Just Want Your opinions

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ONeill said:
He needs to be upfront and honest , then it is up to the buyer to decide .

But personally , I do not like them selling in the knifemakers FS forum , as I do not consider them a knifemaker . I recently was going to comment on how nice the grind was done on a knife for sale , only to find later that it was a blade bought and ground from TKS for $17.00 , $ 8.00 for handle material and a $140.00 sale price .
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I do not believe the initial cost has anything to really do with it. for instance I've only bought wooden handle material once maybe twice. the rest is found in my family's woods. I believe Mr Culberson hit the mark on what we should do about this when he said
I think the person using kits knives should be allowed to sell on BF, so long as the details of the knife are disclosed........
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It is after all a blade they are selling. they just need to be honest about it's origins.

My $.02 worth anyway
Jason
 
How much detail is enough? Opinions?

FORGED:
[] BY SELLER
[] BY SELLER COLLABORATION
[] BOUGHT

HAND FORGED:
[] BY SELLER
[] BY SELLER COLLABORATION
[] BOUGHT

ETC...

I am not selling knives, and haven't bought one here, yet. ;)

But this is something one must think about. Before qualifying a knife, one must qualify the qualification process.
 
Last time I looked at this there were just a couple responses and I thought the fella might step in and post his side of it. Now.... not so much ;)

Like most others, so long as the guy is upfront about it, I see no problem with it. Joe made a good point about many Scandinavian and Finish knife makers. It isn't always a bad thing, or even a compromise.

Hell, I've sold blade blanks made from ATS-34, S30V, O1, 52100, even damascus that were all 100% the same quality as anything I've ever sold as a finished knife (so far as steel and heat-treat)...

But I would be extremely disappointed IF one were sold without full disclosure (I did NOT mark the blades in any way). I hadn't worried about it too much because AFAIK the buyers just wanted a custom blade without the full price for their own personal use.

Edited to add- I forgot to say.... That if the knife is made from a $10 blank of stamped out bumper steel and being sold as a full blown, QUALITY custom... then I have a HUGE PROBLEM with it!!!
 
This seller is a really a dealer,as all he does here is sell knives and blades. I felt that he was skirting the rules in the Makers section by selling there and not in the Dealers For Sale. A dealer can sell whatever he wants, a person in the Makers area is saying he made the knife, IMHO. Dealers also have to pay for that privilege.
 
EDIT - Question answered. Thank you.

Some "blanks" are hand made and cost hundreds of dollars. If someone gets one of those and puts a fantastic, beautiful and one-of-a-kind handle on it and makes a great sheath or display on top of that, will they not be able to sell in the knifemakers area? That seems a little extreme to me.

The knifemakers area has always been available to all levels of craftsmen and all pricepoints. I like that.
 
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Some of the pre-made blades are quite good. Because a blade is hand made does not make it better.
I know most of you wince at the idea that these knives are not fully hand made, but how many of you started out that way? There is room for people who assemble knives, but I'm not sure exactly where! Many factory knives are made with imported blades, or are made by other factories, and this is not disclosed.
There is a fine line here. "Custom" is often misused. Perhaps "customized" is the proper term. I do a lot of customization on factory knives, and I make sole authorship handmade knives. Perhaps we should call ours "100% hand made" knives, and leave the term "custom" to the customizers. I do agree that if the blade is pre-made it should be disclosed.
 
In my mind it's not the blade source, but the honesty about that source. In the knifemaker's sale area if you didn't make the blade you should be up front about that. If it's from another craftsman that should be said, along with the information about the materials. For purchased commercial blades I don't think we need to say what shop we bought them from, but still need to say it's a commercial blade and any information like steel type and such.

I keep toying with the idea of making a knife or two from Alabama Damascus blades. If I do, and if I sell them, I'll be posting that the blades are theirs even if I have done some grinding and mods to the blade before putting a handle on it. Part of the reason for posting that is because I am under the impression that they have pretty decent blades compared to most of the mass produced damascus stuff out of india and pakistan. The other reason is because it's only fair to the buyer and other sellers to be honest about my materials. If I bought a piece of damascus stock from a craftsman and used that to make my blade I'd feel wrong about not crediting them with the steel.
 
