Joe's BME-2 video is...

[carnifex knifeworks]

Durability isn't anywhere near the most important factor in my knife purchases but it is busses claim to fame and the premise by which they distance themselves from other makers and justify charging 600+$ for production knives in an ingot steel. If they don't have that why bother buying them. For the claims on the premise of edge geometry I only have a very simplified understanding of blade geometry relative to some of you but neither the ash2 nor the ergo mistress have particularly thin geometries as far as I can tell... And had plenty of material at the tip and while the afbm has somewhat thin geometry for a chopper it had half inch tall chips after hitting the brick a few times... That is unacceptable for a near 1/4 inch thick knife; the grind isn't that tall ffs. Lastly I think joex tries to break most knives about equally hard ≈95% of the time. It would be easy to spot if you slowed down the footage and and had a basic understanding of physics ( I don't). I do however concede that he almost certainly went easy on the survival Lilly knife; that vid is ridiculous and he got shit on by a lot of people for it deservedly so, I don't know how he got a pass on that. The skrama vid is also suspicious but I am 50/50 on that one. He also claims that aus8 is the toughest steel he has experienced wtf? But overall he seems to go equally hard on most knives and the busses aside from the ash2 which as stated previously did ok were downright fragile and people need to stop making excuses for that.

Blade geometry isn't just about how thick the blade is. It's also about the grind type, where it extends to, blade height, etc. Generally, the further the edge of a knife is from the spine, the more potential there could be for failure if everything else is equal.

Let's say two knives are the same thickness at the spine, but one measures 1.25 inches edge to spine, while the other measures 2.25 inches from edge to spine. All things being equal, the "2.25" inch knife will fail/break more easily under specific types of stress than the other. Think of it like wood wedges and the different ways you could damage or break one.

I agree that the chips in the afbm were catastrophic and shouldn't have occurred. However, they could probably be attributed to something with the heat treatment. We'll never know though because Joe X refused to send the pieces in for analysis, even after Busse offered to pay for the knife and shipping.
Why not send the broken pieces in? Nobody knows for sure except Joe X.

To me, it looks like he doesn't care about anything useful being learned and just wants to push his own biases. He doesn't want his "results" being challenged. He's a hack and wants to stir the pot in hopes of extending his 15 minutes of fame.

To be blunt, the only people I've seen cheer for his "tests" and claim they have any merit seem to be those with a lack of/very limited understanding of several principles involved in knife making/design (not that im claiming to be an expert). His biggest fans and proponents seem to be those that want to justify their bias against higher priced knives. Just my observations.

Edited: I mistakenly said edge geometry. I should have stated blade geometry.

 

[Cobalt]

Are we talking about the fragile ego of Busse fanbois?

Because I'm struggling here, why can't I partake in my favorite knife addiction without these harsh fanboi accusations?

So you think its ok to call Busse a liar and for shmoeX to say he is going to F busse's wife? Thats ok? Yeah, you are likely in the wrong forum if u think thats ok. The guy has no class, that much is obvious. Who's the joeX fanboi? If he had kept it clean and honest, I could deal with that. Hes a turd just like amber hurd.

 

[bladefiend1]

I dont have the time to respond to his book. But I read it and he accused me of being harsh yet basically accused busse of being disingenuous in his claims about INFI, and thats not harsh?


All I can say now is bladefiend, you are way off and you were harsh to Busse. You literally insulted Busse and said he lies about his product. I can't believe anyone with any sense even liked your comment. Wtf?

I simply said that given the apparent discrepancy between his claims on the performance of his knives and their actual performance when tested independently; he is either gravely mistaken or disingenuous. These are the only two possible conclusions if you believe the two following statements which I do. 1. Joex's tests give decent rough estimates on the durability of blades under abuse 2. The Busses performed poorly in his tests. I did not insult him and was quite fair.

 

[Vlad22]

I simply said that given the apparent discrepancy between his claims on the performance of his knives and their actual performance when tested independently; he is either gravely mistaken or disingenuous. These are the only two possible conclusions if you believe the two following statements which I do. 1. Joex's tests give decent rough estimates on the durability of blades under abuse 2. The Busses performed poorly in his tests. I did not insult him and was quite fair.

