Just a thought about Case

[johnwaynesandw]

JW, as you already know, its an unwritten rule that a deal isn't complete until both parties are happy with the transaction. Most here conduct themselves in that manner.
You might mention this to him, and the fact that you are not happy with your end. It would be different if the defect was mentioned and you bought it knowing that. IMHO it doesn't matter if he supposedly didn't notice the problem, you did and your not happy with it.

If he blows you off after telling him his, I would definitely leave negative feedback for him. Even though he hasn't had any bad feedback before, it doesn't mean his attitude hasn't changed, or that there were other deals that members weren't happy with, but didn't bother leaving negative feedback for.

This is where I am having trouble. Yeah he blew me off, but I am getting the knife fixed. It has been over a month since I bought it and have only had it for a day before it ws shipped off. That part stinks.

One more thing I did not bring up was the fact that the scale on the sheild side did not sit flush with the liner. This was not a big deal but since it was going back to Case for the blade issue. I asked if they could repair that as well. If the knife comes back from Case like I hope it does, I will be happy. The only thing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth is the wait for the reapir (which is not the sellers fault), but then again I think of how he blew me off which is starting to bug me. I wish I would have kept the PM's but my mail box started to get full and I bulk deleted before I thought about keeping those. I have looked back at the for sale thread and he listed it as new unused. I remeber asking him if the stag scale on the other side matched the stag in the picture, he replied yes. In my mind that would have been the time I would have offered up any issues if I was selling the knife if I did not already have it listed in the sale tread.

 

[coyote711]

I've bought a few Case knives that were "flawless", but more that had "issues". Even on the so-called flawless ones, the blade grinds were uneven from one side to the other - not a huge deal, and not my main complaint, but still frustrating in wondering why such a simple thing cannot be done properly by a knife maker! "Joe Blow" grinding a piece of steel on a bench grinder by hand, I could understand not getting the edges consistent; why Case employees, who do this hundreds of times a day by hand can't get this right, baffles me.

Again, the above is not a deal breaker by any means, but it seems indicative of a lack of attention to details. Perhaps I expect too much out of a production knife?

 

[jackknife]

I can only wonder if it's time that case went the route of Victorinox, and invested in some new machinery. I know that on these kinds of threads, Victorinox is very often mentioned as having great fit and finish. I remember reading some years ago that Victorinox took a major step some years ago, and bought all new machines of the very latest CNC high speed manufactoring centers. I hope Case is not going the way of Schrade and Camillus, keeping on trying to produce top quality knives on outdated equiptment. I love Case, and would hate to see them slip down the ladder.

On the other hand, most of the Case knives I've seen made in the last few years have shown great final F&F, so maybe that's not the problem. I know they did have thier 'bad' years while owned by somebody else. Zippo seems like a better owner than the last people.

Maybe it's just inevitable, that when making a large number of anything, some bad examples are going to get through the final inspection. I do know that in the end, you can count on the people at Case to make it right, whatever the problem is. Maybe sonmetimes, the people matter more than anything else.

I do find it very ironic that both Victorinox and Opinel, both family owned business's, and two of the oldest operating knife factories, are two of the most automated up to date factories in existance.

One of these day's I do have to go up to take a tour of the Case factory. It would be interesting to see thier operation first hand.

I know that I myself have often mused why Victorinox has such a high level of great final quality on F&F, considering the massive number of knives shiped per year.

 

[338375]

This is where I am having trouble. Yeah he blew me off, but I am getting the knife fixed. It has been over a month since I bought it and have only had it for a day before it ws shipped off. That part stinks.

One more thing I did not bring up was the fact that the scale on the sheild side did not sit flush with the liner. This was not a big deal but since it was going back to Case for the blade issue. I asked if they could repair that as well. If the knife comes back from Case like I hope it does, I will be happy. The only thing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth is the wait for the reapir (which is not the sellers fault), but then again I think of how he blew me off which is starting to bug me. I wish I would have kept the PM's but my mail box started to get full and I bulk deleted before I thought about keeping those. I have looked back at the for sale thread and he listed it as new unused. I remeber asking him if the stag scale on the other side matched the stag in the picture, he replied yes. In my mind that would have been the time I would have offered up any issues if I was selling the knife if I did not already have it listed in the sale tread.

I could see someone that is not a knife nut like us, overlooking a flaw. But most of us here are fairly picky about our knives, and I have to think that someone who spent the extra $$$ to get a stag knife, knows a little about what a knife should and shouldn't be like.

