Joe's BME-2 video is...

[MacLaren1]

I think that Jerry Busse is a decent and honest person. Probably they simply did not anticipate such tests and loads on the spine when they wrote about this steel. behavior of materials is a complex science and I think that not all manufacturers know all the subtleties. It's just that for a $40 knife you can forgive anything. and a knife for 500 dollars - there are always more demands on it and that’s normal.

True.
But, I would also remind people that watch and read this of the Warranty that Jerry offers. And, that Warranty that he offers just cannot be overstated. Warranty, especially now a days is just HUGE! A lot if not most will go no where even close what Busse will do as to Warranty. Chip a knife real bad, forget about.....with another company you'll probably get a ground down nub of what you originally had and who knows how many weeks that will even take to get done.
Nah, the Warranty says so, so, so much about Busse. I don't know of another company that even comes close to offering the Warranty that Busse does. And, again, it's incredibly important to note, the HUGE difference in getting a new knife back or gettting a ground down shorter or less width blade or both knife with another companies Warranty. And, further note just how long it takes ....
Please don't get me wrong, I agree with your post. I just thought this was a great time to quote good post in order to remind people out there about the Busse Warranty. Which, just speaks volumes in itself.

 

[beachmaster]

Edge geometry isn't just about how thick the blade is. It's also about the grind type, where it extends to, blade height, etc. Generally, the further the edge of a knife is from the spine, the more potential there could be for failure if everything else is equal.

Let's say two knives are the same thickness at the spine, but one measures 1.25 inches edge to spine, while the other measures 2.25 inches from edge to spine. All things being equal, the "2.25" inch knife will fail/break more easily under specific types of stress than the other. Think of it like wood wedges and the different ways you could damage or break one.

I agree that the chips in the afbm were catastrophic and shouldn't have occurred. However, they could probably be attributed to something with the heat treatment. We'll never know though because Joe X refused to send the pieces in for analysis, even after Busse offered to pay for the knife and shipping.
Why not send the broken pieces in? Nobody knows for sure except Joe X.

To me, it looks like he doesn't care about anything useful being learned and just wants to push his own biases. He doesn't want his "results" being challenged. He's a hack and wants to stir the pot in hopes of extending his 15 minutes of fame.

To be blunt, the only people I've seen cheer for his "tests" and claim they have any merit seem to be those with a lack of/very limited understanding of several principles involved in knife making/design (not that im claiming to be an expert). His biggest fans and proponents seem to be those that want to justify their bias against higher priced knives. Just my observations.

Edge geometry is actually literally none of that- you are talking about blade geometry.

Edge geometry is about the edge- bte, height, and shape.

Important distinction

 

[Cobalt]

Edge geometry is actually literally none of that- you are talking about blade geometry.

Edge geometry is about the edge- bte, height, and shape.

Important distinction

I think he was talking blade geometry. But you are both right. Both matter in an overall knifes performance. So many schoolsxofcthough on actual blade geometry preferences

 

[bladefiend1]

The Ash 2 and AFBM AND the BMe had vastly different geometries than the other knives that passed joes tests or did better than it. Unless you’re talking about thin machetes that are half the hardness of busse blades and meant to bend and flex wildly.

Everything Busse has stated about their blades is in fact very very true in my uses and I’ve used and abused mine extensively.

They hardly rust at all, and if they do it’s easily removed and only in the surface. My MOASK, which I’m pretty sure is pre-2002 INFI, is extremely hard to rust, even more than the modern stuff.

They are easy to sharpen for their hardness.

They are tougher than other blades of similar geometry and hardness. (See CPK bolt test INFI vs 3V, D3V and Magnacut.)

The AFBM was not acceptable which is why Jerry offered a full refund and for Joe to send back the pieces so we can know if it was a heat treat failure or a design flaw.

You can’t just state that Busses claims are disingenuous as if that is at all truth. They do everything they say they can do. And more because I throw mine all the time as well.

