JS Testing

Actually i said they should issue standardized templates so as to stifle all creativity, but, stormcrow said it better than I .:D

now before that little comment sets some teeth loose you must know this about me - I am a donkey chapeau
 
are you guys saying that design should not be a criteria for judging?
 
I too feel that the extra belly comment is puzzling. To my tastes in a working knife of the kind you posted, the amount of belly is a boon, not a negative. If the reasoning could be explained further it would be appreciated.

My favorite design is the full tang hunter, I look forward to seeing your test knives in the future- good luck putting in the hard work!
 
I'm saying that arbitrary matters of personal taste shouldn't be criteria for judging. I don't like ricassos; if I were in the unlikely position of being an ABS judge, I would not let my personal aversion to ricassos get in the way of saying whether a candidate's blades were worthy of getting a JS stamp or not.
 
An what I'm saying is that, if there is a specific design element that must be followed the potential apprentice should be made aware of those specifications.

It might be better to ask why the maker gave the knife that profile.
 
My understanding is that design is not necessarily a criteria for judging at the JS level, however, form does follow function. From what I saw in the pictures, it seems that two of the knives have more of a blunt point issue than a belly issue, but, by reducing the belly, this problem would be addressed. It is very difficult to create ABS style distal taper with a knife that has an abrupt flow to the point as these knives have. Although design is not the focus at the JS level, playing with design forces the judges (who are typically masters and have been judged on design from an ABS perspective) to consider it. You can challenge the system by putting certain design features in your knives that buck the system, but you need to pull off all the core elements at a high level if you do because you will draw more attention to your knives by doing so. If you want to get a degree from school, its easiest if you follow all the rules. Once you have your degree, then you can put it to work any way you like. That's just my two cents worth, but I think Burt and Jason have given him good advice.
 
EScott said:
Mike,
Jason and burt have been my mentors also. They will not lead you astray. I passed my JS in January. The only things I will add to the list is to bring an emergency repair kit (fine sand paper, flitz...), I found a scratch on one of my knives at 10:30 the night before the test, and try to have a backup knife, number 6, I changed my lineup at 1:30 in the morning. Look forward to seeing you at BLADE. My wife and I shoot a little traditional archery also. We liked that Flu-Flu, the wife wants to know what you shoot and what you shoot with. Work hard and be honest with yourself you can be your own hardest critique.
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Thanks for the advice. I really hope to have a number six by the time I leave for Blade. Tell your wife I shoot an Assenheimer recurve. I have two and I love them! They are smooth, fast shooters and very well made. What do you guys shoot? I make my own flu-flus but this one was made for me.
 
Storm Crow said:
I'm saying that arbitrary matters of personal taste shouldn't be criteria for judging. I don't like ricassos; if I were in the unlikely position of being an ABS judge, I would not let my personal aversion to ricassos get in the way of saying whether a candidate's blades were worthy of getting a JS stamp or not.
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I should mention that when Jason and Burt were offering their critiques they never said any one design issue was "bad". I think it was more like words of experience in having been judges before and knowing what the ABS judges look for. Believe me, as I'm painstakingly looking at every detail of my knives while at the same time reading the ABS judging standards, I have many questions rolling around my head as to the motive behind those standards. When it comes down to it the kind folks who head up the ABS are men and women who have dedicated their lives to creating some sort of standard to raise the level of blade smithing in the U.S. (and the world). I don't believe, as I'm sure few of most ABS folks do, that theirs are the only standards or that they are the final say in blade smithing. I have a choice as does anyone else, whether or not we want to adhere to those standards for this test. One thing is for sure, when and if I pass this test I will definitely be a better craftsman for it. I've seen much of Storm Crow's work and I really like his style and his attention to the craft of Neo-tribal blade smithing. He and I probably have much of the same taste in our styles of knives. To me, he is someone who I'd love to buy a knife from whether he is an apprentice, JS or MS.

I don't think any of us would argue that the people who have passed either JS or MS tests are people who deserve to be recognized as craftsman of the highest standards. This is not to say that there are not others out there who deserve the same recognition, clearly there are many. There will probably never be a perfect test to place a blade smith at one level or another but I am glad that the ABS has gone to such lengths to create some sort of standard for this craft.

