It seems Cold Steel is now in the blatant ripoff business

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Sal's position re: patents and the process / reasoning Spyderco relies upon in this area is objective.

Others out there are not so if past and current events are any idicator.

Regardless, it is sad this once graceful cottage industry - both custom and production - has "evolved" to the point it has where this "stuff" has to be so considered.

As for knock-offs, particularly those being executed overseas in countries where a U.S. legal presence is often scoffed at and, at the very least, exceedingly expensive to enforce, the good gained is surely balanced each day against the good lost. And there are both US and European, not to mention Japanese, cutlery companies happily doing business in these same countries precisely due to the much lower labor and production costs, hence potentially higher profit margins back in their more lucrative markets.

Al Mar was a pioneer of the "Made in Taiwan" specialty cutlery market as early as 1990/1991. The challenge was skilled labor and machinery, plus changing the perception that "Made in Taiwan" was somehow lesser than "Made in Japan". Much of the move to Taiwan is linked to the shrinking pool of skilled cutlery labor in Japan due to the change in that country's world econonmy (old knife labor retiring / dying and young knife labor not interested and capable of making more $$ in the hi-tech fields in Japan) and the cost of making knives in Japan today as opposed to the 70s and 80s. It was the Japanese cutlery industry who - with excellent planning and funding -strove to create a quality cutlery industry (transplanted from Japan) to Taiwan. Others from the US have likewise entered and supported this move, while even more have entertained the Chinese mainland as the place to have their knives made.

However, these same places likewise enjoy knocking off established products across the board, as stories in Jane's law enforcement journal "International Police Review" for which I wrote for was so good at reporting on.

In any event I liked the the "olden" days in the cutlery business a lot more. And if asked I believe most out there so involved and remembering of those days would agree.

Hey, anyone seen the excellent knives being made in Turkey? They are awesome...and darned reasonable in price.

GW
KU
 
Sal,

Very good information! It's true, we don't have to worry about the "cheap knock-offs" in our industry as much as you guys do. I'd say that the 90% who honor patents vs. 10% who don't is about the same.

You guys have clearly had plenty of experience in this - so you may have already thought about it - but what about filing provisional patents? You mentioned it's difficult to know what people might want to copy, so you just have to use your best judgement and "bite the bullet." I think anyone who deals with patents has to face this issue (I guess that's a good thing - otherwise I wouldn't have a job :D ).

Seriously - one thing we have done to deal with this problem is file provisional applications. They are darn cheap ($80 filing fee with the USPTO plus attorney costs) - and give you "patent pending" status. You've got a year after filing the provisional to decide if you want to go for the expense of the whole patent. This lets you put the product out on the market and see what the response is, before investing in the patent.

Provisionals are especially good for (in our case) innovative stuff that you don't know whether or not will be accepted in the market. If you've already got something you know people will want - you can go straight to the full-blown thing.

The other advantage of provisionals is that you don't need as much information in them as you do for a full-blown application. You just have to be careful and remember that for the patent to cite back to the provisional filing date, there can be no new information. That is, your provisional must be complete enough (diagrams, etc.) to cover your product. Provisionals DO NOT require claims, however. Just a non-legal, technical description of the invention. This is one reason provisionals are so cheap - don't require much attorney time.

I figure you guys have already considered this - but I thought I'd throw it out there just in case.

One thing I really love about the forums is getting to talk with people like you and Greg, Ethan Becker, etc.
 
Hi Cutter. In plastic handled knives, the difference in quality is not as apparent, especially in the showcase of a store or a picture on the net. We eventually dropped the model because we could see decreasing sales and the "double the price" model now becomes a "hard sell" to the average store. Most storekeepers and most "walk in" customers are not knife nuts. It's hard top justify the extra expense (double) for a product when one is unaware of differences like steel selection.

Dan, Thanx for the input. At this time most of our current applications are provisional. All in all, your input offering as a professional is useful to makers and ELUs alike, and is much appreciated.

Thank you Travis. "Have knowledge, will share". (in the Al Mar tradition).

Knock offs, copies, heavily influenced models, etc, will not go away. If one considers that about 10% of companies have the good fortune to be innovative, the rest must buy designs, copy or go out of business. At Spyderco, we are fortunate to be in the 10% capable of innovation. Add quality and caring and we have sufficient horsepower to survive without compromising integrity. I will admit that there is probably a lot more money to be made in the copies. I guess that my parents and teachers influence was strong enough to keep values at a higher plane.

remember, we were the guys that invented pocket clips and one hand openers. We realized long ago the difficulty of keeping innovation private.

sal
 
One thing overlooked in this discussion is "Just how well does the CS "Black Talon" stand up to the tried and true originals such as the Civilian or Matriarch?"