I would agree that comparing the busses joe tested to wtg ares an tops tracker is apples to oranges and you cannot expect the same durability from such a different edge geometry. However this part of what you said "the only other blades that preformed better were the WTG Ares and the Tom brown tracker" is where I have to say that you are 100% wrong. Many knives with roughly similar looking geometries (we cannot know for sure unless again you own them or manufacturer publishes grind height, thickness behind the edge, stock thickness, and Edge angle and blade length, making sure to type them all out this one time so you don't write snarky comment even if it is tedious) performed much better than both mistresses and roughly similar some slightly worse some slightly better than the ash2. Go watch his vids. Someone could make a small compilation of blades with pretty similar looking geometries that outperformed the mistresses. I however will not be that person because although I somewhat like joex his personality gets abrasive his tests are repetitive (especially for knives I don't care about) and I have a hard time watching 2 of his vids in a row. The reasons I can make these claims is because I have watched ≈1 vid of his per month for the last couple years.

 

[bladefiend1]

Before I get corrected I think I swapped edge geometry with blade geometry in one of my sentences aswell

 

[bladefiend1]

In my last reply.

 

[bladefiend1]

I would agree that comparing the busses joe tested to wtg ares an tops tracker is apples to oranges and you cannot expect the same durability from such a different edge geometry. However this part of what you said "the only other blades that preformed better were the WTG Ares and the Tom brown tracker" is where I have to say that you are 100% wrong. Many knives with roughly similar looking geometries (we cannot know for sure unless again you own them or manufacturer publishes grind height, thickness behind the edge, stock thickness, and Edge angle and blade length, making sure to type them all out this one time so you don't write snarky comment even if it is tedious) performed much better than both mistresses and roughly similar some slightly worse some slightly better than the ash2. Go watch his vids. Someone could make a small compilation of blades with pretty similar looking geometries that outperformed the mistresses. I however will not be that person because although I somewhat like joex his personality gets abrasive his tests are repetitive (especially for knives I don't care about) and I have a hard time watching 2 of his vids in a row. The reasons I can make these claims is because I have watched ≈1 vid of his per month for the last couple years.

In this sentence specifically "you cannot expect the same durability from such a different edge geometry" I meant blade geometry though the sentence still kind of holds true ig. Just doesn't make sense in context.

 

[Jack of All Blades]

I would agree that comparing the busses joe tested to wtg ares a tops tracker is apples to oranges and you cannot expect the same durability from such a different edge geometry. However this part of what you said "the only other blades that preformed better were the WTG Ares and the Tom brown tracker" is where I have to say that you are 100% wrong. Many knives with roughly similar looking geometries (we cannot know for sure unless again you own them or manufacturer publishes grind height, thickness behind the edge, stock thickness, and Edge angle and blade length, making sure to type them all out this one time so you don't write snarky comment even if it is tedious) performed much better than both mistresses and roughly similar some slightly worse some slightly better than the ash2. Go watch his vids. Someone could make a small compilation of blades with pretty similar looking geometries that outperformed the mistresses. I however will not be that person because although I somewhat like joex his personality gets abrasive his tests are repetitive (especially for knives I don't care about) and I have a hard time watching 2 of his vids in a row. The reasons I can make these claims is because I have watched ≈1 vid of his per month for the last couple years.

Alright, in all fairness I didn’t mean to come off as snarky when I said “100% wrong”, my apologies. I do think you should get some hands on experience with the blades first before putting info out on bladeforums that may be false, or make it seem like Busse is making false claims about their steel.

A bit shocking but I am an avid watcher of Joe X’s videos. Been watching him from the very beginning with his Cold Steel videos.

He wasn’t always like this, he would destroy blades and still say they were awesome considering the gross abuse they took.

He’s changed over the years into …this mess. They don’t use scientific methods not because they’re incapable, but because they don’t want to.

I’ve seen lots of blades the same geometry and thickness but different (softer) hardness do better than the mistress. But again they’re different beasts. Softer steel is another beast entirely. Can’t compare the two.

