expensive - and I can tell you - not our first choice when dealing with patent problems. Still, in the end, one needs to consider what the patent will be used for, what it will gain and cost the company, to know whether investing in a patent (and implicitly investing in the defense of that patent) is worthwhile.

Just my perspective.
 
Although the blade looks like a Spyderco the handle has a definite SOG look it.

As for Al Mar, I didn't know him but he sounds like he was a pretty good guy.
 
Damn! I cant believe that ColdSteel would do such a thing(ripoff Spyderco). They should have ripped off Emerson:mad:
Man!That thing is UGLY.:barf:
 
Agree with the patent opinion expressed earlier.

And, in my opinion based on watching this evolution come about in the cutlery industry, it is primarily a litigation tool...in an industry where the vast majority of participants (mostly custom makers) don't have the resources or the schooling or the interest to fight a war over a knife lock, knife name, and so on with someone who does.

This is one of the primary reasons the cutlery industry ceased being "fun" in the early 90s.

Another Al Mar story to illustrate the better days.

Al began making the "Pathfinder" bush knife. It wasn't a huge seller but it was a beautiful piece of steel. A period of time passed and Gary Randall of Randall Knives called Al. Gary, whose family and Al had been friends for years and years, shared with Al that Randall had been offering a Randall "Pathfinder" for some time. Gary asked if Al would change the name of his product so as not to possibly confuse a buyer or client out there. Al responded in the positive and with great dignity and concern for Randall Knives. The AMK "Pathfinder" became the AMK "Quest".

Used to be this was how things were done in the US custom and production and specialty cutlery industry. Gentlemen behaving as craftsmen and artisans. Old School. A better school.

Today everyone copywrites and patents everything from knife names to locks to you name it. And they hunt each other without mercy, sending letters back and forth between lawyers and decrying each other in both public and private.

It doesn't have to be this way, shouldn't be this way, and was never this way to begin with.

However, it IS the way it is now and it won't change. If anything, it'll get worse and more infantile.

So truly, truly sad.

Kudos to those who strive to remain Gentlemen.

Postscript: Gary Fadden at AMK has overcome/achieved a noteworthy objective. More so than most know. I agree with Sal. However, more noteworthy is that AMK now reflects - 100% - the commitment to excellence and quality and originality that Gary Fadden himself has made a personal and professional standard for many years, whether at H&K, Beretta, or anywhere else fortunate to have enjoyed him as an employee. Gary and his lovely bride ARE Al Mar Knives. And that is way, way cool

:)

GW
KU
 
Perhaps someone might know...

How is Al's Widow and Daughter?

I met Al and his Daughter the one year SOF had their convention in Florida. I doubt that she would now remember, but I think I was 16 at the time. Meeting them made a lasting impression on me and I would like to know if they are doing well.

If anyone knows (Greg :D) a "one liner" as to how they are doing would be nice...

Thanks
 
Because the Buck 110 has become such a mainstream design, ripoffs are to be expected... plus I think it's patent ran out quite some time ago.

However, the Civilian design is arguably "far more unique" and it's patent is still very much in effect.
 
Greg,

I agree. Kudos indeed to those who try to remain gentlemen. Sadly, this is not an uncommon scenario, where the big guy tromps on the little (more innovative) guy. This was NOT what the patent system was intended to do. Just the opposite, in fact. Speaking from the little guy's perspective, there ARE many things one can do to stand up to the bigger guy. Even with limited resources. As long as one has the knowledge and interest in doing so. I won't lie and say money doesn't matter - but there is a lot that can be done if you approach it properly, that requires less money, at least.

I have read and re-read Greg's comments. I'd like to offer my free advice to anoyone out there who wants a bit of help with this - eg. the little guys. Just feel like it's something I should do. Please note, I am NOT an attorney. I am a business manager whose job it is to know patent, trademark and copyright law.

Anyway, for any interested, feel free to contact me.

Dan

PS Greg, stay safe in Kuwait!
 