I think that Jerry Busse is a decent and honest person. Probably they simply did not anticipate such tests and loads on the spine when they wrote about this steel. behavior of materials is a complex science and I think that not all manufacturers know all the subtleties. It's just that for a $40 knife you can forgive anything. and a knife for 500 dollars - there are always more demands on it and that’s normal.

 

[Gravelface]

judging by the composition there is a lot of carbon there. it should be less durable than INFI. and I’m happy with my knives, my Busse withstood all the abuse. but I would be glad to buy something even more durable.

I simply said that given the apparent discrepancy between his claims on the performance of his knives and their actual performance when tested independently; he is either gravely mistaken or disingenuous. These are the only two possible conclusions if you believe the two following statements which I do. 1. Joex's tests give decent rough estimates on the durability of blades under abuse 2. The Busses performed poorly in his tests. I did not insult him and was quite fair.

The idea that y’all, or anyone put and stock that morons video vs DECADES of actual use by hundreds of people here not trying to make sensational videos for popularity is beyond comprehension.

 

[willmtn1]

So you think its ok to call Busse a liar and for shmoeX to say he is going to F busse's wife? Thats ok? Yeah, you are likely in the wrong forum if u think thats ok. The guy has no class, that much is obvious. Who's the joeX fanboi? If he had kept it clean and honest, I could deal with that. Hes a turd just like amber hurd.

It's pretty obvious to me that JoeX is more satire than serious knife tester. I would imagine he is a closet Busse fanboi.

The JoeX fanbois/Busse haters are like a pack of dogs, I'm sure one on one they're *mostly* decent people but you throw them into a pack and they revert to licking assholes and red rockets.

I'll say it again - I think Jerry is making money off JoeX.

Having said all that - I definitly fall into the Busse fanboi catagory. LOL I think theres 4 blades in the mail right now. I carry 15 yr old BM pocket knife every day anyways.

JoeX is a troll and he wants to get under peoples skin.

When companies hide their secrets behind screens and marketing jargon it's like slapping awake trolls and haters. I've seen the same stuff in other industries that sell high end, non-essential products like bicycles.

 

[Cobalt]

Edge geometry isn't just about how thick the blade is. It's also about the grind type, where it extends to, blade height, etc. Generally, the further the edge of a knife is from the spine, the more potential there could be for failure if everything else is equal.

Let's say two knives are the same thickness at the spine, but one measures 1.25 inches edge to spine, while the other measures 2.25 inches from edge to spine. All things being equal, the "2.25" inch knife will fail/break more easily under specific types of stress than the other. Think of it like wood wedges and the different ways you could damage or break one.

I agree that the chips in the afbm were catastrophic and shouldn't have occurred. However, they could probably be attributed to something with the heat treatment. We'll never know though because Joe X refused to send the pieces in for analysis, even after Busse offered to pay for the knife and shipping.
Why not send the broken pieces in? Nobody knows for sure except Joe X.

To me, it looks like he doesn't care about anything useful being learned and just wants to push his own biases. He doesn't want his "results" being challenged. He's a hack and wants to stir the pot in hopes of extending his 15 minutes of fame.

To be blunt, the only people I've seen cheer for his "tests" and claim they have any merit seem to be those with a lack of/very limited understanding of several principles involved in knife making/design (not that im claiming to be an expert). His biggest fans and proponents seem to be those that want to justify their bias against higher priced knives. Just my observations.

Agree 100% with everything you said.

 

[Gravelface]

Joe is a fart in the wind……he will be gone soon enough, but even then, his stench will linger.

 

[ScoMa]

Joe is a fart in the wind……he will be gone soon enough, but even then, his stench will linger.

Linger!? Wouldn’t the wind carry the fart away?

 

[Jack of All Blades]

Edge geometry isn't just about how thick the blade is. It's also about the grind type, where it extends to, blade height, etc. Generally, the further the edge of a knife is from the spine, the more potential there could be for failure if everything else is equal.

Let's say two knives are the same thickness at the spine, but one measures 1.25 inches edge to spine, while the other measures 2.25 inches from edge to spine. All things being equal, the "2.25" inch knife will fail/break more easily under specific types of stress than the other. Think of it like wood wedges and the different ways you could damage or break one.