Even if by chance the seller didn't notice it, when you brought it to his attention, he should have offered up a full refund, or offered to at least pay the shipping for you to return it to Case. Its not a lot of money, but its the principle.

Have you done a search of his prior threads to see if he complained about the quality of this particular knife ? Hopefully when you get it back, it will be exactly what you wanted

 

[johnwaynesandw]

I could see someone that is not a knife nut like us, overlooking a flaw. But most of us here are fairly picky about our knives, and I have to think that someone who spent the extra $$$ to get a stag knife, knows a little about what a knife should and shouldn't be like.

Even if by chance the seller didn't notice it, when you brought it to his attention, he should have offered up a full refund, or offered to at least pay the shipping for you to return it to Case. Its not a lot of money, but its the principle.

Have you done a search of his prior threads to see if he complained about the quality of this particular knife ? Hopefully when you get it back, it will be exactly what you wanted

I looked at his iTrader ratings and they were all positive. He had a rating of 18 transactions, so I felt no need to worry about it. You are right, it is not a lot of money to ship to Case it is about the principle. I don't know, maybe I caught him on a bad day as to the way he replied. I just do not want to be one person to tarnish someones record with out proper cause.

I looked at his post that he started and most were in the for sale section, want to buy, and knives for trade. I did not see anything where he started a thread in the traditional but I just glanced over them real fast.

On a side note, I have a Case stag congress coming in to keep me busy intil the peanut gets back :thumbup:. I just hope it does not need a trip back to Case as well .

But seriously after thinking about it; life is too short to let little things like this upset me.

 

[FLymon]

Jackknife's comments made me take the Alox Cadet off my keyring and give it a close inspection. All four "blades" (if you will) operate flawlessly and there is no noticeable difference in pull, or smoothness from one to the next. They all have the same snap to them, just right. The overall package is as slim and tidy as you could ask for, and for $19 it's a keeper for sure.

Close inspection however, reveals that it is a pretty cheap knife. Gaps between the springs and liners, unfinished stamped steel used as a center liner, and spacers for the main blade and file that share a spring. You can tell that there is no tuning necessary on these, and that the parts just fit when assembled. A product of modern precision machinery no doubt .

I would not be happy if my Case Sway Back Jack had been made this way, but it's not, and it didn't cost $19 either. I don't own one of the bigger models of Victorinox to inspect, but my guess is except for the plastic handles, the "guts" are made the same way as my Cadet, just more of them and stacked in a different order. Am I right about that? Or are the more expensive models made with a different grade of materials?

Maybe the more traditional brands could benefit from precision machinery like Victorinox uses, I don't know. Either way the Victorinox are great, and the Case knives are great, and both would suffer if they were more like the other IMHO.
If that makes any sense.

 

[artmichalek]

I know that I myself have often mused why Victorinox has such a high level of great final quality on F&F, considering the massive number of knives shiped per year.

I don't know if I would call the F&F of great quality. Aluminum liners with the blanking marks still visible and press fit plastic scales that are at best sort of flush. Sure the blades are well ground and centered, and the back springs are pretty consistent, but you could say all the same things about Imperial knives from fifty years ago. Victorinox makes cheap knives very well, but that's a lot a whole lot different from making good knives cheaply.

 

[coyote711]

But seriously after thinking about it; life is too short to let little things like this upset me.

Ain't that the truth! :thumbup: If our biggest problem revolves around the F&F of knives (I know it doesn't), then we've got it pretty darn good!

Still ..... too bad about your issues with this knife, and I hope Case resolves it to your satisfaction! And good luck on your inbound congress!

 

[artmichalek]

Am I right about that? Or are the more expensive models made with a different grade of materials?

No, they're all the same. It's brilliant from a manufacturing standpoint to have a system that can spin off so many models from such a small parts inventory, but I don't know if that system was ever meant to look very good. The company does, after all, have its roots as a military contractor. Their goal has always been to build something suitably reliable and be the lowest bidder. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that if you're just looking for a dependable cutting tool, but it's not a path every company should be following.

 

[coyote711]

Victorinox makes cheap knives very well, but that's a lot a whole lot different from making good knives cheaply.

Not tryin' to start a pissin' match, and it may just be a matter of semantics, but in my opinion Victorinox makes good, inexpensive knives.

 

[neeman]

I can only wonder if it's time that Case went the route of Victorinox, and invested in some new machinery.
....I remember reading some years ago that Victorinox took a major step some years ago, and bought all new machines of the very latest CNC high speed manufactoring centers.
....
I know that I myself have often mused why Victorinox has such a high level of great final quality on F&F, considering the massive number of knives shiped per year.
....

