JDM 5160 control shaft steel results, New steel, no more hunting for it

[Dan Gray]

This thread is for the results of the JDM 5160 control shaft steel
that Ed (Fowler) uses in pursuit for the high performance Blade.
steel I've found, not used steel, but steel from the out-fit that makes the
John Deere control Shafts here in the US for John Deere some times called a Pin or a rock shaft. this steel is the end drops of the shafts themselves during manufacture.
one of shaft P#S R52185--is the John deer part number for a 4630 tractor Load Control Shaft/pin
more on the original finds here
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=334803
and more here
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3023191#post3023191

Ed is the first to start working this new find. Thanks Ed..

Hello Dan:
The first blade is forged and in the 950 degree soak right now. It forges great, no faults in the steel were observed as we worked it down. Will be about a week before we can have any performance results.
Again We really appreciate your work
Ed

thanks Ed
I'm Glad to help see this JDM steel not die with the lack of being able to get it.
by this date at least 17 of you have this steel in hand now, please post
your findings on this steel,

Ed has been gracious enough to tell us he will help lead us in the way he uses it with testing and results of the testing..
This is a great opportunity for those that want to learn from an ABS Master knife maker.
thanks again Ed..

Dan, Ed and I finished grinding the 2 blades last night and I started performing the edge flexing on them. I worked on them until after 11pm and decided to wait and finish the testing later. Unfortunately it will be a few days before I can get back to them because I have to attend a funeral in CO. I will say that one of the blades did very well withstanding 15 edge flexes before chipping. We will give you a detailed report as soon as we can get back to them. Butch

great
I was looking through the last blade mag
at the tests Ed did on mutable heats and the higher up was like 17 flexes
so this JDM 5160 work is good news so far at the very least to me..
to comparing to the 52100

sorry to hear about the reason you'll be gone,,funerals are a bummer ,
I wish the best for the grieving..

edited: adding some test results
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=351717 this is with the new JDM5160 I have access to,

Hello Dan:
Last night we finished the first part of testing two blades made from the steel you sent us. We started forging the first blade just as we got the steel from you. The second blade was frorged from a companion bar from the same package. We Soaked the second bar for 2 hours in my Paragon at a temperature just above critical and let it cool slowly to rooom temp.

Both bars then received a full normalizing cycle being heated in the forge then allowed to cool to room temp.

We carefully forged blades from these bars, keeping our forging temp low, the forging temp range was from 1625, down until the steel quit moving. about 950 degrees.

Both blades were subjected to three 35 second quenches, after the front of the blade was forged, from above critical in room temp Texaco Type A quenching fluid. Then the tangs were forged,

Both blades were provided two flash normalizing cycles and one full normalizing cycle after forging. Then placed in the Mankel ceramic forge at about 1,000 f. and allowed to cool slowly to room temp overnight

Both blades were then provided 24 hour cycles in the paragon, Heated to
950, held at that temp for two hours then allowed to cool to rooom temp in the Paragon, in the household freezer overnight and back for the final 950 f. soak.

Both blades where ground, then hardened three times in Texaco Type A at 165 f., then kept in the oil until at room temp than back in the freezer until the next day. these steps were done in three 24 hour cycles,

Tempering was accomplished at 350 degrees, again three cycles in the Paragon, then to the freezer in 24 hour cycles.

We then sharpened the blades and did the edge flex test.

Blade 1 No soak
19 edge flexes before any chips.
550 cuts and still going on hemp rope
1 90 degree flex, then 7 complete 180 degree flexes before the edge cracked.
it broke on the eighth 180 degree flex. Very stong, required an extension on the tang to bend.

Blade 2 with soak
19 edge flexes before edge chipped.
550 cuts on hemp rope, was getting dull.
1 90 degree flex, then 17 complete 180 degree flexes then the cutting edge cracked. This blade was not as strong as blade 1. We were barely able to flex it with out the use of a cheater pipe.

Considering the results of these first test blades I would say your 5160 is every bit as good as the steel from John Deer load control shafts. When carefully forged and heat treated it will provide knives that can definately hold and edge, are easy to sharpen and can be depended on by those who
need a good knife.

Thanks for the opportunity Dan!

Ed Fowler
Bill Burke
Butch Deveraux
Jeff Davidson
Darren Cutsforth

Blade 1 No soak
19 edge flexes before any chips.
550 cuts and still going on hemp rope
1 90 degree flex, then 7 complete 180 degree flexes before the edge cracked.
it broke on the eighth 180 degree flex. Very stong, required an extension on the tang to bend.

Thanks Ed
I'm Happy
result..
this steel will take the place of the used JD shafts when needed..
JD seams to have kept their mix steady

looks like the results of the no soak is the way to go so far, better edge retention and the edge same
flexes but much stronger,,
what do you believe is causing that soaking problem, it did make the steel softer for sure..
carbon Loss??

I wonder if the soaked blade was tempered at 325 if it would have kept up with the non soaked blade.

Hello Dan: We are working without a laboratory right now and have no difenitive answer for you right now. I believe more experimentation may show us something (?)

