Just saw this.....Bark River is no more?

[somber]

This test only concludes the composition of THAT particular knife, right?

You can’t reasonably conclude that this one test confirms the integrity of the rest.

 

[madcap_magician]

I don't understand all the people asking if their knife is the advertised steel. A pair of self-admitted liars and frauds gave you a list of knives they admit are bad. I feel like we can confidently assume those knives aren't made of the advertised steel. But because they are again, self-admitted liars and frauds, no one can trust that the list they provided are the only models that aren't made of the advertised steel.

Now, another thing going on here is BRK's long history of sketchy work. Now, before I found out about all the fraud, I just kind of thought it was the tradeoff. They have hundreds of models and tens of thousands of knives in many different steels and in handle materials that are generally hard to find elsewhere and at a price that was typically not outrageous. The tradeoff was that the fit and finish on them was never great - grinds are uneven, some of the handle materials aren't perfectly fitted, that kind of thing. I always liked looking at the cool handle materials more than I liked buying the knives. I've only ever purchased one outright, won another in a charity raffle and two more in a normal raffle.

But now I'm kind of wondering if I should have avoided them even more clearly. It's hard for me because there are a lot of people associated with Bark River whom I like and respect - Jason Thoune and the DLT Trading people, Derrick Bohn from KSF and the new owner is also a decent fellow. Some of the associated makers who have done midtech runs with BRK like Dan Tope and Matt Martin and Alex Harrison. But it seems like everyone who had a negative experience with BRK kind of grumbled silently about it no matter how badly they got burned.

I won't repeat anyone else's experience, I'm not going to gossip third-hand, but here's my BRK experience:

1. Getting Mike to do anything personally is impossible. Actually, getting anything handled by Bark River was impossible, weirdly unless you talked to a female employee. Any time I needed anything at BRK specifically, Jackie Troutman was the only person who could actually make something happen. I won a raffle 'mystery knife' in a charity raffle to which I contributed. Mike promised to donate a knife for the charity raffle, but never sent it to the raffle organizer (not abnormal in those groups, a lot of the prizes get shipped directly from the donor to the recipient), but he never sent a picture or even stated what the knife was. Well, I got drawn for it, and I messaged him a couple times after a month went by, and he kept saying he'd get to it. After two or three months, I messaged Jackie instead, and the next day I had a UPS tracking number, and a week later, I had a Bark River Bravo 1 in 3V and firedog micarta. It was typical Bark River, fit and finish was OK but not great, and as a charity raffle win I couldn't really complain, but I didn't keep it.

2. In December 2023, Nick Troutman ran a raffle for six Bark River Gunny folders. These were highly anticipated and there was a preorder for them at DLT. However, they kept changing the designs and adding or changing features. I participated in this raffle, although I usually don't, because it happened right before DLT's 12 Days of Christmas and right after Black Friday sales started, so I figured correctly that the participation would be low and I'd have a high chance to win. I was right, I won two of the six for a net cash investment half of what retail price was. I had BRK die-hards wanting to buy them from me immediately.

Turns out the knives weren't actually completely finished, and I didn't see them until March of 2024. When I received them (All six were bolster locks), the lock on one was minimally functionally and on the other was not functional... at all. Like... at all. It had the same blade security as an SAK classic, and you could close it readily. Forget spine whack tests, you could close it with that safety method you use on slipjoints where you pinch the handle in one hand and use the web between your thumb and forefinger on each hand to exert pressure against the backspring until the knife closes without ever having your fingers in the blade path. Zero lock fitting. The clip was carbon fiber and screwed on as an afterthought and still had visible shreds of carbon fiber hanging off the cutout edges.

I posted about it and while I wouldn't say I was jumped on per se, after I posted that I was having problems with it, I immediately (while I was in the process of uploading the video to Facebook to show what I was talking about) had people posting replies to my post saying I needed to prove it with video or shut up. Well, the videos finished uploading, and then the chorus changed to "just send it in and they'll take care of you!"

I sold the semi-functional one to a die-hard collector who was happy to have it for parts even with the disclosure about how poor the function was, and I sent the other back in to BRK to be fixed. That was also in March 2024. Since then, Nick and Jackie have left BRK, and during the past two years, I have received the following explanations:

"Nick is still going in on weekends to fix these."
"It's on his desk, I'll remind him."
"I'm really sorry, but they lost a bunch of CAD files and have to re-do them."
"They have to order new materials to re-machine some parts for you."

