JDM 5160 control shaft steel results, New steel, no more hunting for it

You know how Master Mark's sholder goes out once in a while....Well My back does sort of the same thing. It has been bothering me for a couple of weeks now. When I started beating on that thing it was a little sore. By the time I got done for the night it hurt bad. I'm not sure but it seemed to forge easy when it was thinner (like reg 5160). I'm going to draw the tang a little and straiten it so I'll konw better in a little while.
 
Well it forged easy and straitend the same as 5160. I noticed that there was a lot more scale on the floor like I get when I forge D2. Not today but from when I did the first rough forge. It's cooling now. I'll profile and grind some later.

Ed I don't usually triple quench. After I freeze it do I pre-heat it like I do for D2 or Just bring it to heat and quench? Drawing to 390. Is that in the ballpark?


Larry
 
When I heat treat, I heat the blade up the same way with a tortch every time. as exactly the same as I can. 2X flame, soft and slow bringing the edge steel up to non magnetic, checking always with a magnet and leave the spine magnetic.
My Texaco Type A quenching fluid is pre heated to 165 degrees, I place the blade edge down on my regulator block to the exact same level each time.

The more forging you do with the steel at the right time and temp, 1,625 f. tops while forging the less scale you will have on your anvil. Also you will have less scale on the hardened portion of the blade after cooling. We have been leaving the blade in the oil until it cools to room temp, then placing it in the house hold freezer for at least 18 hours. If you don't have time to work on it for a few days, let it wait for you in the freezer, won't hurrt a thing.

You are pretty close to 1625 when there is only light scale comming off of the blade when you first start forging, scale like powder snow. This does not count when you bring a large piece of steel up to temp the first time as the amount of time to get to critical will be longer and scale is a function of both time and temp.

Two of the variables we are going to explore:
One bar just as it came from Dan, heat it up and forge it down.
Second bar has been soaked for two hours in my Paragon at just above critical came up to critical in two hours time, soaked, and then allowed to cool in the Paragon to room temp.

The reason for the second variable is because it corrected one source of error in our 52100 experiments.
 
OK....got ya. Boy you got the weels turning in my head. I'll forge the other piece of that same bar at a lower temp with a longe pre heat. Sort of a normalizing preheat. I'll try the same with D2 next time. I'm kind of an impatient bitch but if it makes a diference I'll do it.

Larry
 
Larry,
In order to do this thing right you will need Texaco Type "A".

I tell this to a lot of folks who call...

Maybe Ed will correct me on this or even Bill or one of the other guys.

But I feel Type "A" is an essential part of the equation. Ed has worked with it consistantly...and it has become one of the keystones of his process.

Maybe I am overstepping here...alot of top name guys will tell you what I just said is crap. That you can use anything as long as you beat the pearlite nose,you are ok...and I am sure that is true...but when I finally got some Type "A" my results became more uniform..and ultimatley more predictable.

Please email me...I will send some Type "A" your way so your experiments can mirror what is going on at Willow Bow a bit more closely.

I cannot make this offer to everybody...because I can no longer get Type "A"...but for the purposes of this thread and the sake of learning I will do it this once....

Shane
 
Larry: remember to give it a long slow cool down time after your first soak. The low temp forging is absolutely critical. We have tried oils that were "about" the same as Texaco Type A and produced blades that were almost as good.

It is the beginning not the end that puts the edge on a knife. The beginning starts with the selection of steel (thanks Dan) and continues until you make the first cut. When someone says any other oil is just as good, look to see if their blade is etched, read the etch and you will know how well they have done their homework.Then ask them how they test their blades?

Shane and I both went in to hock purchasing enough Texaco Type A to keep the quest for the high performance blade alive. Like Shane said, right now there is no more available.
 
shane justice said:
Larry,
In order to do this thing right you will need Texaco Type "A".
I tell this to a lot of folks who call...
Maybe Ed will correct me on this or even Bill or one of the other guys.

But I feel Type "A" is an essential part of the equation. Ed has worked with it consistantly...and it has become one of the keystones of his process.

Maybe I am overstepping here...alot of top name guys will tell you what I just said is crap. That you can use anything as long as you beat the pearlite nose,you are ok...and I am sure that is true...but when I finally got some Type "A" my results became more uniform..and ultimatley more predictable.

Shane
Click to expand...

hockey pucks :D just kidding but
there could be even better oil out there you could use BUT the key to testing is to keep as many factors the same as possible and changing one thing at a time so you don't have variables you can't chase down and Identify,,

Shane how long is the oil good for? by way of viscosity changes and contamination? I know you can't be exact but is there a time frame..

thanks Ed do you have input on this? time frame?

good thread so far.. :)
 
Having no press or power hammer I have been intimidated by the diameter of Dans 5160 - so have not forged any yet. Are any of you other makers working this steel with hammer and anvil?

See you in Atlanta,

PJG
 
Larry,
I just shot you an email...

As far as how long type "A" will last...in my experience it does not spoil...the way I have heard some do...

I have no doubt somebody will jump in here and tell me all the scientific jazz about the shelf life of any petrolated product....

I can tell you honestly I have been using the same trough full of oil for three years..I can't say how many blades I have done during that time between experimenting on flat stock and then actually using quenches during forging...and HT. It is hard to say.

As far as contamination...I keep a lid on my trough that has a slot for when I am quenching while I am forging...and take the top off during HT...the rest of the time it is covered...no doubt there is some stuff in there I would rather not have... however the oil is clean and clear...with little or no sentiment on the bottom...what you can see is some of the flaked off slag from when the blade is quenched...(One of the visual indicators I use to know if I did a good quench is the bright "silver" band that is void of any scale exacltly where the blade was heated. Scale sometimes flakes off in the trough...) IN short i keep it as clean as I can...and it works.