I agree that the chips in the afbm were catastrophic and shouldn't have occurred. However, they could probably be attributed to something with the heat treatment. We'll never know though because Joe X refused to send the pieces in for analysis, even after Busse offered to pay for the knife and shipping.
Why not send the broken pieces in? Nobody knows for sure except Joe X.

To me, it looks like he doesn't care about anything useful being learned and just wants to push his own biases. He doesn't want his "results" being challenged. He's a hack and wants to stir the pot in hopes of extending his 15 minutes of fame.

To be blunt, the only people I've seen cheer for his "tests" and claim they have any merit seem to be those with a lack of/very limited understanding of several principles involved in knife making/design (not that im claiming to be an expert). His biggest fans and proponents seem to be those that want to justify their bias against higher priced knives. Just my observations.

Thank you for staying this. I’ve probably said the same thing 3 times in the last Joe thread.

For the love of god.
YOU CANNOT COMPARE BLADES OF DIFFERENT GEOMETRY (let alone extremely different geometry) WHEN COMPARING STEELS!!!

If the only other blades that preformed better were the WTG Ares and the Tom brown tracker, does that not make you people think “huh I wonder why these two blades that are 90% stock thickness did so well??? I WONDER???”


If I make you a blade of aluminum but it’s 4 inches thick for 75% blade height and 9 inches tall, with a blade length of 9inches.

And pin it against another knife of carbon steel that’s 1inch thick and 5 inches tall with a blade length of 13 inches

I shoot both.

Both fail. But the aluminum was cheaper so HUZZAHH ITS A BETTER KNIFE.


Get out of here.

 

[bladefiend1]

I think that Jerry Busse is a decent and honest person. Probably they simply did not anticipate such tests and loads on the spine when they wrote about this steel. behavior of materials is a complex science and I think that not all manufacturers know all the subtleties. It's just that for a $40 knife you can forgive anything. and a knife for 500 dollars - there are always more demands on it and that’s normal

This is possible and although a grave mistake especially with the claims again from their site "Jerry Busse began making knives full-time in 1982. A decade later in 1992, Jerry and Jennifer Busse incorporated Busse Combat Knife Company with one goal in mind... to become the world leader in extreme performance knives with a warranty that was equally unbeatable." And "
They are even more proud that their initial goal was met early on, never wavered for over twenty years, and is still their primary mission. Busse Combat - The World Leader in Extreme Performance Knives." Would be forgivable. What would not be and this is speculation but it is definitely possible. Is if Busse knives knows that infi is a8 mod. The things that support this is that Larrin Thomas is extremely famous and reputable and if he published an article about infi 4 years ago and it reached people on this forum and had been extensively discussed on this (his forum on which he is mod) it is not entirely unlikely that he has heard of this. In which case why hasn't he addressed it. Why hasn't he paid for independent testing. Either way this is a very serious accusation from a reputable source someone who knows him (perhaps a mod reading this) should let him know if he doesn't and he should have tests conducted on infi asap and if he accidentally did end up cooking up a8 steel he should apologize and remove some of his claims from the website. Despite all of the shade cast on the knives recently although I don't own one I still think they are gorgeous and as far as I can tell they pioneered an entire genre in the 80s and 90s and seemed to perform greatly in the noss tests so I am leaning towards the fact that he is not malicious and something got botched along the way but it is weird that he hasn't come across the the a8 vs infi conversation. Perhaps he has already addressed it somewhere and I haven't seen it in which case I am an idiot and take back this entire comment. If not someone please tell busse to test the steel of their knives and publish what it is.

 

[bladefiend1]

To be clear I understand that the durability of a blade is determined by the steel of which it is made and it's geometry. I also understand that within the paradigm of blade geometry primary grind angle it's height and thickness behind the edge are all much more relevant to impact resistance than stock thickness. That is why I mentioned stock thickness relative to grind height as indicator of toughness. They are the only two properties that can be examined on video because I do not own a Busse knife.

 

[bladefiend1]

To be clear I understand that the durability of a blade is determined by the steel of which it is made and it's geometry. I also understand that within the paradigm of blade geometry primary grind angle it's height and thickness behind the edge are all much more relevant to impact resistance than stock thickness. That is why I mentioned stock thickness relative to grind height as indicator of toughness. They are the only two properties that can be examined on video because I do not own a Busse knife.