Cold Steel is a specialty cutlery company with a long history of above average products. So is Spyderco. If CS comes out with something that looks very much like a Spyderco thought process / product, it is then up to real world evaluators aside from either CS or Spyderco to check things out.

I'd enjoy a one-on-one comparison test between the Talon and the Civilian, for example. Pros? Cons? Advantages? Disadvantages? Strengths? Weaknesses? Likes? Dislikes?

The Forum is a good place for such comparisons, or the cutlery magazines could ante up and have one of their more objective field writers who is familiar with the blade pattern and overall concept do a side-by-side test. Doesn't even have to be "winners and losers". Can be simply a provision of objective information and YOU get to draw your own conclusions.

All the other stuff is just "stuff". Let the buyer either beware or be educated in why one choice might meet his or her needs over another.

Hey Steve Dick / Tactical Knives - how about you guys stepping up to the plate on this one?

Ad campaigns, marketing campaigns, and lawyers sending letters back and forth doesn't tell the Consumer how good, or bad, or indifferent two knives may be performance wise. And performance means sales and sales mean success for the originator of the better product.

Plus consumer confidence and happiness.

Sal - is the Gunting going to stay in the Spyderco line or be drawn down / phased out? Bram sent me a CRIMPIT and tape and I thought well of both. Haven't seen a live Gunting and have heard you may be doing some reconsideration on this one. Did see where you have brought the LUM tanto fixed blade out. That is great, great decision. Lum's Chinese Leaf folder from Spyderco is simply beautiful (I saw one of the first ones at home when I ran into Bob while shopping one day).

One thing I can tell ya, guyz - sand in a sheath or scabbard (the really fine, fine stuff that gets in no matter what you do) will take the edge off a knife in a heartbeat. Glad I brought my ages-old Spyderco ceramic sticks kit with me...and a DMT diamond hone! Yuk!!!

GW
KU
 
Greg,

Good points. Just curious - what knives do you have out there with you?


Also - I've read your book on the Ka-Bar next generation Fighting knife - have one of them myself and I love it! It's my standard knife in the field. I've seen several criticisms on the Forum about these knives though and was thinking maybe you could give your input. How strong is that stick tang - really? Not that I plan on doing much prying with it or anything, but I'd like your perspective on why they didn't go to a skeletonized full tang like the BK7.

What about their decision to keep the fuller? Was that more "cosmetic", or did they have a real reason for it? And finally, the new next generation knives are in epoxy-coated 440A now, rather than Sandvik 12C27. Any idea why they changed steels, and went to the epoxy coating vs. the passivated blades?

Good luck over there with all that sand!:)

Dan
 
With just a cursorary view, I think the thing is a knock-off, hands down. And of all of the knives to rip-off, they pick a lousy one with little actual use in the real world. Unless, of course, you're TTO and you have some biceps to slice.

What nobody has mentioned (I believe) is not only did they rip-off the design, they ripped-off the name.

"Black Talon" was the name of an agressive hollow-point design in combat ammunition circa 1995. Bad press made the manufacturer pull it, but they replaced it with a design that worked the same, it just looked different (tee-hee). If memory serves, and again, I'm 52 years old, I believe that design is now marketed as "Ranger."

If I was going to steal something, it wouldn't be a crummy design with a discreditted name.
 
Dan -

From what I was told after the fact there were some problems with heat treating in the first run and some knives with improper heat treat snapped at the juncture between the tang and the guard. This happened with one of the knives sent me by KA-BAR when they first came out.

Stuff happens, and KA-BAR corrected it.

The fuller is cosmetic and helps maintain that traditional KA-BAR signature design blade-wise.

I haven't followed the design for some time now. I imagine the change in steels is as likely a cost-effective measure as anything else. Important to remember is that the project was - as noted in my book on it - one man's dream who'd worked for KA-BAR for years and ultimately retired from the firm. Bob Reinschrieber made the 21st Century Fighting Knife happen, and once he retired the sole person who could and would protect the original thought processes was gone.

It's a great knife, and I'm very proud to have been asked by Bob to help make it happen.