Storm Crow, keep bashing those blades. Hope to meet you one day.
Stress levels still high. Can't wait till I have nothing left to do but turn my knives in to be judged and let the gavel fall where it may.
Mike
 
Mike - No fear, I'll be bashing blades as long as I can. You do too. :)

I have no problem with having a standard for knifemaking, I just don't want that standard to be arbitrarily judged. I see the point of saying the spine on the integral may be too thick for the blade size, I definitely see the point in saying that pins and/or thong tubes need to be neater, etc. But having too wide of a ricasso (I know I've seen plenty of knives with ricassos as wide as the blade, and I make my knives without 'em altogether) or too much belly (seems like a very useful design element for skinning and certain kinds of woodworking) are isues that seem like personal aesthetics, which I feel quite strongly should not enter into an ABS judge's judgement. Hence my speaking up about it.

I'm really looking forward to seeing what your test knives end up like. I think having a backup is probably a good idea as EScott mentioned.

EScott - Hmmm, my Kill Bill Bowie I recently posted has 'bout as much belly as Mike's but tapers distally. Another knifemaker I know whose focus is deer processing knives makes 'em with even more belly and they have distal taper to them. Still seems like a matter of personal taste to me.

I do have to say that it looks to me like the handle on the big knife might feel overly large, but I'd have to have it in hand to make the comment for certain.

It was a good idea, Mike, for you to send you knives out to get comments. I've been known to do that myself, just not with JS testing in mind. :D
 
That was very well articulated.


mike deibert said:
.....When it comes down to it the kind folks who head up the ABS are men and women who have dedicated their lives to creating some sort of standard to raise the level of blade smithing in the U.S. (and the world). I don't believe, as I'm sure few of most ABS folks do, that theirs are the only standards or that they are the final say in blade smithing. I have a choice as does anyone else, whether or not we want to adhere to those standards for this test. One thing is for sure, when and if I pass this test I will definitely be a better craftsman for it.
I don't think any of us would argue that the people who have passed either JS or MS tests are people who deserve to be recognized as craftsman of the highest standards. This is not to say that there are not others out there who deserve the same recognition, clearly there are many. There will probably never be a perfect test to place a blade smith at one level or another but I am glad that the ABS has gone to such lengths to create some sort of standard for this craft.
Mike
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can anyone confirm whether or not design is a criteria for judging?
I'm curious about that.
 
Mike,

I will second Karl's statement. Very well said indeed.

It is no small thing to subject your work and yourself to the level of critique found in that test room. I thought my heart would stop when they called me in for my critique.

I shoot a Turkey Creek longbow and my wife has a Mohawk classic. We're both amateurs but enjoy it thoroughly.

Storm Crow - no offense was intended.
 
Mike,
Kudos to you for engaging in this kind of accountability. You will be more dedicated and more encouraged because of it. I do however, caution you to not be too hasty in your decision to test even though we are all rooting for you and have great expectations. If the knives come together, so be it. If they don't, ABSOLUTELY DO NOT SUBMIT KNIVES THAT YOU KNOW AREN'T READY! No knife is perfect, and no ABS judge will expect perfection in JS test knives, but you will know your knives better than anybody else. Remember, You have the right to back out of the test even at the last miniute if you are not reasonably confident in your knives. This said, I personally have great confidence that you will do us all proud. I am really looking forward to seeing both you and your blades this June.

Storm Crow;
Having taken both the JS, and MS tests, and having spoken to almost all the judges at some point, I know that style is not a judging criteria, unless of course your style includes construction or finishing flaws. Keep in mind what Scott said about not calling undue attention to your knives unless it is in a very positive way. Keep also in mind, that people do not enjoy judging, and having to fail someone is even less pleasant. At times there may be over 20 applicants as there were last year. It can be a tough task to give the kind of attention each knife deserves with that many in the room. The goal of this test is to determine that an applicant has the basic skills needed to reliably produce a knife of at least a minimum set of standards. It is no wonder that the judges PREFER, (NOT REQUIRE) knives of a simple and basic style, as they are just plain easier to judge in the categories that are required. Jason and Burt are Mikes friends, and their suggestions were aimed at helping Mike pass this test, not to discourage his own style. AS an ABS Mastersmith, let me go on record as saying that we, the ABS encourage all the style we can get from our members. After all how boring would it be if we all had the exact same style? So, by all means, make knives that speak to your soul, but also give the judjes a break. It is a voluntary test.
Keep smashin!

