Just a thought about Case

crossada said:
so if the Case/Bose collaborations are top of the line where do the damascus bladed versions fall in at? I have been looking at a couple of patterns online but if i'm going to spend that much i want it perfect. Heck even if i were buying a regular model i would want it perfect too.
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I have heard (but do not have personal experience) that the C/B knives are about the best they make. I haven't read yet about a complaint about one of those models. They sure do look nice!

As a suggestion, buy your knife from a well trusted, honest vendor that will tell you exactly what the F/F is on the knife you will be getting. In fairness to them I have told them what I am after and what my expectations are for the knife. I have bought knives before from online vendors that told me I might "want to wait for the next batch" before I purchase a certain model. Sure saves a lot of heartburn, and is fair to both parties.

In the last 15-18 knives, I have only sent one back.

Robert
 
Shing (not Shecky) wrote:

"Its pretty clear Case is using very worn dies to stamp out their blades and hardware. Looking at the amount of distortion and roughness of the edges, there can be no other conclusion."

Not sure how someone from Britain can know so much about Case production, but in the last 5 regular production Case I've bought there has been no distortion or roughness of edges indicating worn dies. My newest regular production is a 5" toothpick and all metal parts are crisp.

And Shing (not Shecky) also wrote:

Most of the time served cutlers who would have fixed most of these problems have long retired or not allowed enough time to do their jobs properly.

Again, not sure how you know about the age and experience of Case's workforce, but per Tony Bose they are a good crew. They did lay off about 1/4 of their workforce, but my Case/Bose Norfolk whitler has fit/finish to equal the previous years. I sent in a knife for scale repair in November and it came back perfect.
 
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brownshoe said:
Shecky wrote:

"Its pretty clear Case is using very worn dies to stamp out their blades and hardware. Looking at the amount of distortion and roughness of the edges, there can be no other conclusion."

Not sure how someone from Britain can know so much about Case production, but in the last 5 regular production Case I've bought there has been no distortion or roughness of edges indicating worn dies. My newest regular production is a 5" toothpick and all metal parts are crisp.

And Shecky also wrote:

Most of the time served cutlers who would have fixed most of these problems have long retired or not allowed enough time to do their jobs properly.

Again, not sure how you know about the age and experience of Case's workforce, but per Tony Bose they are a good crew. They did lay off about 1/4 of their workforce, but my Case/Bose Norfolk whitler has fit/finish to equal the previous years. I sent in a knife for scale repair in November and it came back perfect.
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Actually, Shecky didn't write that. But I've actually wondered about worn dies once. I had an experience with a couple Case lockbacks a couple years ago, where the blade would disengage with about the same force on the spine as a slipjoint. Obviously a dud, it went back. The replacement behaved the exact same way. Perhaps the dies were no longer punching clean corners on the tang and/or lockbar? Either way, it went back, too and I postponed the purchase. A year later, I finally bought the knife, presumably a different run, with the correct lockup it should have had in the beginning, and have been satisfied with it.

But it should be asked, however, how many folks would have as much patience. Maybe I'm a chump for giving Case so much latitude. And if Case is relying on it's customers to be so forgiving, they are really doomed. It has to be repeated, if anyone got a Rough Rider of Marbles that exhibited such a flaw, it would be held up as an example of how crappy Chinese knives are. I wonder if we're really doing Case any favors by accepting the little (and not so little) flaws and patronizing them regardless.
 
Maybe it's a die issue but the grinding and polishing I'd think would undo even sharp new dies. I do think that Case tumbles or overgrinds many of the mirror polished blades so that edges or corners are slightly rounded. On my new G10 humpback though the edges will cut. Of course it has blades never before seen so very new dies. I wonder if the SS and CVs are that sharp (G10 is satin).
 
I have just received a new Case Chestnut Bone Swayback CV here in Germany and the F&F really is as perfect as it can get.
Rounded edges from too much polishing as well. But, after all, it's not a custom knife. :D

I like it a lot. :thumbup:

Best,
Peter
 
neeman said:
Excuse me, but that is a 6% to 5% failure rate.
Is that acceptable?
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Keep in mind that the subset of the knife buying population you're talking to here has a much lower tolerance for failure than the general public. Case is probably seeing well under .5% returns overall.

MarkPinTx said:
Maybe it's a die issue but the grinding and polishing I'd think would undo even sharp new dies.
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The issue is that when the dies start to wear, the parts that get punched through start to get bigger and bigger. I have a cv trapper with significant distortion around the edge of the tang that keeps the spring from sitting down all the way when the blade is open. It doesn't bother me much, but it is something that could be done better.
 
brownshoe said:
Shing (not Shecky) wrote:

"Its pretty clear Case is using very worn dies to stamp out their blades and hardware. Looking at the amount of distortion and roughness of the edges, there can be no other conclusion."

Not sure how someone from Britain can know so much about Case production, but in the last 5 regular production Case I've bought there has been no distortion or roughness of edges indicating worn dies. My newest regular production is a 5" toothpick and all metal parts are crisp.

