Jon 303- unfortunate...

Jon, I will still maintain as you have that there was and still blade play when I checked the knife immediately after receiving it. I have no reason to make claims that are contrary. I was satisfied with all of your confirmations to my inquiries concerning this folder prior to my agreeing to purchase it. Upon receiving I acknowledged that the blade and its edge was in very good condition. I stated that the fine handling marks were not a issue. The lockup location where the liner makes contact with its blade tang was at center or less as you' ve confirmed. All I had acknowledged save for the blade play. I' ve previously stated that this was a common symptom in even high quality folders and that the maker would in all probability correct it without cost or at the most, minimal.

Putting the blade play aside, let' s talk about the stripped screw and possibly the corresponding hole in its scale. You were quite defensive and implied an accusatory tone in my e mail inquiry when I had discovered this problem(s). All I did was make an inquiry as to its origin by asking if you knew anything about it. I actually gave you the benefit of the doubt and certainly did not jump all over you. Based on this last response of yours by dismissing it so quick as you did before in our e mail exchanges, it seems that your statements are fast becoming less valid. BTW, you also did say that you checked the folder prior to shipping and if your need to sell it for $ was so dire then surely you would have given it a more thorough check.

I also stated in one of my messages to you that I would immediately offer to remedy any problem if I were in your place. As far as I' m concerned it really is the right thing to do. What if someone purchases one of your other folders you recently posted and discovered a similar situation? What would you do... what would you do?

As for my first trade with you, not a purchase, I found the same vertical play in that folder! But that was due to a quality control problem with the liner lock not fully engaging. This condition was so obvious that I can honestly say without reserve, there is just no chance for this to be missed! In any case, I sent it back to Kershaw and they had confirmed this problem and I was fortunate enough to be able to choose another model of similar cost. If I were to ship it back, then why not just to Kershaw as I did? It would cost the same to ship it back to you. And you would then have to ship mine back to me. Isn' t it clear? I had offered to resolve the problem without further time and costs involved so that both partys would be satisfied. And by the way, I was quite cordial during all of those e mail exchanges as I was with this recent transaction. Sometimes one has to help a little and perhaps others would do the same.

Now as far as I being the only one to complain in all of your transactions, well maybe YOU are the only one I had felt the need to complain about! As you put it, TWICE! Well actually, a few recent transactions I made had some hitches but all of them were resolved without resorting to posting. From either partys involved. Please read about Mike Payne in his recent reply. MIKE: all is cool with me.

Again with your bringing up the nice price, as Attila had, it still does NOT dismiss flaws/ problems found upon immediate inspection! Okay, the price was $235 plus a Tuff cloth (about $10 MSRP)for the used (2 owners BTW which you did not tell me until I contacted you about problems!) folder. It retails for $375. I beileve you posted it for $260 or so. Yes, price was right but it is not as if you posted it for the retail of $375. But isn' t $245 a good deal of money? Especially for a college student who "shouldn' t even be buying knives"? Hmmm... I thought so.

to be continued...



[This message has been edited by Nakano 2 (edited 07-06-2000).]
 
Alrighty,

Where to begin?

Now, I will still maintain there was no blade play, as I will maintain I did not remove the screw.

About your not "having anything to gain," you most certainly have everything to gain, you want to have the knife checked and fixed at my cost, assuming it has play to begin with. What do I have to gain? Loosing face to someone like yourself who I shouldn't have bothered dealing with even in needing the money that badly. My integrity is at sake, and I will not give in to your accusation of blade play nor will I stoop and let you trample my reputation on the forums.

So I'm guilty by being defensive about the screw? When I offer to have that replaced, you get upset? That makes more sense than the rest of your post. Regarding my "statements becoming less and less valid," why don't you call me a liar then? It saves type and space for those reading. If I was in dire need of money don't you think I'd spend less time checking the knife and more time trying to get it sold?

If I were in your shoes, I would eat the
loss, which isn't much of a loss anyway. I'd eat the cost of shipping to have something fixed that wasn't broken to begin with. Even if it is, why has it become my responsibility? Isn't the maker responsible? Like I said, I had no desire to take or remove the clip. I do not use sheaths. What possibility is there for me to have wanted to take the clip off? As for the knives I'm selling now, I am willing to negotiate before the transaction occurs, to their satisfaction. I don't HAVE to do that. What you don't understand Kin, is that I am not under some sort of written or unspoken obligation to make everyone happy. Whenever you buy something, you take a risk, when you buy something used, you take a greater risk. It is a lot of money for sure, but you should have accepted that risk to begin with. You based your dealings with me, on one previous transaction and one previous meeting, that is hardly enough to even call an acquaintance.

