Jon 303- unfortunate...

N

Nakano 2

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After 100+ transactions, this time I feel I need to post and for the first time in this forum.

I purchased a used high quality folder from Jon303. After receiving and opening the package I immediately gave it my own "Quality Control" test. I found obvious blade play- side to side and vertical, CONTRARY to one of my few inquiries that he had confirmed prior to agreeing to purchase. Minute pivot pin adjustment would simply lock the blades action.

I also found that the left side pocket clip screw to be stripped. I am also concerned that its respective titanium scale hole is as well.

Additionally, I noticed that the pocket clip holes did not line up exactly with the screw holes.

After several e mail exchanges with Jon concerning this matter, he adamantly maintained and still does that there was no blade play when the folder left his possession. He stated that he made an inspection of the folder when he first obtained it but that I should have inquired about any problems with its pocket clip and screws if I had any doubts as to its condition!! Someone please help me on this one!! He further and incredulously suggested that if I wanted resolution that I contact the previous owner prior to his possession concerning the clip!!

During these e mail exchanges I informed him of my contacts with the maker to see what it would involve to rework these (potential) problems. I also inquired as to any knowledge he (Jon303) had concerning these problems. These were attempts to work with him to reach resolution. But he took great offense and implied I was accusatory in my messages to him, which was untrue. I stated that I simply wanted to work this out at minimal cost and time involved so that both partys would be satisfied.

The maker strongly suggested that the folder be returned for evaluation before making any quotes on work time and possible costs. I had informed Jon but he states that he will do NO MORE than pay for a screw if necessary.

Well, the blade play could be corrected as it is a common symptom of even high quality/ custom folders. The work involved in the screw and its respective hole may well turn out to be quite minimal. Don' t know. But I clearly feel that Jon should make good on this and I was and am still willing to work with him to reach resolution. He did say he was in need of finances in past e mails prior to making the deal. He also stated that the monies he received for this folder was spoken for (spent I guess) and would under no condition, agree to a refund.

Yes, the knife was used, its price was right and unfortunately no offer was made or asked by either partys for either an inspection period nor a refund if not satisfied. I felt it was not needed...But I feel that these problems should be made right by the seller. New or used condition, good price or retail, any problems found immediately after receiving should not be dismissed.

Jon has not answered my last message for a few days now and I indicated that I would take that as him considering this entire matter closed. Is it?

L8r,
Nakano

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"To earn a million is easy, a real friend is not."


[This message has been edited by Nakano 2 (edited 06-29-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Nakano 2 (edited 07-01-2000).]
 
Nakano 2,

I have seen & handled this knife prior to John selling it to you. When I looked over the knife, it had NO BLADE PLAY AT ALL & was ROCK-SOLID WITH A VERY SMOOTH ACTION. All in all I thought the knife was in LIGHTLY used condition. The only thing I personally didn't like about it, was purely asthetic: The bead blast on the blade itself looked a little rough & there seemed to be a bit of staining near the tip on both sides. All in all I feel that it was WELL WORTH the price it sold for & had I had some disposable income at the time I would have bought it myself.

As for Jon: I have dealt with him MANY times & have ALWAYS had GREAT transactions! He's top shelf in my book & I consider him a friend.

Basically, this boils down to ANAL nit-picking in my book. MOVE-ON, pay the few bucks to get the knife reconditioned to your specs & ENJOY the knife! I'm not trying to sound confrontational, but this reminds me of kindergarden! MHO.

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Attila
 
IMO, a seller has an obligation to describe their FS items as fully and completely as necessary to accurately convey the item's condition & appearance. A buyer should not have to ask about each specific aspect of a piece in order to learn about potential flaws. Nevertheless, probvlems can be overlooked and one person's evaluation of "light surface scratches" may be another's "scratched to hell". For these reasons, I firmly believe that buyers should have the right to inspect goods and either accept or reject them upon receipt even if an inspection period was not specified at the time the deal was struck.