As for what I have and will carry over here I've touched on that in past postings. If and when - I'll choose what was the best tool/weapon for the job and report on it after we're all home safe and sound.

Postscript -

For those interested in the combo knife book Paladin and I were discussing (Battle Blades + Training of a Knife Fighter) I've elected not to pursue that project. Paladin also asked about a compilation book reflecting the best of Fighting Knives / Full Contact magazines. Again, I have elected not to pursue such a project. All these efforts were wonderful, productive, and positive. However, they are likewise history and should be allowed to take their place in that catagory.

Next year I will have a book on Leadership coming out from a major NY publishing firm as co-written with Dr. George Thompson of the Verbal Judo Institute, and soon thereafter a follow-on book to "At the Hurricane's Eye - US Special Operations Forces from Vietnam to Desert Storm" which I wrote after Desert Storm 1 (Random House/Ivy Books 1994).

For those who follow the Rogue Warrior series I'm pleased to share Dick Marcinko wrote me a few months ago to express his satisfaction with how "Violence of Action" is doing. It was meant as a good cross-over effort for Dick and he presently is working with (to my understanding) a new co-author on the next installment in the series.

Whew!

Dan, thanks for asking -

GW
KU
 
What a great thread this turned out to be. From very humble beginnings it has become one of the more informative threads I have read in quite awhile. Thanks for all the info Greg, Sal and Dan.
 
Thanks for sharing too! :)

Be safe, come home soon, and let's talk AMK SERE's when you get the chance. Roger that on Gary Fadden, our talk at KnifeExpo, as well as that with Scott Moore, shows that a historical profile of the AMK SERE model development shows promise.

Agreed, CS does have some great designs, and are our choice for camp/truck knives...a product well done.

Sal, thanks for sharing as well. Though we don't know each other, I've been a staunch proponant of Sypderco's as a EDC for nearly 10 years now, mailing off yet another one as a gift tonight. Your insight and thoughts are well received here.

To all those that posted here with thought, thanks for your input too, yet another great BFC thread!

Mel
 
Hey Harry, thanx for the patent link, also, I might add that there are 2 design patents on the "Reverse S" design in addition to the utility patent.

Greg, correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but are you suggesting that the value of intellectual property can be affected by the quality of the copy?

Personally, I would be surprized if Steven Dick would get involved in such a comparison. Steven Dick "discovered" Spyderco before any other writer in America. 1984 Canoe Magazine article. Even before you Greg. Whether one agrees with his opinion or not, IMO, Steven has more class than to entertain such a comparision, at least until after the "intellectual property" issues are sorted out.

The "reverse S" (Civilian) is my design. There has not been anything quite like it made before and in my opinion, the black Talon is a copy. The shape itself, as mentioned, is unique and synonomous with Spyderco.

Perhaps Lynn has found a patent loophole in all 3 patents, or perhaps he thought they expired, we'll see. I haven't heard from him yet. Lynn and I are both "gentlemen", and I think we'll sort it out. We still prefer to promote "honor, integrity and fair play" in the Al Mar tradition.

Regardinbg the Gunting, we are in the middle of some engineering adjustments. Previous production has been difficult to manufacture due to necessary "tweaking" on each piece. They worked well once "tweaked", but mfg time was high. Production is behind as we sort out these problems. Trainers are available and Crmipts are shipping to Bram as he orders them. "Lives" are still 4-6 weeks away.

sal
 
Sal,

I don't want to speak for Greg, but I don't think that's what he was saying. Anyway, clearly it is not the case that a copy can influence the value of the IP - as long as the IP is enforced! The choice, however, not to defend IP in the face of a copy, can devalue the IP. Certainly if other competitors are aware of the situation. In fact, such a decision can devalue not only the specific patent, but the entire IP of the company.

As far as loopholes go, I haven't examined the patents so I couldn't say.

You have made it clear that you plan on contacting Cold Steel about the issue. Thus Spyderco is not simply letting the issue slide. Confronting IP issues on a business to business approach is always preferable to the legal approach, IMO, and should be the first thing one tries to do. If a business solution (licensing, etc.) to an IP conflict can be found, the overall value of a company's IP is clearly maintained (arguably even increased - IBM is a prime example). You don't necessarily need to go to court. But you need to be willing to go to court.