ADAM.
 
EScott - None taken. I was more thinking out loud, taking your data and comparing it with my, admittedly limited, experience. :) My apologies if I gave that impression.

DesRosiers - Rustyboy and I sat on the front row during y'all's presentation at the ABS Expo in San Antonio and thoroughly enjoyed it. He was the hairy gentleman in glasses and I was the handsome fellow with stylish jaw-length sideburns. :D We both really dig y'all's knives.

Good to hear that about the judging. However, I recall a maker (whose name is on the tip of my tongue) who went up for his JS test a number of years back and did not pass, once again to my faulty recollection, because his knives didn't have ricassos. To me, that falls under style being a criteria, particularly as I dislike ricassos and make knives without them. Perhaps there was more to him not passing the first time, and I recall him saying that when they talked about his knives he agreed that they were not ready to pass, but the knock against ricasso-less knives chapped my hide and stuck in my mind. Perhaps in exclusion to other pertinent details. Anyone else recall this?

Seems like more good advice for Mike in re: don't submit knives that you feel aren't ready. I think from the pictures of your work, Mike, that you have the ability to make 'em, but sometimes events don't conspire favorably. I'm curious to see what you come up with and am in the crowd cheering you on. :)
 
DesRosiers said:
Mike,
Kudos to you for engaging in this kind of accountability. You will be more dedicated and more encouraged because of it. I do however, caution you to not be too hasty in your decision to test even though we are all rooting for you and have great expectations. If the knives come together, so be it. If they don't, ABSOLUTELY DO NOT SUBMIT KNIVES THAT YOU KNOW AREN'T READY! No knife is perfect, and no ABS judge will expect perfection in JS test knives, but you will know your knives better than anybody else. Remember, You have the right to back out of the test even at the last miniute if you are not reasonably confident in your knives. This said, I personally have great confidence that you will do us all proud. I am really looking forward to seeing both you and your blades this June.

Thanks for the advice Adam. I've always enjoyed looking at your work (Halley's too!!). Can you please clarify for me and any one reading this why you suggest not turning in knives that are on the edge of passing or not? This has been one of my thoughts as well. On one hand I rarely get a chance to see other people's work much less talk to them in person for advice, counsel, etc. So part of me is thinking "even if my knives are on the edge it may be worth the trip just to get a multi-person critique of my work." The other part of me thinks "If I show shoddy work to the judges maybe this will call into question my craftsmanship." I think I know what you mean but it would do me good to hear your elaborated thoughts on this.

Mike
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Whew. Now that this test is over with I can breath again. I just wanted to update this thread to say "I passed!!!". What a crazy few months it was up till the test. Haven't been on an emotional roller coaster like that in a long time. The night before the test Jason and Burt each came to my room and gave me their inputs on the knives I brought. I actually brought seven to be contenders for the test. Four of the seven were definites but I had a hard choice to make between the other three as to which one to pick for he judging. I didn't sleep at all the night before mostly because my favorite of the three alternates which actually one of my favorites overall, had a light scuff on the blade, probably, from the trip. Mostly I couldn't sleep because I was going back and forth whether I should try to sand the scuff out.

The judging room was rather humorous with men all standing around trying to make small talk but secretly holding back nervous tension. None of us put our blades out until the very last minute. I, for one was very nervous for others to see my work. I don't know why but I was. Also at the very last minute i switched out one of my blades. It was a hard choice but in the end i was glad i made the switch.

The wait outside the judging room was nerve racking. I tried again to make small talk but every time the door opened my heart sank. When all was said and done I passed and never have I felt such a sense of relief.

Before the test I told my wife that pass or fail having prepared for the test had made me a far better bladesmith than I was 6 months before that. Obviously I'm happy that I passed but more than that preparing for the test was something that helped me to step up my game.

The other men I tested with were top notch. I wish I could have spent more time with each of them but the whole show was a blur and brief conversations were all we could muster. Hopefully il get to visit more the next time.

Mike

P.S. I had my blades photographed by Coop. As soon as I get the link I'll post it here.
 
way to go Mike!
 
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