Hi Dan, I cannot speak for the entire knife industry, but I can explain to some of the reasoning behind patents in the knife industry.

your comment;
"My confusion is this. Why patent something if you're not going to enforce it, or if prior art out there makes it questionable? Patents are expensive! At least in my industry (semiconductors, computer chips, etc.) it can cost $12-15,000 just to get a patent in the U.S. One of my jobs is to make sure the patents our company invests in are the "right ones". There does tend to be much less information sharing in my industry. How do cutlery companies go about making these judgments where "nothing is new in cutlery design under the sun"?

I admire the attitude Greg has described that Al Mar and others exhibit. I'm just wondering - why spend money on getting the patents then? Are they playing a role in licensing, marketing, industry recognition, etc.? Those are certainly all valid uses for a patent beyond the "legal sledge hammer". Patent litigation is VERY expensive - and I can tell you - not our first choice when dealing with patent problems. Still, in the end, one needs to consider what the patent will be used for, what it will gain and cost the company, to know whether investing in a patent (and implicitly investing in the defense of that patent) is worthwhile.

-----------------------------------------------------

There is certainly quite a bit that is "new under the sun" in the cutlery industry. Knife technology and innovation is experiencing a round of evolution, beginning in the early '80's and is still continueing. Just look at the number of new patents. Naturally prior art would and does stop much application.

We share common information such as" Lester asked me about S30V, because we've done extensive testing. I have no problem letting him know results. Patentable ideas are kept more private until applied for. We might also license each other for some ideas. There, utility patents have more merit. I'm sure that Cold Steel and Spyderco will come to some equitable agreement. We have in the past. Lynn Thompson has demonstrated honor on more than one occassion that might surprize you.

This is legitimate competition and we are all aware of each other.

Knock offs are more what we are fighting, being very low cost "copies" of popular designs. Here, the game changes.

So we patent anything that we think "might" be copied. We don't even know if it will be popular, but we cannot apply for patents after learning of its popularity. We kind of have to "bite the bullet" and make decisions without knowledge.

In some cases, it's actually the design patent that carries more weight because often the "Knock off" company really isn't interested in the utility, only that the product look like the popular one (this would not be common in your industry).

Because patent litigation is so expensive, the decision must again be made, if the idea is copied whether or not it was worth the potential cost. We have had a fair amount of experience in this in the past 20 years. Probably hours of discusion, but in private.

The "legal sledgehammer" doesn't always work. a glitch in the patent, a loophole in the wording that permits the copy to prevail. We just disco'd two models that were copied by another well known company and offered at fractional prices. We learned (after many dollars) that they were riding on a loophole and they also had more money to "waste" than we did.

We've learned that trademarks have strength often greater than patents.

If one doesn't invest in the patent (utility or design), then one has no recourse.

If one has a patent or a patent pending, most of the legitimate competition will honor it. 90% of the illegitimate competion will also look at it, because they don't want the headache of litigation.

the remaining 10% are often a problem. They are big enough or strong enough to fight, even if they are morally wrong. We chased one company making Chinese copies for years. They changed addresses, names, owners, etc. Eventually they were nabbed by customs, but even then, the copies are not stopped.

As you can see, each situation has its own set of "rules". Cold Steel is less of a problem; we can discuss it. They put their name on their product. On the other hand, "Eagle" brand is put on any Chinese copy made by any factory. There is no Eagle brand, who do you chase?

Knife design and innovation is prime in the knife industry. Quality must be added for long term success. As more and more companies join in, the difficulty increases.

sal
 
Sal,

this is getting a little off-topic (but since it was my topic originally, perhaps I will be granted the perogative).

Anywho, I know you previously said that the Dyad was one of the models that got axed because of knockoffs (not sure what the other model was), but I can't help but wonder... why discontinue a model just because someone copies it? I mean... why not just keep selling your model to those who appreciate REAL quality and are willing to pay for it? Or is the knife market really so heavily driven by ignorant fools who just care about how it looks that you can't afford to keep a model in production that won't sell for it's "uniqueness" quotient?
 
Just wanted to say thank you for posting. Many threads that I have read here give good information but many times the majority of opinions are that opinions. to see someone post(especially at your position) who is in the fray of these particular decisions shed a seldom seen light.
Your response gave me a much better insigght where I have little to no knowledge but a lot of curiosity.
Thanks again.
Travis
 
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