 

[carnifex knifeworks]

Edge geometry is actually literally none of that- you are talking about blade geometry.

Edge geometry is about the edge- bte, height, and shape.

Important distinction

You're correct. I should have stated blade geometry. I updated my original post.

 

[Cobalt]

You're correct. I should have stated blade geometry. I updated my original post.

On to the bigger issue. I saw the Tubi movie, Carniflex. Boy that was almost as bad as killer Tomatos.

 

[bladefiend1]

Interesting direction you took. As someone who was there when INFI was introduced I can say that the biggest takeaway from INFI was that it was more of a process than a steel. The steel was a small part of it and I think thats the big misunderstanding. INFI from the beginning was an HT process and a certain steel. Nitrogen was obviously a part of it but the HT as the proprietary part. There was two INFI steels right from the begining. And the performance was slightly dimished in the basic but not that much. The info to be gleaned is that it isnt the steel as much as the processing that was important. The formula for the basics appears to be what ended up becoming later INFI. And thats fine with me. If it came out that modern INFI process is using modA8 or k329 I am fine with that. I am pretty sure no one else is doing 60 to 80 hours of HT on their knives and for the exact same blade geometry, I doubt they will beat INFI. This is all my deduction by the way. INFI, the process is still proprietary, the steel's chem composition can easily be determined at any time. I've done it myltiple times as shown above. Larrin did it once and claimed that all INFI was what he proclaimed. Not sure I would say he is a reliable source. As I said above, one data point does not make a conclusion. I know there is a Larrin fanboi club here. Thats fine. But he was wrong in making that statement and can't own up to it. Is it because he is pushing his own product. Yeah, I did just go there. Since we are being harsh, lets do it in a 360 degree way with those that deserve some of the blame. People should not take things as gospel. If you are going to question Busse's motives you should also question Larrin's motives. To be honest I don't believe either have any motives just trying to make a point. I dont believe Larrin was being underhanded in any way any more than I believe Busse would ever be. But if you are going to go in the conspiracy direction then there is enough ammo to go in other directions.

I've said previously that more likely than not imo Busse is not being malicious. However through what is probably unfortunate coincidence (the poor performance in recent tests, adverse findings by larrin, his radio silence for prolonged period of time on the topic) a reasonable person might be slightly suspicious just enough perhaps to not purchase a busse knife they where on the fence on. Busse has a chance to clear the air by independently having the knives tested. And should do so asap. Can we at least agree on that? Even if it is just to silence the "haters" who don't know anything about knives (like some of you think I am) their negative comments still might dissuade prospective buyers. I think the cost of the test would be easily offset by the positive impact it would have on busses business and could prove his innocence beyond a doubt. As an aside; although I think your example of larrin slandering Busse to increase the sale of his steels is way more farfetched than mine as he probably only makes a small commission on their sales or maybe even just sold the pattent to crucible for a one time prize idrk. He has very little to gain for reducing the business of one knife manufacturer and a lot to lose. You def got a chuckle out of me. Although I do genuinly think it's unfortunate larrin has (as far as I know) monopoly of knowledge on knife metallurgy online would be cool to occasionally get second opinions on this stuff. Also lastly I took three posts earlier to correct one mistake in one of my replies that was bad etiquette from me and will not happen again.

 

[bladefiend1]

You came here having never owned a Busse Knife ,calling the claims Busse makes false and dishonest. You don’t get to do that then spew whatever you think you know about knives and stock thickness and expect it to be taken as truth. I get playing devils advocate but everything you’ve stated has something to do with bringing Busse down a notch by stating things that are blatantly false.

Stock thickness will increase the overall strength of the blade, doesn’t matter if it’s lateral or not.