And then eventually after they left, they just stopped replying entirely.

And during this whole debacle, Mike hops into the Bark River Boys group to announce that the Bark River Gunny Folder project isn't a Bark River knife, it was a side project by Nick Troutman alone, and anyone who has a problem with them needs to take it up with Nick.

Here's the top-quality work on my Gunny folder, which I know I will never see again. I don't even care about the knife, I still have a buyer who wants it for parts.

 

[David Mary]

Have any other knifemakers experienced this cross contamination problem with Magnacut?

Has there been another documented case?

I’ve seen it as well.

I find it unlikely for MagnaCut blades to actually rust from belt or buffing cross-contamination, since any transferred particles would be minuscule and confined to the surface. That said, those particles aren’t MagnaCut—they can still act as tiny initiation points for localized oxidation. In practice, I think the worst you’d expect (and the worst I’ve ever seen) is very shallow surface rust at those sites, typically on the order of microns rather than thousandths, and more often just light discoloration or a faint patina.

Even in those cases, the effect is largely cosmetic. Unless the contamination is severe and left exposed to moisture for extended periods, it shouldn’t meaningfully impact edge performance or cutting behavior.

I actually tried as a test to maximize the likelihood of cross contamination on my personal EDC knife (aka R&D knife) so I could observe any effects. Under the right light it now has a very light patina from cutting steak.

 

[nsm]

This test only concludes the composition of THAT particular knife, right?

You can’t reasonably conclude that this one test confirms the integrity of the rest.

Correct

 

[toker]

So they were basically stealing from suppliers and trying to sell as many completed knives as possible before the whole house of cards came tumbling down.

Best of luck to anyone who supports the son's new knife company.

 

[somber]

Doubtful Jim will be successful in his venture.

The MI State Police are interviewing women who were harassed / abused and customers who were defrauded.

If you were a customer defrauded or who still had knives awaiting warranty repair that are now without their property should call the Gladstone MSP Office.

 

[mtice1]

They undoubtedly have a decent number of customer’s knives in their shop for warranty repair or mods (ramp removal). How and when will customers get their property back is a big question not yet answered? Calls to Bark River go unanswered. Looks like Gladstone, MI Police will have an increase in cases.

 

[somber]

They won’t even have the necessary funds to pay for return shipping on those knives.

The staff who knows everything about them doesn’t work there any more.

They don’t have the machines to complete the repairs.

They don’t have the materials or belts.

I simply can’t see what recourse the customers have than criminal complaints and civil litigation.

Maybe contact the dealers and see if they can raid the place for their customers??

 

[SwissHeritageCo]

One thing that keeps being ignored in this discussion of contamination is that grinding particles of the same steel can also promote corrosion, even a stainless steel. They are high surface area particles and act as initiation sites for corrosion. Acid passivation is performed on stainless steel for exactly this purpose, removing free iron particles.

The glasses in your avatar really drives the emphasis of your posts home.

 

[Taz]

I've experienced cross contamination. My Magnacut gyuto did it. 64 HRC, I used scotchbrite belts to finish it and had used the same belts on a variety of other steels, including carbons. After use and drying, I noticed some weird patina/rust splotches. Used a different scotchbrite belt, thoroughly cleaned/scrubbed the blade after with soapy scotchbrite pad and then hot water, dawn and regular dish sponge. Issue never came back. So now I thoroughly scrub all of my knives a few times after the finishing belt steps, regardless of what belt or method I use.

 

[mitchnola]

I don't like the idea that some of you folks are trying to make everyone involved with Bark River out to be scam artists.

It's obvious that many of you have never worked in manufacturing. You're standing at your bench for many hours a day. You have a limited set of responsibilities and a clearly defined range of digression. If something is wrong, you flag it and a supervisor makes a decision. If he says 'ship it', you ship it. It may not feel good, but it's your responsibility to do your job within the guidelines set for you. If something goes wrong and it slips by unnoticed, you are likely to get clobbered. Your choice is to work, or take your chances elsewhere. Over very large swaths of the country there aren't a lot of jobs for manual labor types.

As for the dealers, well, who knows. These guys have to sell knives, and we'll undoubtedly see a range of responses to this fiasco. They will have to strike some kind of balance between keeping their customers happy and preserving their own interests. We're consumers, we can choose who we support or don't.