And Shing (not Shecky) also wrote:

Most of the time served cutlers who would have fixed most of these problems have long retired or not allowed enough time to do their jobs properly.

Again, not sure how you know about the age and experience of Case's workforce, but per Tony Bose they are a good crew. They did lay off about 1/4 of their workforce, but my Case/Bose Norfolk whitler has fit/finish to equal the previous years. I sent in a knife for scale repair in November and it came back perfect.
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I don't need to know how Case specifically makes their knives because most production makers use the same methods. Its forunate you got good knives but with so many people getting duds, it appears Case uses dies for too long so although new dies will make parts within tolerance, as the dies wear excessively, the parts they make will envitably go out of tolerance. Case is obviously saving money be keeping worn dies in use but the result is poor parts. The obvious answer is to change dies before they wear excessively but dies are expensive.

If there are experienced cutlers working at Case, they obviously don't work on the majority of their production. Looking at the older knives from old Sheffield firms like Rodgers and Wostenholm and compared to Case knives I've seen, the difference is marked.
 
shecky said:
Maybe I'm a chump for giving Case so much latitude. And if Case is relying on it's customers to be so forgiving, they are really doomed. It has to be repeated, if anyone got a Rough Rider of Marbles that exhibited such a flaw, it would be held up as an example of how crappy Chinese knives are. I wonder if we're really doing Case any favors by accepting the little (and not so little) flaws and patronizing them regardless.
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WOW.... I never thought of it that way. You make an excellent point. In my earlier post comparing my Chinese Remingtons to the current CASE offerings, my brain stopped before I got to your comment. I guess I just didn't feel like bagging on CASE.

But you are right. With some of the F/F on CASE knives I have seen at the knife store I frequent as well as the gun shows I go to, just about anyone here would sneer at the overall quality and indeed compare them to Rough Riders. Some are really great, some leave you scratching your head as to why it left the factory.

When you look at the tone of this thread (quite civil, thankfully, as I think we are all just concerned about CASE)
it reads almost EXACTLY as a Rough Rider thread.

The high points being:

- hey, I got mine and it is perfect!! In fact, every one I have bought is perfect
- mine had XXX as a problem, and XXX as well, what a piece of junk I'll never buy them again
- I use my knives, so this being a work knife I don't care that much about F/F
- you can always send it back and the factory/vendor will make it right

Amazingly, at the last gun show the largest knife dealer has been so well trained to accept poor quality control that he told me that I could buy a CASE with confidence knowing that if the F/F wasn't right, I could send it in to CASE and they would fix it.

He has been telling himself that so long, it actually sounded good to him. I asked him, "why would I buy a brand new, unused, factory fresh knife I knew I would have to send it to get it to work as promised in the first place?"

He got ticked off. He told me I should appreciate that CASE stood behind their product. I told him that I thought CASE should send out a quality product to begin with, one that needed no follow up on quality control issues from me.

I told him, look... I am in construction remodeling/repair. If I build a bathroom cabinet, it takes a lot of work and I get a fair price for it. To me, his view is exactly like me saying to a client, "go ahead and pay for the cabinet now with its dragging drawers, the doors out of adjustment, and the scratches in the finish because you know I will come back and fix that stuff if you decide you can't live with it".

He got it that time. He was even more pissed off, and simply walked away.


shecky said:
I wonder if we're really doing Case any favors by accepting the little (and not so little) flaws and patronizing them regardless.
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I have my opinion on that already set. If we keep buying the bean counters will continue to think everything is just fine. Then one day, the bubble will burst if they keep going on in this direction. As pointed out, there is precedence for this set by other knife making companies. You can only make so many rock star knives, Independence day knives, NASCAR knives etc., that are just collectibles, not users. As long as those knives are polished well, no one cares about the backsprings in use, dragging blades, off center blades, etc. As long as they are pretty, they are acceptable.

CASE makes a lot of fine knives now, and maybe even some of the prettiest they have ever made. Since as attested here, they can still make "perfect" knives, it will be interesting to see where they take their products.

Guess time will tell.

Robert
 
neeman said:
Excuse me, but that is a 6% to 5% failure rate.
Is that acceptable?
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artmichalek said:
Keep in mind that the subset of the knife buying population you're talking to here has a much lower tolerance for failure than the general public. Case is probably seeing well under .5% returns overall.
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The problem is the general public compare (what we the subset would call failures) to cheaper non-failure knives

So the 6% to 5% failure rate actually reflects a fair Quality Assurance of what we consider should not left the factory gates

Where does the 0.5% come from?
 
neeman said:
The problem is the general public compare (what we the subset would call failures) to cheaper non-failure knives

So the 6% to 5% failure rate actually reflects a fair Quality Assurance of what we consider should not left the factory gates

Where does the 0.5% come from?
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I'm just not sure most knife buyers think that hard. If they buy knives anything like they buy cars, they care more about what color they are than how well they're put together. That's where my 0.5% came from. It would be optimistic to think that one out of every ten knife buyers really cares if the blades are centered or would notice if they aren't. As long as that's the case it's going to be keep being cheaper to deal with the occasional squeaky wheel customer than to bring quality control up across the board.
 