About two months ago, I started theRequest For Discussion: Buying, Selling & Trading Guidelines discussion thread on the main forum. There was some initial interest but then, with the impending closure of the FS forums, I let the discussion drop. Now that the forums are open again (Thanks, Mike & Spark), perhaps we should revisit the idea & try again to come up with a set of commonly accepted guidelines.

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Cheers,
Brian

He who finishes with the most toys wins.
 
Without elaborating on the specifics of this particular transaction, it is the responsibility of the seller to present the buyer with an item as described. This is what the buyer is spending his money for. As far as I'm concerned it's the same as an over the counter exchange. If anything, additional precautions are needed to insure a successful transaction.

If a blade is described as having no blade play, and upon receipt it does have blade play, the seller should try to make the transaction good, or take the knife back and refund the monies. To deny the problem, or the degree of the problem, and refuse to assist in correcting it casts suspicion on the intent of the seller. If the seller suspects damage in transit, the matter should be taken up with the transportation company. It's not the buyer's problem.

On the other hand, if the buyer is wrong, or being anal about something - it's his money that's being spent. Simply reverse the transaction - there's another buyer out there, and you'll have the knowledge aforehand about this particular buyer, and choose not to deal with them again.

Sellers need to protect themselves, with insurance and photos where possible, and accurate descriptions that detail minute flaws, and not spend the funds until the transaction is completed. Buyers should always have the option of returning a mail ordered purchase within 24 hours of receipt.

Brian's guidelines are a smart way to go, whether "officially" accepted or not.


Nick
 
The one thing when selling a knife,if possible detail the condition as accuratly as you can.If the knife had a stripped head on the screw,the right thing to do is to volunteer that info.I feel I shouldn't have to ask if the hardware is stripped on a knife,as used doesn't mean trashed to me,unless otherwise noted.Bladeplay is a little harder to portray,as most folders move a little vertically or horizontally when enough pressure is applied,after all its not a fixed blade,its when play is excessive or blade is wobbly then there may be some concern.well just a thought,Ralph
 
Hello Attila. I had expected you to post quickly and decisively since Jon had mentioned in a past e mail that you can vouch for him and that you had inspected the folder. Based on your last descriptive comments it is clear that you and Jon have conversed in detail concerning this matter since you simply dismissed the entire matter. Again, price does NOT dismiss any problems immediately discovered especially when the selling party was notified soon after. Take one of your 4 figure (at least close to) JSPs for example. Say you got a great deal from the maker himself because you are a loyal and repeat customer. Then you discover that it had irregular grind lines or discoloration due to improper curing procedures. Oh , Jim P. says but you got it at a few hundred dollars off, so move on, send it back and I' ll correct it at a nominal fee! NOT! Is it a bit clearer now Attila?? Besides, Jon had confirmed the importance of making many and specific inquiries as to the condition of his folder prior to my buying it. He further stated that the potential money spent was no chicken feed.

Hi Ralph. You make some very good points concerning detecting blade play. Some folders, based on their inherent design, such as the BM AFCK will have blade play and/ or FLEX. Sometimes it is a bit harder to distiguish. However, I have this folder in my hands at this very second and with a very firm grip on its scales with one hand and the other on the blade, and when I rock it back and forth like trying to snap a pencil, blade play is EASILY detected. Again, a few very tiny movements of the pivot pin would result in a tight binding of the blade action. ATTILA: you had inspected this folder PRIOR to knowing that I would purchase it from Jon. And you had no idea that these problems would occur. So is it not possible that your current standing that there was no blade play when you inpected it is a bit biased? Were you specifically looking for blade play when you were handling it? JON: is it not possible that your level of acceptable amounts of blade play may differ from others? Keep in mind that I made NO accusatory statements in my messages to you. I simply made inquiries as to the possible origins of these problems. NOTE: I did not know that you were NOT the original owner of this folder until AFTER I had contacted you after receiving it.

As previously posted, the blade play can be corrected probably without or at best for only very minimal cost. But my concerns for the corresponding screw hole in its titanium scale may be a different story. How in the world would I know to ask for any and every little potential problem prior to making an agreement to buy?? Brian and Ralph seems to feel the same...