I do not believe there was any carbon loss at the temps we were working at.

I forgot to add we found no faults in the steel, it was clean and we had good times working it.

Take Care

 

[rhrocker]

Exactly! This is a great opportunity to learn about the 5160 in order to forge, HT, and temper it for it's best results. Following what Ed finds out about it eliminates a lot of the guesswork for me, since he knows how to go about doing the tests properly, and I really don't. I think this is a very good thing for all of us that participated, and special thanks to Dan for the time involved in getting it all sorted out and mailed!

 

[Dan Gray]

thanks Robert
anyone else banging any yet?

 

[Dan Gray]

Ed any news on the testing as of yet?
thanks for anything you have so far?

 

[rhrocker]

Just today, I was stoning on a 400 grit finish on a 5160 Scagel style blade. All of a sudden, there they were! Inclusions from hell! Two of them, hairline cracks, about 1/2" or so. This was 5160 from Admiral :grumpy: Now I get to start all over. I'm really keeping my fingers crossed, and am very optimistic, that the steel that Dan arranged for us will be top quality stuff.

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

I like the 5160 talk!
I'll be headed out to Ed's on the 15th of June for his next "Seminar of the High Performance Blade".
In the mean time, I live here in central Illinois (don't hold that against me!) and it just so happens that my Mother (72!) works in a private manufacturing company that makes anhydrous ammonia applicator knives for farm work and the company has won numerous awards for the longevity of the knives they forge/heat treat and supply to farmers the world over. Steel they use? 5160! Who ever the manufacturer is closely monitors the alloy for consistancy. My Mother's company obtains it from Security Steel not 40 miles from where I live. They are located in Kankakee Illinois and have a web site. If you're finding inclusions in your steel, you might try Security Steel. I don't know how many knives I've forged and finished from their 5160, but have yet to find a flaw.

 

[Deveraux]

Hi Dan. I started learning to make knives under Ed Fowler about a month and a half ago and have forged 5 blades using 5160. So far I've finished out 4 of them. I'm currently using my first finished knife which was the second blade I forged as my everyday carry knife. I'm a general contractor so it is seeing alot of use my utility knife use to do. When I tested it It completed 20 edge flexes and I got 550 cuts on one lay from a 1 1/4" hemp rope. I then finished the first blade I forged which was a large camp knife design. It also withstood 20 edge flexes but I only got around 400 cuts on the rope. Upon etching it I discovered that I did not get a good quench/hardening of the blade so I have not put a handle on it and finished it out yet. My 3rd blade I forged has turned out very well. I got 19 edge flexes before seeing one chip develop in the edge. I then did 5 more flexes and the edge chipped in 2 other places. I then ground the blade to remove the chips, resharpened it and proceeded to get 950 cuts on the one lay of a 1 1/4" hemp rope and the edge would still catch hair on my arm. I just finished that knife out tonight and it is turned out to be a real beauty. The 4th blade I forged also passed with 18 edge flexes and no chips and I got 450 cuts on the rope. I am in the process of finishing the handle on it now. So far Ed hasn't required me to do the 90 degree flex test of any of my blades but I feel confident they would pass without any problems. The test blade that Bill Burke forged at Eds High Performance Blade seminar in April from the 5160 completed one 90 degree and then TEN 180 degree flexes without cracking or showing any stress risers. My 5th blade I forged was actually suppose to be from the steel that Ed is testing for you for the purposes of testing the performance of it. However I picked up the wrong bar and forged one from some of Eds stock. We now plan to use it as a comparison to the blade Ed forged from your steel. I look forward to forging some of yours and working with Ed on the testing of it.
Butch Deveraux

 

[jiminy]

No offense, and nothing personal, but ...I find it difficult to believe that any hardened and tempered knife blade can be bent back and forth 180 degrees ten times without cracking or showing any stress risers.

I'm not saying it didn't (or couldn't) happen, just that I find it difficult to believe. (That is, if I'm understanding what is purported to have occurred correctly.)

 

[Dan Gray]

Butch you got me on the edge of my seat now..
let us know what happens.

Robert I'm sure you can crack this steel also but it should be good clean steel. was it a flaw or heat stress cracks?

Security Steel, the name intrigues me,secrets , I'm sure the big guys that order a lot of steel have it made their way...we can do the same we just have to order
like 5000 pounds or more at a time I think..let us know what you find at Ed's
and how you like this steel..

 

[Ed Fowler]

I know well the doubts when new folks read what properly forged and heat treated steel will do. I can remember when 120 cuts was a lot. When I wrote the first article on multiple quench I flet like a man sticking his neck out way too far, but it has proven its merit.

Butch failed to mention that he was also able to stick his blade tip into a piece of mile steel without any damage to the tip, other than a slight discoloration from some of the mild steel sticking to the steel of the blade tip.

I watched Butch flex his blade and it completed the 180 degree flexes easily.

Kbaknife: You will be able to forge test and read blades that perform like Butches after the seminar. Hopefully during the seminar we will test both blades together. I am pretty busy getting ready for Blade show and have a shoulder that doesn't like to do much work now, but that is going to get fixed in June, therefore I haven't been able to do all the tests I would like to have done by now.