I have never put a viscosity tester on my oil...but in layman's terms the used stuff in my trough runs like the clean stuff in the barrels.

I know some science dude is gonna ream me for my non-specific explaination using incorrect grammar and poor choice of terms to explain a highly technical matter...to this I say .."NUTS!"( In remebrance...)

...but I will do some homework with my Texaco folks and report back....

To answer your question AIKO...

We have done it many times...with hammers big and small...it is work...but well worth the outcome...if for no other reason than to know you can do it...and nobody can take that away from you....though they will try.

The blade I used to pass the ABS performance test was forged from a load shaft...I used a two and a half pound hammer.

Shane
 
I have never changed the oil in my quench tank, not ever, and I don't intend to. I have been using it for over 30 years and every time someone has come up that has been using something just like it or just as good when we compared blades in endurance testing that old Texaco Type A has always come out on top.

One time long ago I was getting ready for my journeyman test, I had flexed many blades that passed the 90 degree flex with ease. As I was getting ready for my journeyman's performance test I figured I needed to make her shine and bought some new oil that was sold under same trade name, "just the same but new. "The next 20 blades snapped like glass. I could not figure it, luckly I had kept my old oil and poured the new back in to its jug, put the old back into the quench tank and guess what, the next 10 blades all passed just like they used to. I called the company, they told me they had changed to a faster oil and that "no one else had complained."

That is when I learned that lesson. This oil has no additives, therefore shelf life is very long, the more additives the shorter the shelf life.

When I heard they were no longer going to be making it, I ordered three barrels from Shane I now own 5 barrels of it and not quite through the first one I bought over 30 years ago. If you want to know how well it works, just ask one of the bladesmiths who have attended our seminars.
 
As Ed stated his oil appears to be working just fine. Maybe it ages just like a fine Scotch and gets better with age. :D
The blade I wrote about earlier in this thread that flexed TEN 180 degree and one 90 degree flexes was quenched in that very tank. All the blades I've forged have also been quenched in that tank. Although I didn't flex it, one blade I did got 950 cuts on the hemp rope and 19 edge flexes on the brass rod. Maybe someday I'll embark on experimenting with a controlled testing of quenching with his old oil compared to a fresh new tank but I hope no one holds their breath waiting on me. :D
 
mmmmm :cool:

Shane or Ed ?
I think you've talked me into trying it out...now..
what's the chances of getting a gal or two from one of you?

I'll pay for it of course ... :)
 
Since we're all going to have the best quality steel, we should try to get equal quenches, or nothing will be the same. BTW Dan, my 5160 arrived today, boxes were in good shape, thanks!
 
Dear Dan,
You busted your A$$ to find this steel...and a lot of folks are benefitting from it..as far as I can tell you have profitted not one bloody nickel...and for that there should be a lot of grateful folks in this forum.

I will send some oil your way. Shoot me an email. All I ask is that you try it...and report back what you found out, good bad or otherwise.

So the moderators know. This is not a sales deal.

My oil supply is dwindling. AHHHH! Wendy says no more free oil for any of you mooks! If you wanna complain...talk to my boss...she got the checkbook and is in contol of my shop budget!

Shane
 
Sweany,
Just before the first of the year..I got word from my local guy that things were changing...Texaco and Chevron merged...and with the change...the status of Type "A" changed...I heard from one source the recipe was sold to Shell...but haven't heard anymore about it...now I hear Chevron may make their own version...however...

My Texaco guy got it in writing that QuenchTex Type "A" is slated to be discontinued. I called everybody I knew that wanted a barrel and we bought all we could. Currently from my distributor..I can only buy in lots of 1500 gallons from the Lousiville plant..but to get it from Denver I have to have a minimum order of 6000 gallons. For all intents and purposes...I can no longer get Type "A"...and you can quote me on that.

If anybody has a source for it...I would say get it now.

Also..if somebody has different info...let us know.

Over the years Rick Baum and I have tried to keep folks supplied with Type A. Both of us are just part time guys trying to supply our own knifemaking adventures while working to break even...so we fell into shipping..It has been quite an experience.

Honestly, I wish this thread had started about three years ago...then everybody would have got some type "A" while supplies were still healthy.

Shane
 
I'd sure like to buy some "A" from someone. 5 Gallons would do. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we all find something that will work as well as what Shane and Ed use currently. In the meantime, I'm stuck with Brownells Quick Quench, unless someone has a better suggestion. (Shane, that was a really nice gesture giving the oil to Dan! He does deserve it, that's for sure!).
 
Since we're drifting into the realm of quenchants,
would some of you care to expound on the attributes/liabilities of the different quench oils? Major/minor differences? Or should we start another thread? Enquiring minds and all. bruce
 
Hey Bruce,
I think I will pass on expounding....there are real experts around here that could spend days on the subject.

What I can say is reliable...predicatble...consistant results are what to shoot for. If you can get this with what you are using...and you are happy with it...rock on!

I can say Type "A" is the best I have used for what I am doing and leave it at that. I have tried motor oil...clean and dirty...olive oil...peanut oil...ATF...Power Steering Fluid...Brownell's Tough Qunech...water...and animal fat...I haven't tried brine...or urine or blood for obvious reason! :D

And yes quenchants should be on another thread. I shouldn't have metioned it here. Except for I think it makes a difference when we are all chasinfg the same thoughts...

Ok experts have at it...

Shane
 
I hear ya Shane. At present, I'm using vet grade mineral oil and getting much more consistant results than previous types(much the same stuff as you).
I would have to say that each individual steel will react a little bit different to each quenchant.
Heck I had some sawblade that loved peanut oil! And some that just wouldn't show that extra little bit I thought it should.
Sweany's been tormentin' me to play with the water quench but I hate that "tink" sound. :-)
 
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