I didn't spew anything I am fully aware that my knowledge of knives is very rudimentary compared to some members here (you are definitely not amongst them). of my original two posts only a couple of sentences less than 5% of total length were about blade geometry, you misunderstood those 2 sentences and tried to build a case that my understanding of blade geometry was limited to stock thickness. Then when I corrected you and gave a brief overview of the topic to prove I had inkling of what I was talking about you tried to nitpick one phrase in my overview that I amended within 30 secs of writing it. I am sorry to say but owning a Busse doesn't make you an expert on their durability which is what we are talking about. (Doing destructive testing on one would put you a step in the right direction). The reason why what I am saying about Busse at the moment is mostly negative is because the tone here is overly positive (which is understandable some you have spent a lot of your hard earned money on these knives and throughout the years have seen them prove themselves time and time again through many tests such as noss's) This makes many of you overly dismissive however of contrary evidence. As for blatantly false statements please name one the only ones I can think on this thread are the ones you have made 1. When you blatantly missquoted my statement on blade geometry (I will give you a pass it was long af)2. When you said that wtg ares and tops tracker where the only blades that outperformed Busse in joex tests 3. You claim that I say Busse is wrong and dishonest I never have. I only entertained the possibility and said he might be. As for my value to the thread I have probably watched more joex vids than most of you which gives me a different perspective, I can correct people who spread misinformation like you mister jack, and lastly I enjoy knives like all of us and like learning about them. Do you have any other issues with me or is that about it?

 

[Vlad22]

I didn't spew anything I am fully aware that my knowledge of knives is very rudimentary compared to some members here (you are definitely not amongst them). of my original two posts only a couple of sentences less than 5% of total length were about blade geometry, you misunderstood those 2 sentences and tried to build a case that my understanding of blade geometry was limited to stock thickness. Then when I corrected you and gave a brief overview of the topic to prove I had inkling of what I was talking about you tried to nitpick one phrase in my overview that I amended within 30 secs of writing it. I am sorry to say but owning a Busse doesn't make you an expert on their durability which is what we are talking about. (Doing destructive testing on one would put you a step in the right direction). The reason why what I am saying about Busse at the moment is mostly negative is because the tone here is overly positive (which is understandable some you have spent a lot of your hard earned money on these knives and throughout the years have seen them prove themselves time and time again through many tests such as noss's) This makes many of you overly dismissive however of contrary evidence. As for blatantly false statements please name one the only ones I can think on this thread are the ones you have made 1. When you blatantly missquoted my statement on blade geometry (I will give you a pass it was long af)2. When you said that wtg ares and tops tracker where the only blades that outperformed Busse in joex tests 3. You claim that I say Busse is wrong and dishonest I never have. I only entertained the possibility and said he might be. As for my value to the thread I have probably watched more joex vids than most of you which gives me a different perspective, I can correct people who spread misinformation like you mister jack, and lastly I enjoy knives like all of us and like learning about them. Do you have any other issues with me or is that about it?

I watched probably 80 percent of Joe's videos and all of Nose's tests. and tested my two Busse and my friend's Joe-style Busse. I already posted a video in another similar thread

 

[Jack of All Blades]

I am sorry to say but owning a Busse doesn't make you an expert on their durability which is what we are talking about. (Doing destructive testing on one would put you a step in the right direction).

I have beaten MANY Busses over the last 7 years. Ive thrown them on a daily basis for hours at weeks at a time. Ive stood on them hammered into trees and jumped off them at ~230 lbs. Ive chopped through aluminum poles into concrete. Tip tests? Thats what I do for fun just cranking on them. Ive bent the swords 90 degrees, split plenty of wood, and at the end of all this abuse they can still cut paper and only need a little touch up. Ive beaten on pre-2002 blades and the new stuff from all lengths and sizes.
Ive spent the last 6~7 years active on this forum alone learning everything I could about Busse and other blades as well.

Many other veteran hog members here have used Busses for decades before me with the same results.

You have not used any at all. Ever.
So yes I think I can say with confidence I am somewhat of a Busse expert in my own regard.

The reason why what I am saying about Busse at the moment is mostly negative is because the tone here is overly positive

But why though? The tone is overly positive because we know what INFI can do because WE use it.

makes many of you overly dismissive however of contrary evidence.