L8r,
Nakano



[This message has been edited by Nakano 2 (edited 07-02-2000).]
 
Nakano 2:

No. It is NOT "a bit" clearer to me. If I were to purchase a maker's knife for a "few hundred" off & noticed some blemishes or faults in the construction when I was about to purchase it, I would ask for it to be repaired. If the maker asks a nominal fee for the service I would pay it. I am not the type of person to dick around on a few dollars. If I am to pay the REGULAR asking price, then I naturally expect it to be as close to perfect as possible. If not, I just won't buy it.

As for me seeing & looking at the knife before it was sold to you: How can I be BIASED??? That's ludicrous! As I stated above, there was nothing out of the ordinary about it. I didn't put it thru a flurry of testing, just worked the action, checked the lock-up & looked at the state of the BB on the blade. When I handled it, it had NO BLADE PLAY WHATSOEVER!

Look:
I am giving MY OPINION on this matter. If you are that unsatisfied, sell the knife. I KNOW you will get MORE than you paid into it.

Also, some ppl will sell things WITHOUT an inferred return of funds. To that I say: CAVEAT EMPTOR. Correct me if you have it in WRITING, but I don't think there was a return policy set up in your deal. It was sold AS IS. Personally I generally have a return policy on my trade/sales. But if I too had dire need of the money at the time, I would NOT agree to a return. I have done ALOT of buying/selling on these forums & have ALWAYS had GREAT success!

I've said my piece. Good luck to you.

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Attila




[This message has been edited by Attila (edited 07-02-2000).]
 
I do not know the original description of the knife in the for sale post, and like others have said, blade play is a bit arbitrary. Some flex or slight movement is quite common on some models of knives, while there is virtualy no movement in others.

A screw that has been removed and either cross-threaded or stripped, by a past owner and not mentioned is not excusable.

If the purchaser notices an obvious defect and tells the seller right away, the seller should be obligated to either fix the problem or take the knife back minus shipping charges. There does not need to be a witten agreement about this, it is just the right thing to do. I do not cash ANY money orders that I receive from a knife sale until I verify that the purchaser is happy. PERIOD.

Attila,

Even if you checked over the knife, and found it to be OK, that doesn't mean that Nakano thinks it is OK too. And irregardless, that does not give you the right to fight Jon 303's fight for him. And it definitely doesn't give you the right to go around calling people names and insinuating that they are on a lower level than you. A few dollars to someone else might be a lot of money, even if it is not a lot for you.

And BTW, I have had many dealings with Nakano in the past and ALL of them have gone off without a single problem.

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C.O.'s-"It takes balls to work behind the walls "
 
Well, I think this is just one more reason that people should adopt Brian Caffrey's rules for buying and selling knives on the forums. If we could come up with a final version of the rules that the majority of people could live by, we'd have a chance at having fewer of these kind of posts. If buyers and sellers would only deal with other forumites who agreed to abide by those rules, then it would begin to catch on quickly - whether or not they became the "official" rules and were sanctioned by Mike and Spark.

When I sell a knife on the forums, I try to understate the condition of the knife so the buyer won't be disappointed. Still I find myself a little apprehensive and wonder whether I mentioned every little flaw until the buyer gives the word that all is OK with the knife. I guess that philosophy works - I've yet to have a knife returned to me.

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Kelly
My Custom Knife Collection
AKTI Member #A000289

Deo Vindice
 
Do you think we really need more rules around here tho? I mean, buying and selling between induviduals seems you are taking a risk. If there are obviuos defects and you feel you just totally got ripped off, yeah, I could see trying to get your money back, but, you are dealing with individual purcahses and both parties are at risk in a transaction. As far as "blade play" goes on knives, like it was stated, to one person it may be minimal, to the buyer it may be a disaster. So who is right ? I have had only one return since I've been dealing on the internet.. it was a microtech and the guy said it had too much blade play and was sloppy....well. needless to say, that was non-sense, and 3 other people that saw the blade after I got it back, thought that was ludicrous also. But, me as a dealer, I took it back, no questions asked.......but, in a individual case, where do the boundaries fall? I do not think "individuals" should fall under the same obligation as dealers do. It would seem to me, the GBU is your place to let your problems be known,(whwich is what is going on here) and then the next person that comes along, should be more careful in dealing with a problem individual trader. I guess you have an option to pass on the transaction or get it from a dealer, if it is something that is available from a dealer, which is not always the case. Just my .02 worth fellas, wheter it is right or wrong.