Here is the scenario I think Greg was talking about - again at the risk of speaking for him. Let's say that Company A invents and patents something. Company B comes out with a copy which violates company A's patent. Company A does nothing to defend it's IP. It turns out that the copy performs better than the original. Market forces end up granting the copy more sales than the original.

Here's a slight variation. Same thing, only this time, Company A forces Company B to license their patent for some upfront fee, plus 10% of all sales on the copy (and all derivatives) Company B makes. Again, let's assume the copy is better quality than the original. Even if market forces push sales of Company A's product down, Company A still reaps the benefit of Company B's (competitive) sales. The value of Company A's IP is maintained, even if the value of their product isn't. The IP itself has a clear value. PLus, maybe Company A can learn something in manufacturing techniques from their competitor.

I'm not trying to suggest Cold Steel quality is better than Spyderco. I'm just giving some examples of what I think Greg may be referring to.

Dan
 
Pshh...I say "big freaking whoop" to what Cold Steel does. Spyderco is still the best in my book. Anyone that thinks like I do will just overlook it and go for the quality.
 
Sal,

This is just a personal aside, but after seeing all this, I doubt I'll be buying any Cold Steel products. We've had our products copied from time to time as well. Even when a solution can be worked out, it's a headache at the least. :( I don't want to support a company which copys others and violates others patents. Even if they do "generally" have good quality products.

I didn't mention it in the previous post, but if Company A has an equal or betterproduct than Company B and force Company B to License their patent, Company A comes out a double winner, both in the market and through licensing. This is the strategy IBM has pursued, very successfully. They have several BILLION every year in licensing revenue.

IP financial value and product sales value are supplemental. In most cases sales of the product has more monetary value than the IP - but not always.

IP value has two components, however, and financial value is only one of them. The other we generally term "technology value". There are ways to measure this. Often technology value of IP is equal to the monetary value of product sales. It turns out most companies have many more "intangible assets" than they realize. Capitalizing on these intangible assets can be the difference between a good company and a great company.

OK, probably more than you wanted to know...

Dan
 
Thanx, Dan. Thanx for the explanation. Gregg and I go back a long way and the concept was confusing to me. Not his usual style of pushing the honor role.

In the knife industry, it has been out experience that the copies, which are usually much cheaper, will ultimately sell far greater quantities than the original. We've seen the sales affected each time we're copied.

In the case of the Civilian, we've always limited production and kept sales more to Law Enforcement Professionals and Knife nuts. Our reasoning was to keep the "gangs" from using them and giving the knife industry and Spyderco a bad rap.

Should we end up licensing Cold Steel on this item, they will no doublt sell far more than we ever would have tried to sell. Our purpose in creating and producing the Civilian was survicing a particular market, not making mnoney.

I appreciate your boycott of Cold Steel based on Integrity issues. Your point of view is more rare than one might think.

Hey Gregg. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I get "out there" sometimes. I think that it is good that I can openly ask you reasons for your thought, and you've always been very good at communicating them.

Take care of youyrself out there. We have others in Kuwait that we are also commuicating with regularly and we pray for your safety.

sal
 
This has been great thread with far more discussed/presented on the subject of patents, intellectual property, marketing, and even honor than most might have expected:)

As a writer and author since 1982, I'm very aware of the need and desire for one to protect intellectual properties/copyright. That's why I have long enjoyed the input and guidance of both an experienced attorney in such matters, and a New York literary agent. So I am sensitive to the concerns and challenges faced daily by folks like Sal at Spyderco. While editing Fighting Knives magazine our editorial on several occasions addressed intellectual property / patent issues. I recall custom bowie maker Bill Bagwell being successful in his legal challenge with Gerber back in '89 (?) due to an article we did on the then Italian made Gerber Bowie...which Bill had provided direct assistance with design wise. That article was, to my recollection, provided as evidence in court on Bill's behalf and served to assure Bill's financial claim against Gerber.

There were other instances where we waded in and later discovered we'd been of great help protecting the integrity of a maker's product. The Applegate-Fairbairn project with then BlackJack Knives was another such instance, as custom maker and close friend to the late Colonel Applegate - Bill Harsey - can attest to.

Fighting Knives itself weathered at least one litigation effort filed against it by a certain specialty company...a case that fizzled out and went away as it righly should have. However, I learned a lot about such things from the exceptionally gifted attorney who represented the publisher/magazine and much of his views and insight are reflected in my belief that the cutlery industry in general was a better place when people talked instead of sued.