Carl,

Could you give your opinion as a machineist

Victorinox has a relatively small inventory of standarized parts.
The scales clip on the liners
There are no bolsters to fit to pinned scale material.
So they can mass produce their parts

A slipjoint manufacture (Case) has a huge inventory of non-standarized parts
Every pattern has its own specific parts that are not tranferable to another pattern, even the scale materials are different.
So 50 different patterns, with all those specific parts.
and then the labor intesive of fitting (pinning) those parts.

What would it take for Case to move to CNC?
How would the presision of the parts help to speed up the manufacturing proccess?
How would the presision of the parts help the final QC?

Thanks

 

[jackknife]

Carl,

Could you give your opinion as a machineist


What would it take for Case to move to CNC?
How would the presision of the parts help to speed up the manufacturing proccess?
How would the presision of the parts help the final QC?

Thanks

Just from a manufactoring standpoint, you would have a supply of parts that would need very little hand fitting, if any at all. When we got our first two Takasawa machining centers, I was amazed at how fast they turned out parts that were right on the money. Not .005 thousands over or under, not even .002 over or under, but right at what was called for on the final drawing. The parts went together so perfectly, no final adjusting was needed. The only thing to do was take some scotchbrite and debur the corners and edges a little to break the sharp edge.

Maybe this would cut out the problem of a spring being proud, or gaps in the liners and scales. Pivot pins that are turned out to be an exact fit going into the presision holes in the blade tang, may mean no more blade wobble. Pins set by machine instead of hand, for the same reason. How does Victorinox manage to get millions of knives out per year, each fitted perfectly? It's not a matter of less parts, that does not have anything to do with blade fit in the frame. It's precission in the joint. A machine sets the pin with exactly the force needed, no more, no less.

In all the alox sak's I've bought, there's never been a misfitted knife with any problems. Pioneer settler, solo, soldier, secretary, all perfect. No tight blades, no lazy blades. That's not a result from having a simpler to make knife.

Maybe to be competitive Case also may have to cut down the number of models they make. Instead, maybe have a 2 7/8ths frame, a 3 1/4 or 3 5/8th midsize frame, and a 4 1/4 or so frame for the bigger trappers. Have just a small, medium, and large frame, so inventory of springs and liners, and bolsters will be more univeral. Take a very careful look at how many of each model they really sell, vs how many are being made but sitting in inventory for longer than others.

I don't know what Case is doing at the present time, I haven't been there. But anythiing that lets them have a supply of parts that are made faster, with exact specs, needing no work aside from degreasing, will help a great deal. The last Case I bought had stiff blades, and a large amount of black gunk had to be flushed out with oil before it operated smoothly. That's ridiculous. Take a brand new victorinox and open up all the blades and look inside. Highly polished metal surfaces everywhere. Now that's not just CNC at work, it's planning in production of final finish. Every Victorinox opens the same exact way, smooth and easy. It's a combination of the manufacoring of parts plus a bit of extra care in assembly before it goes out the door. No more black gunk and filings in the knife before it's put together.

When Harley-Davidson was on the skids after being bled out by AMF, they knew they had only one last shot left. They had to get it right, or they were gone like Indian. So they sent a team to Japan, to see how they built bikes. They came back and bought brand new Toyoda machining centers. I know because I saw them when I went through there on the open house day. Japanese machining centers operating in the York Pa. plant of H-D. Today, they are fine, still in business because they are making a quality product that does not leak oil anymore, is more reliable than before, and actually works.

Maybe Case aught to send some people over to Switzerland for a tour?

 

[artmichalek]

But anythiing that lets them have a supply of parts that are made faster, with exact specs, needing no work aside from degreasing, will help a great deal.

I don't think CNC equipment will accomplish that. It might get the liners and backsprings more precise, but until they find a way to injection mold stag antlers there's still going to be a lot of hand work. That's just the nature of working with materials that have significant variability. That said, it sort of baffles me that Case ends up with uneven contours so often on delrin scales, when that material can be molded to the exact final shape.

Take a brand new victorinox and open up all the blades and look inside. Highly polished metal surfaces everywhere. Now that's not just CNC at work, it's planning in production of final finish.

The reason is that the modern Swiss Army knife was designed from the standpoint of manufacturing. If you put some engineers into a state of the art machining facility and tell them to make a quarter million pocket knives by the end of the week, that's the design they're going to come up with. Case, on the other hand, is committed to knives that were designed to be made by hand. It's a lot easier to adapt the design to the manufacturing technology than to adapt the manufacturing technology to the design.