Not being a maker, just a consumer.

I don't have any issue with it as long as disclosure is made. What the origin of the blade is exactly and that they didn't make it themselves.

One guy, and I'm thinking it may be the one on your mind really does great work on his handles/scales. Some of his postings link to the $15 blank he used, some don't. It took me a few good looks to figure out what was going on to be honest.

I really like the quality of his handle/scale work and I think that definitely gets some cred in my eyes for 'custom'. I do think there should be a clear disclosure on where the blade came from though.

One particular example was really nice...I was almost close to buying it. Then I found out that the blade was very avg material and is a $15 blank....on a $150 'knife' roughly. I think it should be more obvious to the non-expert eye where the blade comes from.
 
If this particular individual did not change his practices after you told him Stacy, why not simply post a link here?
 
I've weighed in on this topic before, and my opinion hasn't changed.

There is a spectrum of activity that falls within the realm of knifemaking. What's more, there's no standardized definition of where one has to start in that spectrum in order to be worthy of the name "Custom", "Hand Made" or even more broadly "Knifemaker". Without such a standardized definition it's a bit disengenuous to suggest someone is besmirching the craft by starting at a different point than you do.

On the other hand, there are those of us who are more cautious about our use of language than others. I have eschewed the label "knifemaker", though I've made a few knives. Others might take on that title without having made even a single knife, based on the premise that they are moving toward the goal of making knives. Does my avoidance of the term help or hinder the profession? Does someone else's hopeful use of the term make it any less honorable for those who do it properly?

Truth be known, I don't ever aspire to be a knifemaker. I aspire to create knives that nobody else would think to create. It is more an artistic expression for me than a utilitarian manufactory. So if someone else chooses to call themself a knifemaker because they put handles on factory made blades, it has absolutely no bearing on what I do or how I view myself. I can't really understand how it has any bearing on what anyone else does or how they view themselves either.

Be confident of who you are and nobody can undermine your credibility. Be confident in what you do and nobody can make it less meaningful to you.

- Greg
 
OK, I seem to be a little late getting into this discussion but going to throw my two cents in on this subject!

Custom knives are made by one of two processes! Meaning either the blade has been made by reduction process or by forging, or a combination of both processes. Either way you are the maker of the blade. All hardware has been made by you and or purchased and modified to fit the overall blade.

A couple of my first knives were remakes of another knife blade. Even though I had removed the handles and made my own handles and in some cases I even reground the blade's shape.

When all assembled it did not make these knives custom in the least. I learned about doing certain practices in the knife making process first hand. But never were these knives marketed as custom. In fact they were never marketed. I gave one to my son and one to my son in law.

Now days I still am doing a lot of reduction and I am tinkering with a little forging.

I do the entire blade from concept to completion and where my facilities allow this means heat treating also. I usually build all my own hardware for a knife such as bolster’s, guards and pommels. All steps are done in house and if I need to have anything done outside my shop it is fully disclosed on the letter I submit with each knife. I even do all of my own sheaths. To me this is the true meaning of a custom knife and sheath maker.

Now, it that to say that if you don’t do your own heat treatment or the sheath, you don’t make a custom. Not necessarily some makers are not good at making sheaths or just plain don’t like it. You may not have the ability to do a heat treatment due the type of metal or the length may become a factor

The afore mentioned fellow that is only handling a blade and calling it a custom has entered into that dark side of the gray area. My true feelings are that he is not much more than a glorified assembler!
 