Onto the Kershaw trade. We discussed the details prior to sending the knives, and I had told you there was blade play, to me, it was little, slight. Now I told you the condition and when you received the knife you simply verified it. But it was still not apparently up to par with your "gold" standard. I told you the truth then, why would I lie about this knife now? Do you think I planned this out so that I could get you to buy another one of my knives?

Now, why do you expect me to pay for the cost of having the knife sent back to Pat? Also, knowing him, after meeting him, he would probably charge you for the screw Kin, you would seriously be surprised (also would probably charge you to have a look at it too). He has/had been one of the most unsavory makers I had spoken to about a knife in person that I can last remember. He would not look into adjusting the lock up of my other KFF when I asked. When I did ask him about it sticking quite a bit (needing two hands to close on occasion) He told me, "Bob (Kasper) designed the lock that way to prevent it from accidentally closing..." Oh sure Pat, how about, maybe you should have given that one a better look at before it left the shop??? Also don't get me started about his "irregular" thumbramp. Enough about Pat.

Next, I only wish Mike would speak up, but since he is in a position which it would be unwise for him to do so, I respect that. But I hope he knows that my reputation is under fire now, because of his unwillingness to do so.

I really have nothing to say about the price. It was a good deal of money. Now, it also is a good deal of money for a college student. Now, why in (I can't even think of an expletive) wouldn't I be selling the knife?!?! Kin, the concept works this way, I NEED money so I SELL something FOR money. Do you understand that?

And finally Kin, you seriously do take things far too seriously, when I said I "shouldn't even be buying knives" I meant that half heartedly as I don't need more than the ones I have. I wasn't referring it specifically to the fact that I'm a college student and need money. You got that? If not email me and I'll go over it with you, or I could ask one of the other forumites explain it to you a little more clearly,

jon

[This message has been edited by jon303 (edited 07-06-2000).]

[This message has been edited by jon303 (edited 07-06-2000).]
 
Originally posted by jon303:
Whenever you buy something, you take a risk, when you buy something used, you take a greater risk. It is a lot of money for sure, but you should have accepted that risk to begin with
Click to expand...

Whenever you sell something, you take a risk, Whenever you sell something used, you take a greater risk. Whenever you sell something used while refusing to refund the buyers money in the event that the buyer is unhappy with the product, you run the greatest risk of all - having your reputation called into question on this public forum. Caveat emptor.

------------------
Kelly
My Custom Knife Collection
AKTI Member #A000289

Deo Vindice
 
As you can see from my number of postings I am still a new guy on this forum, but I have to reply to this. I have never in my life ever seen two grown men pissing and moaning as much as Nakano 2 and Jon 303, although I believe Nakano 2 has the right to piss and moan. Nakano 2, obviously Jon 303 is not going to do the right thing and take back the knife and refund your money or pay to get it fixed, as he should. He does not consider himself in the knife business even tho he buys and sells knives and says Buyer Beware. I say any buyer or trader should be very Aware of dealing with Jon 303 if this is the way he does business, the buyer should always have the right to call off a buy or trade deal at any time and the seller has an obligation to make the deal right. Nakano 2 you are not blameless in this deal either, if you had a previous bad experience with Jon 303, why would you put yourself in this position again, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Nakano 2 eat your loss and move on, you will never get satisfaction from Jon 303. Now Jon 303 I hope that one of the courses that you take in your college curriculum happens to be ETHICS because you really need to know what that word means and how a persons Ethics is how he will be judged by others and You are lacking in this area by whining that it is not my fault, the previous owner must have screwed up the knife, Nakano 2 bought the knife from you not the previous owner and it was your responibility to inspect and verify any problems with the knife. Adults take responsibility for actions and don't try to place blame on others. If you are going to buy, sell, or trade knives then you are going to learn you can't please everyone you deal with, but you can't buy, sell, or trade knives and then claim that you can't be held responsible because I am not really in this business I just do it as a hobby and for the good of my fellow man andI never make a profit and I am just a college student. Start behaving like a man and do the right thing even if you disagree. Sometimes adults have to bite the bullet and do something unpleasant and this is one of those times.You have already lost this fight just by having your name put in this forum and by the lack of support for your position. I know that I will never deal with either Nakano 2 or Jon 303 no matter how good of a deal it seems to be. JMHO as an outside observer
 
Tambourineman,

First off welcome.

I do not know where you get the whining and moaning from. I do not have any problem with Nakano's accusations. When my credibility came into account, that's where I began to have problems. I didn't have a chance or opportunity to respond because I was away, yet I was already judged by those that were here. As far as I'm concerned, I stand by my assessment of the knife's condition when it left my house. You did not physically see the knife, so that apsect makes you unfit to determine where the truth is.