Agreed. I'm all for ethics and good morality, but you cant eat ethics or shelter under morals. Employees generally arent to blame. That wouldn't work for any other field or organization or company, so it doesnt really work here just because its a knife maker.

I read that the "receivables" were hit and the accounts frozen so they couldn't get any money out. 3 lawsuits hit in early March for breach of contract and non payment against BRK and I guess one of those got bank accounts frozen?

Employees were ticked and broke the news of the China blanks from what I read when they found out they weren't getting paid last Friday. Supposedly the employees were trying to figure out how to let people know of the China blanks without screwing themselves over, so when they heard they weren't getting paid and BRK was closing, they had nothing left to lose.

There is supposedly a video of when Mike told the employees they were closing and they had no money to pay them according to an employee.

As far as the employees go assuming they knew what was going on, I wouldn’t hold them responsible at all for the scam but I also don’t feel sorry for them at all regardless of how hard it is to find work in their area.

If they knew what was going on and couldn’t see the writing on the wall and prepare accordingly by finding a new job then they have only themselves to blame for their current situation.

 

[knarfeng]

Have any other knifemakers experienced this cross contamination problem with Magnacut?

Has there been another documented case?

Cross contamination can happen with any stainless steel. Including Magnacut.

Magnacut is stainless for the same reason that other stainless steels are stainless. There is a tightly adhering oxide layer which acts as a barrier to oxygen and water. Corrosion is a reaction between iron, oxygen, and water. All three reactants are required for the reaction to occur. A break in the oxide layer can act as an access point for those reactants, and corrosion can result.

 

[StuntDouble]

Cross contamination can happen with any stainless steel. Including Magnacut.

Magnacut is stainless for the same reason that other stainless steels are stainless. There is a tightly adhering oxide layer which acts as a barrier to oxygen and water. Corrosion is a reaction between iron, oxygen, and water. All three reactants are required for the reaction to occur. A break in the oxide layer can act as an access point for those reactants, and corrosion can result.

It’s happened with H1 knives from Spyderco. I don’t think they pitted or anything, but some people definitely had some rust spots pop up because of cross contamination.

 

[Fox940]

No, it should be available for those who need the info. But what more is there to say?

Plenty, has it been made known that the Michigan State Police are investigating Mike Stewart/Stuart Knives LLC?

 

[Chefget]

Cross contamination can happen with any stainless steel. Including Magnacut.

Magnacut is stainless for the same reason that other stainless steels are stainless. There is a tightly adhering oxide layer which acts as a barrier to oxygen and water. Corrosion is a reaction between iron, oxygen, and water. All three reactants are required for the reaction to occur. A break in the oxide layer can act as an access point for those reactants, and corrosion can result.

Thanks for your answer.

Guess what I meant to ask is this a known problem from various manufacturers of stainless steel cutlery? Though the contamination can happen, is this something that has been experienced by both makers and users such the when BR knives oxidized it wasn't out of the norm?

 

[Danke42]

Thanks for your answer.

Guess what I meant to ask is this a known problem from various manufacturers of stainless steel cutlery? Though the contamination can happen, is this something that has been experienced by both makers and users such the when BR knives oxidized it wasn't out of the norm?

It's not unique to BRK. What's unique is how all the other knife companies deal with it. They don't flat out blame the person who bought the knife.

 

[knarfeng]

Thanks for your answer.

Guess what I meant to ask is this a known problem from various manufacturers of stainless steel cutlery? Though the contamination can happen, is this something that has been experienced by both makers and users such the when BR knives oxidized it wasn't out of the norm?

I would not consider it "normal" because knife makers are expected to take steps to prevent it. But it pops up from time to time if somebody has an oops.

 

[RHINOKNIVES]

I didn't realize Epstein collected BRK. Makes sense though.

Don’t know about Epstein but Hillary surely does!

 

[Fox940]

Doesn't change how we conduct ourselves here. Those are the house rules.

I apologize for a previous comment. I honestly didn't know that there was a "Whine and Cheese" section on this forum where the "dirty" stuff can be disclosed. Also on FB this morning a guy that has apparently known Mike Stewart since the 1980's through knife business stuff stated that Mike Stewart isn't his real name. It is Daniel Nigro!

 

[mitchnola]

This guy saying good bye to his BRKs.

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