What contrary evidence? Each blade performed excellent besides the AFBM which is an Anorexic model (and we will never know if it was a bad heat treat since Joe won't send back the blade but the consensus here is that it was a bad HT). If another blade did better in Joes test it was either A) a softer steel B) a thicker blade/blade height ratio or C) both.

And if the other blade performed better at taking a beating. It is NOT semi stainless, 60 hrc, AND easy to sharpen. Performance of INFI is not just the toughness.

You claim that I say Busse is wrong and dishonest I never have. I only entertained the possibility and said he might be.

Difference? Im simply shutting down that "possibility" before it spreads like wildfire since Joes fans love to jump on those sort of accusations without any evidence. Busse 100% performs how they say it does.

As for my value to the thread I have probably watched more joex vids than most of you which gives me a different perspective, I can correct people who spread misinformation like you mister jack, and lastly I enjoy knives like all of us and like learning about them. Do you have any other issues with me or is that about it?

Watching Joe X videos does not give you any meaningful perspective on blade performance, at least not if you are ignoring certain factors in his test like steel hardness and variations in stock thickness.

I don't have a problem with you, just the spreading of misinformation without any evidence.
If you want to learn about these blades I highly suggest you try using them and form your own opinions first hand.

 

[hugofeynman]

Just curious, what kind of warranty did you get with your custom blade?

I pay for a custom knife made one at a time from the steel my maker likes to use or the one I request/supply and heat treated one at a time, If, by miracle, the knife fails, I assume the lost. Having said that, my custom makers are great people that stay behind their product, but it’s not my thing to blame them for my abuse of their products, so I would not use the warranty.

 

[patrickguignot]

INFI, the process is still proprietary, the steel's chem composition can easily be determined at any time. I've done it myltiple times as shown above. Larrin did it once and claimed that all INFI was what he proclaimed (...) But he was wrong in making that statement and can't own up to it.

No, Larrin never said this.
I wrote it, not him.
And I should have written that only my particular Park Ranger model was in A8mod.

 

[MacLaren1]

I pay for a custom knife made one at a time from the steel my maker likes to use or the one I request/supply and heat treated one at a time, If, by miracle, the knife fails, I assume the lost. Having said that, my custom makers are great people that stay behind their product, but it’s not my thing to blame them for my abuse of their products, so I would not use the warranty.

But, what is the warranty? Is it like Busse Combat? Is it in writing like Busse?
Is it for life for anything that happens to it?
Of course it's not. No one stands behind their product like Busse Combat. No one can..so you see - its not marketing hype when a company puts their money where their mouth is.

 

[goldie]

Jack of all blades , you said the key word: the spreading of misinformation . Thats what Shmo X is doing : look at the comments, people saying Busse sucks because hes saying it : idiots waiting for Shmo X to test any knife because their purchase depends on his results . All these people are doing is cheating themselves out of a great knife . But id hate to see these people walk away from these videos , then tell others that these brands suck because some moron on youtube broke them .

 

[Gato do mato]

I destroyed 10 dollar Morakniv, but I can't understand why anyone in their right mind would destroy a Busse.
Soon after becoming a widower, in 2016, I had a lot of financial problems to continue raising my daughter, who at the time was only 7 years old, so I had to sell my only Busse, a Team Gemini.
Which I will probably never have the opportunity to have again.
Unfortunately.

 

[hugofeynman]

But, what is the warranty? Is it like Busse Combat? Is it in writing like Busse?
Is it for life for anything that happens to it?
Of course it's not. No one stands behind their product like Busse Combat. No one can..so you see - its not marketing hype when a company puts their money where their mouth is.

I never said Busses warranty is not very good. That’s pretty clear they have one of the very best warranties in business. I’m just disappointed with their performance in Joes tests. From the knives that survived that torture, NONE had the Busse Combat logo on them. This is sad and messes with my OCD.