Stock thickness is only relevant to lateral strength test (prying) and tip strength

 

[Jack of All Blades]

Durability isn't anywhere near the most important factor in my knife purchases but it is busses claim to fame and the premise by which they distance themselves from other makers and justify charging 600+$ for production knives in an ingot steel. If they don't have that why bother buying them. For the claims on the premise of edge geometry I only have a very simplified understanding of blade geometry relative to some of you but neither the ash2 nor the ergo mistress have particularly thin geometries as far as I can tell... And had plenty of material at the tip and while the afbm has somewhat thin geometry for a chopper it had half inch tall chips after hitting the brick a few times... That is unacceptable for a near 1/4 inch thick knife; the grind isn't that tall ffs. Lastly I think joex tries to break most knives about equally hard ≈95% of the time. It would be easy to spot if you slowed down the footage and and had a basic understanding of physics ( I don't). I do however concede that he almost certainly went easy on the survival Lilly knife; that vid is ridiculous and he got shit on by a lot of people for it deservedly so, I don't know how he got a pass on that. The skrama vid is also suspicious but I am 50/50 on that one. He also claims that aus8 is the toughest steel he has experienced wtf? But overall he seems to go equally hard on most knives and the busses aside from the ash2 which as stated previously did ok were downright fragile and people need to stop making excuses for that.

The Ash 2 and AFBM AND the BMe had vastly different geometries than the other knives that passed joes tests or did better than it. Unless you’re talking about thin machetes that are half the hardness of busse blades and meant to bend and flex wildly.

Everything Busse has stated about their blades is in fact very very true in my uses and I’ve used and abused mine extensively.

They hardly rust at all, and if they do it’s easily removed and only in the surface. My MOASK, which I’m pretty sure is pre-2002 INFI, is extremely hard to rust, even more than the modern stuff.

They are easy to sharpen for their hardness.

They are tougher than other blades of similar geometry and hardness. (See CPK bolt test INFI vs 3V, D3V and Magnacut.)

The AFBM was not acceptable which is why Jerry offered a full refund and for Joe to send back the pieces so we can know if it was a heat treat failure or a design flaw.

You can’t just state that Busses claims are disingenuous as if that is at all truth. They do everything they say they can do. And more because I throw mine all the time as well.

 

[bladefiend1]

Stock thickness is only relevant to lateral strength test (prying) and tip strength

Let me amend that stock thickness is only strongly relevant to these things is also lesser factor in impact resistance.

 

[Gravelface]

This is possible and although a grave mistake especially with the claims again from their site "Jerry Busse began making knives full-time in 1982. A decade later in 1992, Jerry and Jennifer Busse incorporated Busse Combat Knife Company with one goal in mind... to become the world leader in extreme performance knives with a warranty that was equally unbeatable." And "
They are even more proud that their initial goal was met early on, never wavered for over twenty years, and is still their primary mission. Busse Combat - The World Leader in Extreme Performance Knives." Would be forgivable. What would not be and this is speculation but it is definitely possible. Is if Busse knives knows that infi is a8 mod. The things that support this is that Larrin Thomas is extremely famous and reputable and if he published an article about infi 4 years ago and it reached people on this forum and had been extensively discussed on this (his forum on which he is mod) it is not entirely unlikely that he has heard of this. In which case why hasn't he addressed it. Why hasn't he paid for independent testing. Either way this is a very serious accusation from a reputable source someone who knows him (perhaps a mod reading this) should let him know if he doesn't and he should have tests conducted on infi asap and if he accidentally did end up cooking up a8 steel he should apologize and remove some of his claims from the website. Despite all of the shade cast on the knives recently although I don't own one I still think they are gorgeous and as far as I can tell they pioneered an entire genre in the 80s and 90s and seemed to perform greatly in the noss tests so I am leaning towards the fact that he is not malicious and something got botched along the way but it is weird that he hasn't come across the the a8 vs infi conversation. Perhaps he has already addressed it somewhere and I haven't seen it in which case I am an idiot and take back this entire comment. If not someone please tell busse to test the steel of their knives and publish what it is.

Are you just trolling?

Jerry had LaTrobe make Infi, do you not think he knows what steel he works with?!

 

[Jack of All Blades]

I do not own a Busse knife.

Then get one, abuse it then come back and tell us your findings.