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Knives & Things
Mike Payne
 
I'm not aware that we've had any rules around here regarding transactions between two individuals. As for risk, that what we're trying to reduce. If these guidelines catch on, those that don't agree to abide by them will have a harder time doing business with forumites - and rightly so IMHO.

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Kelly
My Custom Knife Collection
AKTI Member #A000289

Deo Vindice
 
BTW - If Nakano's account is correct, and Jon 303 had been willing to follow these guidelines, his name wouldn't be tarnished in this thread.
 
Thanks to all for your support and sharing your thoughts thus far.

ATTILA: I had already stated that no return policy nor inspection period was asked for nor offered. *Again, I felt there wasn' t a need to... JAILHACK put it rather well. Sometimes, as is the case here, it really is only the right thing to do. I' ll have to say though, if I read your last reply correctly concerning paying additional for reworking for a brand NEW knife, then I' d invite you to one of the businesses I help operate and will sell you every bike I have in inventory!!

BCaffreys proposal for a uniform policy of sales is sound. I read about his post of a transaction he was involved in where there was injustice. But I' m afraid it may not work for everybody. I' m not against it but just not too sure. A great amount of details would need to be discussed.

MPAYNE makes very good points concerning more rules. Hi Mike. Individual transactions are a bit risky for sure and there are no guarantees for it being %100 smooth. Mike is a standup guy for offering to accept the return of the MT. He had done the same for a folder (a BM AFCK!!) I received when we last made a trade. But that was worked out, without having to resort to rules. He simply did the right thing. BTW, BM confirmed this particular problem and remedied it.

Ralph (TOMBSTONE), my last reply was just comfirming how you felt concerning blade play and that I agree with you. My comment about how I detected it was aimed at the general readership, not specifically at you.

L8r,
Nakano

 
Nakano 2,

LOL! I guess you misunderstood my above post. Although I beleive I worded it correctly & in plain english... I'll reiterate:

Yes, I have seen NEW customs which had flaws. Yes, If I were to get a "few hundred" off on one & I liked it, I would buy it... AND pay to have it brought back to snuff.

I'll pass on the bikes...
wink.gif
If you are still selling Tuff-Cloth & the large bottles of Tuff-Glide, gimme a holler. I can use some in the near future.

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Attila


[This message has been edited by Attila (edited 07-03-2000).]
 
Originally posted by Nakano 2:
MPAYNE makes very good points concerning more rules. (snip...)

He had done the same for a folder (a BM AFCK!!) I received when we last made a trade. But that was worked out, without having to resort to rules. He simply did the right thing.
Click to expand...

Well, not exactly. According to Mike's website (my emphasis added):

RETURN POLICY- We will not ship a defective product to you. Upon receipt of merchandise, you have 48 hours to contact us if there is a problem. If the item needs to be returned for a refund becuase you are dissatisfied, we will offer you a refund MINUS shipping cost, a replacement item, or credit towards another purchase.

Mike has rules too.
smile.gif
I suspect that if Mike didn't have these rules in place, not many people would buy from him. I also suspect that if buyers (like Nakano) knew that individual sellers (like Jon303) had no intention of refunding money for a defective knife, that few people would enter into the transaction in the first place.