 

[FLymon]

...Maybe Case aught to send some people over to Switzerland for a tour?

Victorinox proves that function can be mastered through the use of modern machinery and computers, but can you build an affordable knife that matches the finish of those Case/Bose collaborations by upgrading the equipment, or will you always need people doing that level of work? My guess is that with the right equipment it is possible to exceed those knives in every way measurable, without a human ever touching them. The question is could Case (or anyone else for that matter) sell enough of them to keep them affordable?

Weather Victorinox makes a "good cheap knife" or a "cheap good knife" they are relatively low cost knives that I would think appeal to an audience that is larger by orders of magnitude over that of the Case knives. I just wonder if Case could positively improve on the final product, and still offer the variety that is a major part of their appeal, without increasing the cost substantially.

If they can, they are crazy not to.

 

[Cheeseburger]

I don't think Case is in the business of making a superb knife with great f+f. They make a collectible that happens to be a knife. How many patterns do they have? How many scale choices? Add to that all the "special edition" knifes (John Deere, Johnny Cash, Ruger, etc). How many of these get used vs added to someone's collection? How many of us have multiple knives of the same pattern knife in different scale materials or the entire "set" of a specific scale material? It's not surprising Zippo bought Case. Zippo is in the same boat.

 

[mnblade]

CNC equipment ... might get the liners and backsprings more precise, but until they find a way to injection mold stag antlers there's still going to be a lot of hand work. That's just the nature of working with materials that have significant variability.

Perhaps. But few of the complaints I read about Case knives have to do with the scales. Usually it's blades that rub, backsprings that don't sit flush when the knife is open, poor edge grinds, etc.

Maybe Case could source the production of all metal parts to Victorinox, then assemble the final product by hand in Pennsylvania.

With all that said, I should add that over the past few years, I've purchased four Case knives that were manufactured since 2004 (a peanut, a soddie, a soddie jr., and a trapper) and found all three to be super - money well spent. :thumbup:

 

[artmichalek]

I don't think Case is in the business of making a superb knife with great f+f. They make a collectible that happens to be a knife.

That's not really a fair generalization. I think about Case's lineup into three categories; working knives (the G10 and delrin/cv knives really do represent a solid performance value), specialty runs (like the Bose collaborations and exotic metal series which are close to custom quality), and trinket knives. Unfortunately that third group gets most of the attention, and while I find most of them distasteful I can't fault the business strategy. We can all admit that traditional pocket knives have somewhat limited appeal to modern customers. Case was smart enough to realize that if you can't find more customers, you have to find customers who will make a lot of repeat purchases. Those customers are keeping that factory open and allowing them to make some occasionally phenomenal products.

 

[ms3902]

That's not really a fair generalization. I think about Case's lineup into three categories; working knives (the G10 and delrin/cv knives really do represent a solid performance value), specialty runs (like the Bose collaborations and exotic metal series which are close to custom quality), and trinket knives. Unfortunately that third group gets most of the attention, and while I find most of them distasteful I can't fault the business strategy. We can all admit that traditional pocket knives have somewhat limited appeal to modern customers. Case was smart enough to realize that if you can't find more customers, you have to find customers who will make a lot of repeat purchases. Those customers are keeping that factory open and allowing them to make some occasionally phenomenal products.

I agree with you on this one. When I flip through a catalog of case knives I am often over taken by all of the trinket knives that were made for the shear collectibility of them. And while there are still good solid value knives scattered among them the vast majority of these knives are either going to be gifted or collected by someone. Not everybody is concerned about the fit and finish of a knife. They see it as a knife and nothing more. That being said I am still a case fan. Not because the make the best knife but because they are the ones that originally got me started collecting knives. And when you do get one that has good f&f you really appreciate it. Like this one the springs are flush, open and closed, the grinds are even and the scales match up pretty good.

 

[matt]

I have bought several case knives this year and have been very happy with all of them,I just bought two stag trappers that are beautiful.

 

[338375]

I agree with what JK wrote. The idea that things aren't always consistent, is hard to understand with todays technology. The no reason that the knives should go out the door with gunk in the joints either...
Little things make a huge difference in the quality of the finished product.

I have to wonder what the actual number of knives is that are returned for qc issues ? In the grand scheme of things, it may be such a small number, that it is not worth the expense of upgrading to newer machinery. Besides, usually when that happens, people lose jobs.
I know its a hard concept to grasp, but some people don't look at knives as closely as most of us do. They buy it to use, and put it in their pocket.

I like the idea that the knives are still handled and made by people, not machines, and can tolerate a little bit of imperfection knowing this. YMMV