So if someone else chooses to call themself a knifemaker because they put handles on factory made blades, it has absolutely no bearing on what I do or how I view myself. I can't really understand how it has any bearing on what anyone else does or how they view themselves either.
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It may not have any direct bearing on how an individual maker views themselves, or what they do, but it can have a profound impact on how the customer/client base views Makers in general. All you have to do is read what I initially wrote to understand that.
Two things that are paramount in our industry are TRUST, and INTEGRITY. If any customer/potential customer feels it necessary to question either of those, then it damages every Maker out there, as well as our industry as a whole. As much as some would like to compare Knifemaking to any other business/industry, it's just not so. There are many unique facets to the "Custom/Handmade" knife industry, that simply do not exist or matter in other fields.
Do I sound tweaked? That's because I am. ANYTHING that diminishes the trust or integrity of this industry has a direct impact on me, and I will defend it jealously. It has taken me 25 years to establish and maintain a good reputation as a Knifemaker, and those who choose to exploit the development of those factors (as is the case when any maker chooses not to be honest and up front about their product(s) is a direct affront to what I have worked so hard to achieve.

Some who are "newer" makers may not understand or may dispute that, but I say to those individuals....once you have been involved with this industry for several years, it will become clear.

Stacy:
After reading your last post about the individual being a "dealer" and selling in the knifemaker area, it seems pretty obvious to me that he/she is simply trying to "play" the system. Were I in your shoes I would either demand the individual purchase a Dealer Membership, or hit the road.
 
Are you *making* a knife or assembling a knife out of a manufactured part and some miscellaneous hardware? If you did not make the part that defines it as a knife, you did not make the knife. You assembled it, perhaps with a handle of your construction. If I put a new seat on my Harley I did not build it, that was done by a very talented group of folks in Milwaukee. On the other hand I cannot claim to have built my Duster, as I have started with a gutted shell and have built the engine from components, made parts from scratch for the body, frame, fuel system, and suspension, did my own bodywork and paint. I have had significant input into all of the defining characteristics, but it is still a Plymouth just a heavily modified one
There should be a forum for assemblers (cutlers in pre industrial parlance) but selling premade blades with your handles on them as your handmade work is fraud, pure and simple.

-Page
 
Be confident of who you are and nobody can undermine your credibility. Be confident in what you do and nobody can make it less meaningful to you.
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- Greg[/QUOTE]

It is the customer we are concerned for . The one who is looking to buy a handmade knife , only to find out that it was not . As Ed has stated , it puts questionable thoughts in the buyers mind about all of us .
 
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Excellent point:thumbup:

ONeill said:
- Greg
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It is the customer we are concerned for . The one who is looking to buy a handmade knife , only to find out that it was not . As Ed has stated , it puts questionable thoughts in the buyers mind about all of us .[/QUOTE]
 
Bladeforums common usage of the term Knifemaker, would pretty much demand that that the term be used to describe at minimum the ability to forge and maybe treat a blade reliably. The majority of the knifemakers here would seem to be forging their blades in their own shop, so to try and ride their coattails with kit knives is not classy.
 
There are a number of stock removal makers on Bladeforums. They don't forge but do make the knife starting with a plain bar of steel. So did people like Bob Loveless...
 
people may not like what that fella is doing.. but jeez, is there much you can do to stop it..?

- i didn't like it when cnc milling was used to make knives.. or cut out piles of blanks with a laser,water, shears

personally my idea of custom, means that you oversee every wiggly detail of making a knife... but that is just my perception

it'll be the market that decides what stays and goes ... ( i think )
 
I didn't count responses but it looks like the majority of us agree, full disclosure is the only way to go. Whether the folks who make and enforce the rules have time to deal with the issue, I have no idea.

My gut feeling is that whoever this thread is about is a greedy scumbag trying to undercut actual makers, but I can't say for sure. It's true that quality will show its true colors over time if not sooner, but like others said, what about the new buyer who gets screwed? That burns me up.

I realize there can be a grey area. I ocassionally have a batch of the same profile cut by waterjet. I don't do my own HT but I do research and choose professionals who can do it right, and I test their work. In either case I'm totally up front about who did what. That's only fair!

I'm also working on a collaboration with a fellow who's never ground a blade but makes really nice handles and sheaths and has a great design. He just wants me to grind the blades for him. Difference is, he has sense and a consciense (sp?) and if the project goes forward, he'll sell the knives with full disclosure.
 
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