I will not say Nakano is lying. Something may indeed have happened in shipping, but I will not accept responsibility for that. As for what doing the right thing is, I don't think you have the right to say what the "right" thing in this instant is. If the "right" thing is to make Nakano happy, then no, I will still refuse because I stand by the statement I had/have made conerning the knife. By doing what is "right" you want me to forfeit any shred of honesty that any of you may even think I have left, seeing as how you all seem to think I am the guilty party here because of my lack of posts and presence on the forums. Mind you I have been on here since it started, though I have not posted much, I have been aware of the goings on here. Never have I expected or asked for a refund when I was unhappy when buying a knife off the forum from an individual. It wasn't something I had ASSUMED was part of the deal. When you buy it you own it. I got ripped once or twice when a knife I bought was not what I had agreed upon with the seller. That is of course some sort of agreement is made beforehand.

Also, I am NOT in the knife business. Nakano however 'could' have purchased a KFF at dealer cost because of where he works, why he didn't is far beyond me seeing as how it was pretty close to what I was selling this particular KFF for.

As for your comments

You Said
"I say any buyer or trader should be very Aware of dealing with Jon 303 if this is the way he does business, the buyer should always have the right to call off a buy or trade deal at any time and the seller has an obligation to make the deal right."
That's all that is, what you think. There are no "rules" on this buying and selling forum, I don't think I should have to remind you. If you hang around awhile you'll notice that. Also, there may be "unspoken" rules, but they are unspoken, and if they are not brought up before the transaction is made, how am I to know or even how is the buyer to know?

Truth be told (if that means anything to you guys anymore), in any other transaction I would have considered refunding money. I was in a situation where I could not refund the money because of my situation.

In my future transactions I am making a note of it to potential buyers. It is NOT an obligation on my part to make anyone happy, I am however going to try to, seeing as how that's the way things work around here. As for Nakano being to partially be at blame, I would agree with you Tambourineman, as I should have probably known better as well, that is a valid and good point you have brought up.

As for my lacking ETHICS, I don't think you would be in the position to judge whether or not I do lack them. (I think attacking someone you hardly know by saying they lack ethics, speaks for itself) I don't know how childish you think I am, but I take that accusing me of "lacking in that area" as a personal attack and not being very mature at all. You aren't qualified to judge me based one experience. You have secondhand knowledge and don't even know me personally. I guess I should respect your opinion which I will, but will say that you are in NO position to judge my character.

I don't know how many times I have to say it, but I inspected the knife and did not notice the stripped screw, when Nakano told me about it I offered to pay to have that replaced. Nothing more. The blade play as far as I'm concerned was nonexistent. I would not pay to have that checked. Nakano's beef is the blade play. I was unaware of the screw, and if he desired I would have had that replaced. His main concern was regarding the play and the mis-threaded screw-hole to the clip. I never removed the screw so how in blazes would I know that it was threaded improperly?

"Start behaving like a man,"
Oh really? Did I attack anyone's character like a child? Hmmm, I'm not sure you would be qualified to say anything about me characteristically in that regard either, like I said you do not know me and have no right whatsoever to tell me how to act.

"JMHO as an outside observer" I think that's fairly obvious. I respect your opinion, but everybody's got an *******, like everybody's got an opinion. I don't have to like it but I respect it nonetheless. This situation sits and it will never come to any sort of fruition, because I refuse to let any shred of integrity I have left be diminished by the likes of yourself or Nakano. It's not worth the aggravation, and honestly, it's not even worth my time to bother.

To Nakano, if there is to be any resolution, I will pay to have the knife shipped to and from Pat's shop and for the screw. As for anything else, the mis-threaded nature of it or the blade play, I will not cover. That is as far as I wish to go. I want this to end really as it's draining any interest I have left on this board, knowing that so many of you already assume I am the bad guy. As for refunding the money, I honestly wish I could have at the time. I was not in it to make a quick buck. I was in dire need of the money and that was the situation. Please take this consideration to heart so we do not bring more bickering individuals into this (like Mr. Tambourineman) who do not even know us. That's all I can offer for you, if you want to take me up on this, please email me. Honestly Nakano, I don't know why Tambourineman is making attacks at me, as he is in no real position to. If anything I would have expected it from the person who was upset at me individually. So in that respect I hold you in high regard that in the pasts few posts you had refrained from letting your temper go.
If this can be put behind us, my interest will hopefully linger and things will return to normal, otherwise I will have to leave the forums, to avoid anymore of this.

Sorry to take anymore of anyone's time, but that's all I've got to say for now.

Jon

[This message has been edited by jon303 (edited 07-08-2000).]
 
Just want to chime in and say that I've dealt with Jon before, and never had any problem. On a side note, I remember a BM856 which had serious blade play one day, then none the next (actually, this happened to me). Maybe something similar occurred, with all the vibration and jarring which postal travel entails.