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Kelly
My Custom Knife Collection
AKTI Member #A000289

Deo Vindice
 
Hey Senator..
smile.gif
Yep, certainly I have some guidlines for dealing. Anyone that purchases from me, I want them to know I will stand by service and my word as a businessman. Actually the BM800AFCK Nakano was talking about was a personal knife of mine I traded to him. For me as a dealer, even tho it is "my own" knife or one NIB, it would make no difference to me. I am going to try and give satisfaction as best I can. That was an incident that Nakano felt the knife I traded him was not up to par and not what he expected.We talked & he opted to send the knife back to BM. He traded me Tuff-Cloths for it. When he told me it was not quite what he expected, I "immediately" offered a resolution to refund the Tuff-Cloths or actually buy them from him and have him send the knife back to me. I think Nakano would agree that I made every effort possible to remedy the situation and hope that in the future he consider doing business with me again. It boiled down to my opinion against his, and trade like that would not be worth ruining my almost "flawless" reputation that I have worked hard to keep.
Let's face it, we have a great community here of guys and probably 99.5% of the trades go pretty dang good. As Brandon said, using commonsense is a great thing. A person that rips off a BF member is doing himself more harm in the long-run. I know for me, most of the time, if someone buys a knife NIB from me and pays with a cashiers check, I do not even deposit it until I know that are satisfied. The same with PayPal payments, I will not withdraw the funds until I'm satisfied that the customer is satisfied.

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Knives & Things
Mike Payne
 
I agree with everything you said, Mike. It's a good policy you have. That's why I'd like to see some more discussion on the common-sense guidelines (gee, that sorta makes me sound like Clinton talking about gun control, huh? Yikes! Just forget I ever said anything!
eek.gif
) that Brian Caffrey has put together. That way there wouldn't be any misunderstandings between parties when buying and selling here on the forums. Whether or not they become the "official" rules of the forum or not is not really the issue. However, if they became the unofficial rules, then I'd be real wary of dealing with someone who refused to agree to the rules, wouldn't you?

[This message has been edited by Senator (edited 07-03-2000).]
 
Hi All,
Thanks for any support (whoever you are besides Attila). I've been away for the weekend so I have not had a chance to speak on my behalf. Now, when I sent the knife it was fine, there was no play. I do not know how over the course of several days that play could have mysteriously developed. As for the screw, I did not notice it's condition until it was told to me by Nakano, and told him that would be all that I would be willing to pay for. It was not my doing, and I should not be responsible for it, but still if he wanted that replaced I offered. No for the clip not being lined up, I had never taken the knife apart or removed the clip. I had no reason nor did I have any desire too.
It's unfortunate Nakano is unhappy with the knife. I would have agreed to a refund if he wished prior to making the deal. I'm not in this to rob anyone of anything or rip them off, I don't like being made unhappy and would not want to make anyone else unhappy either. Also, last I checked there were no "rules" to buying and selling on this forum. By which I mean that the seller has a responsibility to make the buyer happy. If I were a businessman I would have a policy of some kind most assuredly. I am not a businessman, I am an individual, a college student who needs money and who shouldn't even be buying knives. Knowing what I know now, I will no longer deal with Nakano, and be more conscientous when dealing with ANYONE on the forums.
In the past I have never had any problems with those I've dealt with. I haven't dealt with a ton a of people, but probably around 25-30 of them either buying or selling knives on the forum. Not once have I received any complaints from them. It's probably fitting that in my second transaction with Nakano he would be jut as unhappy as he was in dealing with me the first time. My question to him was, knowing what you knew, why did you choose to deal with me again?
It appears that I am already guilty being judged before I had even a chance to speak, that I suppose is keeping up with the unspoken "rules" right guys? I did not feel the slightest twine of guilt at all, because I have nothing to feel guilty about. I did not lie, I told everything about the knife to the best of my ability to Nakano. I'm actually surprised that he didn't asked for me to check for fingerprints and/or give him some blood and urine sample results to go along with the knife. If any of you knew how much that knife went for, I think you would have been happy for what you got, considering the "deal" I gave him (which I'm still feeling the effects of), you'd know. That's all I really have to say on the matter, and if you want rules on the forum for buying and/or selling, make them explicit. I don't sell things on this forum to make a profit, I never have. People will always be picky and never be satisfied, if anything that's what I've learned twice in dealing with Nakano. That's all I have to say,

Jon
 
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