We have a second bar of Dan's steel that is starting out with a Paragon thermal cycle before any further forging that may also prove interesting. I hope to have a second blade of Dan's steel for the tests at the seminar.

The seminars are proving very interesting, we get together, all share information and many new variables are introduced, some by accident, some by plan, but all reveal information that we can all use. There are so many variables that need explored that we will all benefit as more enter the high perfromance realm. I find it very exciting. Lory Szilaski is planning on setting up an area on my web site where graduates of the high performance seminars can discuss theory and events we have witnessed. We are also planning a news letter. All on a non profit basis, solely for the development of the high performance blade.

Folks like Dan and you who are helping develop these opportunities are going to know good times.

Again I apologise for the delay getting the homework done on Dan's steel, but hang on it is on the way.

Take Care

 

[Khukuri Monster]

Sorry about that.

 

[Dan Gray]

Khukuri Monster sorry
this thread is not for Security's Steel though it may be good this thread is
for the testing of the JDM5160 steel.
please guys,, I don't want this thread getting long with of topic stuff. Thanks

This thread should prove to be a learning lesson for all that use the JDM5160 John Deere control shaft steel.

Thanks Ed
we all have things that slow us down, I and I'm sure we all understand that.
I think Jiminy is thinking 180 deg one way?
you flex 90 deg one way then 90 the other way making it 180 deg am I right?

Paragon thermal cycle sounds interesting. if you care to elaborate on that as it happens that would be great also..thanks for your input

 

[Deveraux]

Dan, what we did to for the 180 degree flex is place the lower 1/3 portion of the blade in a vise with wood on each side of the blade to protect it from marring the blade. We then flexed the blade to a complete 90 degree angle which required the use of a 2' cheater pipe. After flexing the blade to the 90 degrees it would spring back to approximately 50 degrees when we release pressure from it. We then flexed the blade a complete 180 degrees and repeated the 180 flexing back and forth a total of 10 times which left the blade in a 90 degree angle when we were done. If any of you are at the Blade show I believe that Bill Burke was going to display the blade at his table. As Ed stated we also stick the tip of each blade we make into the base of his Burr King to make sure the tip is also strong enough to stick and not break off or roll over.
I hope I'm not steering your thread off on a direction you don't want it to be going. If I am I will try to move this to a new thread for discussion. Butch

Jiminy Absolutely no offense taken. I had read about and heard Ed and others talking of the 180 degree flexing of blades but I do have to say that I was VERY impressed when I actually got to see if first hand and participate in flexing that blade. As you say it is very difficult to imagine that it can be done but it is possible with the right combination of proper forging and heat treating of the steel which I am learning first hand from Ed and is what he is teaching at his High Perfomance Blade seminars.


Khukuri. I look forward to meeting you in June and I know you'll leave Eds seminar with a wealth of new knowledge and a few great new 5160 blades to work on.

 

[Dan Gray]

no problem Butch
this adds to it..

 

[Nowicki]

Finally got to forge some last night. It was a little harder then the coil springs but that might have been because it was a lot thicker. I preheated it just because. This is rough forged. I need to draw the tang some and straiten. I'll do an edge quench and draw 3 times. I usually draw 5160 at 390 for 1 hour...is that right for this stuff? Should I put it in the freezer between quenches?

 

[Bob Hook]

I also attended Ed's High Performance Blade seminar and witnessed the forging of the above-mentioned blade from the raw stock all the way through to the actual performance test. I too would have been skeptical if I had not witnessed the entire process. Ed Fowler and Bill Burke have done a lot of hard work and scientific testing to maximize the performance of 5160 steel. If you are truly interested in producing high performing blades then I would highly recommend attending Ed's class. This class will make you a believer in the forged blade and send you on your own quest for the ultimate blade. Stop by Bill Burke’s table at the Blade show and take a look at the blade.

 

[rhrocker]

I wish Ed would offer his class (on 5160) on tape!

 

[birdog4]

Sure wish JohnDeere used half inch stock.

 

[Ed Fowler]

Nowicki: I would freeze the blades between quenches. Rather this helps or not depends on your forging techniques.

Bob: Thanks for the compliment, All we showed you was the result of a team effort that started over 30 years ago and continues to grow.

Rhrocker: Actually we are working on producing a new video that will be over 6 hours long, just waiting for funding if it shows up. It will be very extensive, but no where close to what happens hands on at the seminars, it is just too hard to communicate all without the interaction that happens when we coach one on one.

I am becoming more enthusiastic as we work with the 5160, properly worked up, there are few blades that can shine like 5160 with it comes to endurance testing. Our next seminar will explore two variables we have not tried with this steel as a demonstration, should prove interesting.

 

[Dan Gray]

Sure wish JohnDeere used half inch stock.

Bruce...just rip it in two

Larry that is some bigger stuff to start with..once you got it worked down to size how did it work?

thanks Ed
the Videos will do well I'm sure..,,
would you elaborate on the two variables?