--JB

------------------
e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
I originally posted on this forum because after a thorough attempt to reach resolution from Jon 303, he had stop responding to my messages. I have stated all the facts of this situation as accurately and fairly as possible without resorting to any personal attacks unlike a few others who had used some rather colorful descriptives. Like it or not though, I guess all is free to post as long as they sign up as a member. And I welcome any experiences that they may want to share as long as it is constructive. I was also hoping that this may bring a different light to Jon 303 and that he may see it from a different perspective.

Some of the contents in my past replys are becoming repetitive and that may be making this thread seem old. But I will say this only one more time:

IN ALL FAIRNESS TO ALL PARTYS INVOLVED, THERE WAS NO AGREEMENT MADE FOR AN INSPECTION PERIOD NOR FOR A REFUND PRIOR TO AGREEING TO MAKING THIS TRANSACTION. (Sorry for yelling). If I simply did not like its apearance in shape, color, finish or its ergonomics and materials, etc. then I would have no basis for demanding any sort of resolution. HOWEVER, the knife was received and inspected and was not as described and confirmed. And additionally, a physical flaw was discovered. This is the basis for which my demand for resoultion is based on.

As for damaged in transit/ shipping, it is highly unlikely. If a blade comes loose, it would be due to a pivot pin backing out a bit. But as I already stated, turning the pivot pin just a few hairs in an attempt to remove all play would lock the blades action almost completely! There is no other signs of any physical damage to the folder nor to its padded paper mailer envelope.

I' ve already decided that the folder will be sent back to Pat to be evaluated and reworked. It is already packed and ready to go. My relationship with the makers have been nothing but exemplary over a period of several years, both in person and during correspondence. They are some of the friendliest folks I' ve ever met and Pat has always listened to my comments and feedback about his products. Never had any disagreements with them.

to be continued... (for fear of being disconnected!)


 
... Mr. Tambourineman, concerning doing business a second time with Jon 303 and Jon 303 rewind to your 07/06/00 post. You mentioned that I based my dealings with you on a single previous transaction and a one time meeting. That is true. When we first met at the November NY Knife Show you had introduced yourself to me and recalled that we did that first deal with the Kershaw folder. I explained that it was sent back to warranty and that the problem was resolved. It was really not a huge problem with me. We both seem to be satisfied with that and it was discussed no further. So I did not consider that a BAD experience as MR. T had phrased it. In fact I had met ATTILA for the first time when we were sitting around the table of the "usual suspects" with Les Robertson passing around one of his 4 digit Emerson customs. I also met RDT, fq55 (Frank), Justin, BCaffrey again as well as Rugger and a few others. I sold a few Sentry stuff, made some nice trades, made a few nice purchases had some enjoyable conversations and was happy to meet the faces of the names behind the forums. Based on this I felt it no problem to do business with you a second time. I did consider that one time meeting an acquaintence meet. Unfortunately (as is the namesake of this original thread which was purposeful and intentional) it seems that I incorrectly assumed the same. And I guess not all of us feel the same way...

Well, gotta get some z' s. Racetime registration is at 6:00 am...

L8r,
Nakano



[This message has been edited by Nakano 2 (edited 07-08-2000).]
 
I just wanted to post that I had a totally smooth, hassle free transaction with Jon just this last week. I purchased a Kershaw Mini-Task that he had posted for sale on the board. He gave an exact description of the knife, including the very minor blemish on the clip. He went to far as to send me a picture of the knife with the blemish highlighted by computer graphics, as the mark was so slight that it wouldn't show up in a normal scan.

Jon was very courteous and delivered the knife quickly in the promised condition. I would gladly do business with him again.


------------------
James Segura
San Francisco, CA
 
Seems like a lot of trouble over nothing. If Nakano was not happy with the knife once he received it, he should have been able to send it immediatly back for a refund. Anyone should have the right to inspect something and have the right to return it if they are not happy with it. Nuff said.

------------------
Danbo, soul brother of Rambo
 
Speaking as an antique dealer of 30 years, and having done a considerable bit of mail order, I have found that offering a return privelege is the best policy. Personally I would never buy any thing sight unseen without a return privelege. Nor would I sell anything without offering an inspection period and a no questions asked return policy, the buyer paying the postage both ways, incurring an expense, same as if they had driven to my shop. Three days as a time frame seems to work very well. Another suggestion I would make is to place a small numbered sticker on the merchandise that can't be removed without damaging the little sticker. This helps avoid the unscrupulous buyer switching items. i.e., their not-so-good item for your good item. Dealing at a distance is a bit more complicated than saying "no thank you, I believe I'll pass on this one" face to face, but a little common sense can prevail. Caveat Emptor needs to apply only when there is no accountable person to stand behind the item. "The customer is always right" has always worked for me, no matter what the merchandise.
 
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