Stock thickness is only relevant to lateral strength test (prying) and tip strength

I’m sorry but that’s 100% wrong.

Stock thickness increases all around strength and gives higher momentum , higher impact, higher structural integrity.

Why too many different factors to count change when you change blade geometry/thickness

 

[bladefiend1]

Then get one, abuse it then come back and tell us your findings.


I’m sorry but that’s 100% wrong.

Stock thickness increases all around strength and gives higher momentum , higher impact, higher structural integrity.

Why too many different factors to count change when you change blade geometry/thickness

It's because they are functions of each other?! I immediately amended the statement you are quoting.

 

[Cobalt]

This is possible and although a grave mistake especially with the claims again from their site "Jerry Busse began making knives full-time in 1982. A decade later in 1992, Jerry and Jennifer Busse incorporated Busse Combat Knife Company with one goal in mind... to become the world leader in extreme performance knives with a warranty that was equally unbeatable." And "
They are even more proud that their initial goal was met early on, never wavered for over twenty years, and is still their primary mission. Busse Combat - The World Leader in Extreme Performance Knives." Would be forgivable. What would not be and this is speculation but it is definitely possible. Is if Busse knives knows that infi is a8 mod. The things that support this is that Larrin Thomas is extremely famous and reputable and if he published an article about infi 4 years ago and it reached people on this forum and had been extensively discussed on this (his forum on which he is mod) it is not entirely unlikely that he has heard of this. In which case why hasn't he addressed it. Why hasn't he paid for independent testing. Either way this is a very serious accusation from a reputable source someone who knows him (perhaps a mod reading this) should let him know if he doesn't and he should have tests conducted on infi asap and if he accidentally did end up cooking up a8 steel he should apologize and remove some of his claims from the website. Despite all of the shade cast on the knives recently although I don't own one I still think they are gorgeous and as far as I can tell they pioneered an entire genre in the 80s and 90s and seemed to perform greatly in the noss tests so I am leaning towards the fact that he is not malicious and something got botched along the way but it is weird that he hasn't come across the the a8 vs infi conversation. Perhaps he has already addressed it somewhere and I haven't seen it in which case I am an idiot and take back this entire comment. If not someone please tell busse to test the steel of their knives and publish what it is.

Interesting direction you took. As someone who was there when INFI was introduced I can say that the biggest takeaway from INFI was that it was more of a process than a steel. The steel was a small part of it and I think thats the big misunderstanding. INFI from the beginning was an HT process and a certain steel. Nitrogen was obviously a part of it but the HT as the proprietary part. There was two INFI steels right from the begining. And the performance was slightly dimished in the basic but not that much. The info to be gleaned is that it isnt the steel as much as the processing that was important. The formula for the basics appears to be what ended up becoming later INFI. And thats fine with me. If it came out that modern INFI process is using modA8 or k329 I am fine with that. I am pretty sure no one else is doing 60 to 80 hours of HT on their knives and for the exact same blade geometry, I doubt they will beat INFI. This is all my deduction by the way. INFI, the process is still proprietary, the steel's chem composition can easily be determined at any time. I've done it myltiple times as shown above. Larrin did it once and claimed that all INFI was what he proclaimed. Not sure I would say he is a reliable source. As I said above, one data point does not make a conclusion. I know there is a Larrin fanboi club here. Thats fine. But he was wrong in making that statement and can't own up to it. Is it because he is pushing his own product. Yeah, I did just go there. Since we are being harsh, lets do it in a 360 degree way with those that deserve some of the blame. People should not take things as gospel. If you are going to question Busse's motives you should also question Larrin's motives. To be honest I don't believe either have any motives just trying to make a point. I dont believe Larrin was being underhanded in any way any more than I believe Busse would ever be. But if you are going to go in the conspiracy direction then there is enough ammo to go in other directions.

 

[Jack of All Blades]

It's because they are functions of each other?! I immediately amended the statement you are quoting.

You came here having never owned a Busse Knife ,calling the claims Busse makes false and dishonest. You don’t get to do that then spew whatever you think you know about knives and stock thickness and expect it to be taken as truth. I get playing devils advocate but everything you’ve stated has something to do with bringing Busse down a notch by stating things that are blatantly false.

Stock thickness will increase the overall strength of the blade, doesn’t matter if it’s lateral or not.