I agree about the general public.

My point is that we on this forum represent an honest level of QA
What quality is acceptable at what price point
And which knives should have failed a QA
 
We're all giving our opinions about the problems with Case knives and how to fix them - some darn good ideas & thoughts have been posted here!

Here's my $.02 (hear me out before ya flame me): CHINA. Everyone has to compete with China. Look at the textile/clothing industry in the USA - practically non-existent these days. I don't know about you, but I'd gladly pay $.50 more for a pair of undershorts or a few bucks more for a shirt or pair of pants IF they were made in the USA. And I'd gladly pay 5 bucks, or 10%, or whatever, more for any Case knife if it meant they were able to upgrade their equipment, or QC, or whatever it takes to improve their quality and keep them in business right here in the USA.

No intent to flame China, or degrade/belittle other countries by waving the "Made in the USA" banner - it's just that I'm an American and that's where my loyalties lie. Good quality stuff comes out of ALL countries. I just think that manufacturers have to keep their costs, and final selling price, down in order to compete in the global economy, and that quality suffers as a result. I think that's Cases' problem in a nutshell - it's certainly not that they don't know how to make higher quality knives - they're just following what has become the corporate mantra: Do more, with less people, in less time. Quality suffers!
 
What Coyote said. Meanwhile, I don't know anything about recent mfg CASE knives. I have some from the 60's and from 1970 which are superb, and I have a Case/Bose which is equally superb. Come to think about it, I guess I do have a recent one. It is a Damascus raindrop stag seahorse whittler. It is interesting, but I would just soon sell it and buy something that is a little more in line with my constantly evolving tastes. I think the fit and finish of it are fine, but it is just too...um... modern for me, I guess. Geezer speakin'.
 
Shing says: "I don't need to know how Case specifically makes their knives because most production makers use the same methods."

So you don't know anything about Case production. What you say are assumptions. If you wish to learn, there are videos on the internet that show Case production processes. Which knife production company uses old dies that you are using for a comparison to Case? Or is it some other type of product that you assume is made the same as Case knives?

Shing also says: "If there are experienced cutlers working at Case, they obviously don't work on the majority of their production. Looking at the older knives from old Sheffield firms like Rodgers and Wostenholm and compared to Case knives I've seen, the difference is marked. "

Don't know why someone who knows nothing about Case production wants to disrespect the Case worker. Your comparison of today's cutlers to the past is not valid. Can you compare current Case to current "sheffield" production? The few production knives out of Great Britain today are somewhat crude and not equal to Case. Even those made by the "traditionalists" Trevor Ablett cannot equal Case's fit and finish.

Ever since I entered the knife collecting, I've heard people disrespect Case. Some people even disrepsect the knife shows where there are a lot of Case collectors. This prejudice kept me from buying Case for many years. I was happy with swiss army knives, spydrecos and benchmades. Then one day, I tried Case, and sure not all of them are perfect, but I am satisfied. It just is annoying to have people speculate and disrespect a firm w/o any actual proof behind their generalizations.
 
From my experience the quality of recent Case knives is very good. One point to consider is that most of us knifenuts buy CV bladed knives, and the factory knows this too. They might put a little more effort into F&F on the CVs, or they might put more experienced workers on them for the same reason. Saying this, even my SS bladed Cases have been good lately, as well.

With the exception of a few obvious flaws (such as blade ripple or poorly fitting linerlocks) my Chinese made knives have been very nearly a match for the Case in F&F. This includes Rough Rider, Kissing Crane and Marbles. Unfortunately (for American workers) they sell for about 1/5 of what a Case does.

The problem with saying, "I'd gladly pay 10% more for better quality" is that it often requires doubling the expenditure to see any measureable difference in the final product. When they're already very good, it takes a lot to make them better.

There are many reasons which make up the decision whether or not to buy a knife, but as far as American-made quality goes, Case is still just about the best bang for the buck (with the possible exception of Queen).
 
black mamba said:
The problem with saying, "I'd gladly pay 10% more for better quality" is that it often requires doubling the expenditure to see any measureable difference in the final product. When they're already very good, it takes a lot to make them better.

There are many reasons which make up the decision whether or not to buy a knife, but as far as American-made quality goes, Case is still just about the best bang for the buck (with the possible exception of Queen).
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10-4 on the "quality for the price", and also the timeframe and expense for gaining incremental quality. Hell, I'll even re-phrase my prior statement - I'd gladly pay 10% more if it would just help to keep them in business right here in the USA - forget the "better quality" part. ;)
 
when i went to research getting my first slipjoint i was going to get a classic Case stockman but in many threads i kept seeing references to poor QC. I went with GEC instead. My knives are users but i would never settle for a sloppy product just because it was going to see wear and tear. I guess in my regards the reputation of Case's poor QC cost them a potential customer in many ways.
 
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