As for honor I think the public record demonstrates my style has always reflected this track. From giving long overdue public credit to Bob Lum for the introduction of the now famous tanto point design (now a specialty production fixed blade from Spyderco/Lum), to revealing who the real designer/maker of the knives featured in "The Last of the Mohicans" was, to calling Blade magazine on the carpet for refusing to induct Al Mar into the Knifemakers Hall of Fame for their own petty reasons, to identifying and interviewing Chris Caracci as the original designer of a very popular specialty knife company's tactical folder, to seeing Pat Crawford get both due design credit AND royalties for his Blackmoore Dirk design (this was years ago now, wasn't it Pat?), to the "outing" of a well known knife editor's behind the scenes owner/editorship of a cutlery publication in direct competition with the one he was openly editing/working for(my thanks to the great help provided by Steve Gartin and Steve Dick on that piece:) )...to encouraging a donation effort to help staffer Ernie Franco's family when he passed away, FK's style was always in tune with seeking to do the hard right over the easy wrong.

And we must have made a significant impact if the vilification of me on the internet after the magazine was discontinued is any measure of our accomplishments. Myself and Fighting Knives were always the editor and magazine many in the industry loved to hate...but we made a difference and we made a number of knife makers and designers a lot of money along the way, as well.

As Al Mar told me long ago on the subject - "Honor is how those who call themselves your friends treat you after you are no longer able to benefit them in a material way."

Amen, brother, amen.

Sal, as noted, I'm carrying as I have for some time now my Spyderco "Matriarch"...not a Cold Steel "Black Talon" or any other of the several forms of "S" curve blades. Why? You know why;) And so do those who have followed my always supportive and honorable promotions of Spyderco Knives.

In another post someone asked me what I'll be carrying once the President gives the order to liberate Iraq. Again, based on Al Mar's influence and insight, one only takes those tools and weapons best suited for the job, task, or mission at hand. And as Musashi, the greatest Swordsman in Japanese history/lore wrote, "One should not favor one weapon over another." -

This time around it'll be an ATC tomahawk, a Strider D9 combat/utility fixed blade, my favorite little Gryphon boot knife, my SOG multi-tool, my Spyderco "Matriarch" and Emerson CQC 7, and Bud's darned fine bowie. Hey, I'm a knife guy, okay?:eek: :eek: :eek:

Love ya, Sal - we'll buy eachother a beer in Eugene this April, God willing and the creek don't rise.

GW
KU
 
Sal wrote:

"Most storekeepers and most `walk in' customers are not knife nuts. It's hard to justify the extra expense (double) for a product when one is unaware of differences like steel selection."

This got me wondering how the sales of Spyderco knives breaks down between knife nuts and normal people.
I had kinda forgotten that normal people exist. :)

I consider Spyderco the value leader of the industry.
How does a normal person recognize this value?
I realize now that most of my work associates carry worthless knives, and although they saved a little money they got much less knife value for their money.
 
Thanx Gregg. Looking forward to it.

Hi Ken. You mean "Normal" knife nuts and "other people", right?

We don't have such a beakdown, but would love to know that information. We do know that most of our cusomer base is made up of "working class" people and SAS professionals ("Save and Serve"). This is primarily due to the "reliable high performance" aspect of our products. Knife Collectors are there as well, but we haven't a clue as to how they would break down.

Our distributors tell us that their customers (dealers) don't know or care about one steel from another. This may be true, but I "believe" that a percentgage of the ELUs do know and do care, or we're waising a lot of money.

sal
 
Originally posted by Greg Walker

This time around it'll be an ATC tomahawk, a Strider D9 combat/utility fixed blade, my favorite little Gryphon boot knife, my SOG multi-tool, my Spyderco "Matriarch" and Emerson CQC 7, and Bud's darned fine bowie. Hey, I'm a knife guy, okay?:eek: :eek: :eek:

GW
KU
Click to expand...

Greg,

If you need extra 100mph tape, I can send some over. You best tape down all those blades or it'll sound like "church bells a-ringin'" to the enemy with all that jangling steel! Don't want to give up the stealth factor!

:D

Seriously, this has been an excellent thread. Thanks all for sharing some realy good information.

Sal, with a man of honor like you in this business, we always have that benchmark of integrity to use when we deal with others in this business. It's nice to have such a high standard set.

Greg, stay safe and God Bless you.

Best,

~Brian.
 
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