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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is available! Price is $250 ea (shipped within CONUS).
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Just Want Your opinions
- Thread starter Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith
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Gotcha :thumbup:
Jack O'Neill
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NickWheeler [QUOTE said:
You are right Nick , I did miss read and miss quote
My apology to the person and all that read my mistake .
In other areas what is considered custom does not mean sole authorship. Custom guns, fishing rods, cars, motorcycles, guitars etc...
They contain alot of high end factory made components, but "custom" 1911 pistols, rifles built around a 98 Mauser actions etc, can be works of art; although builders of such things do not attempt to say they built these things from raw billets of steel themselves but they certantly are custom.
They contain alot of high end factory made components, but "custom" 1911 pistols, rifles built around a 98 Mauser actions etc, can be works of art; although builders of such things do not attempt to say they built these things from raw billets of steel themselves but they certantly are custom.
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To give a slightly different perspective:
I like making blades much, much more than I like putting them into complete knives. So, I periodically sell blades by themselves. I don't always stamp them, because I don't want people to later think I made the whole knife.
On the other hand, it would be a serious disservice to me if someone buys one of my blades or "kits" and does not tell people later that I made the blade and they designed and made everything else.
Of course, what I make is different than factory blades or kits, but it is my favorite product and I wouldn't want to lose exposure to potential customers because someone wanted to take credit for sole creation of the work.
I would never have a knife blade of mine fitted by someone else and then just say "I made this knife."
It's not ethical.
kc
I like making blades much, much more than I like putting them into complete knives. So, I periodically sell blades by themselves. I don't always stamp them, because I don't want people to later think I made the whole knife.
On the other hand, it would be a serious disservice to me if someone buys one of my blades or "kits" and does not tell people later that I made the blade and they designed and made everything else.
Of course, what I make is different than factory blades or kits, but it is my favorite product and I wouldn't want to lose exposure to potential customers because someone wanted to take credit for sole creation of the work.
I would never have a knife blade of mine fitted by someone else and then just say "I made this knife."
It's not ethical.
kc
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the issue with the application of the word "Custom" is that for 20 plus years the magazines have labeled or allowed the labeling of any handmade knife "custom" a misuse which is promulgated on this and just about all of the other knife forums. For something to truly be custom, it has to be a one-off produced or modified to the tastes and specifications provided by the customer who is ordering it. Any piece I make without prior interaction with a customer is by definition not a custom piece even though it is made in my shop by my hands starting with either bar(s) of steel, or in a few cases, iron ore and homemade charcoal and wood.
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I just figured out which knife was being discussed and I have to call BS! After reading the description I would have thought the guy either forged or used stock removal to make the blade, if I had purchased the knife I would have felt cheated.
I like the guy's style too, what a shame...
I make stock removal knives from scratch and put stone handles and filework on Buck 110's and such; I say I made the ones I started with a steel bar for and the Bucks I customized! Not too hard to figure that one out!
I like the guy's style too, what a shame...
I make stock removal knives from scratch and put stone handles and filework on Buck 110's and such; I say I made the ones I started with a steel bar for and the Bucks I customized! Not too hard to figure that one out!
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Great statement right here:thumbup: THESE knives I MADE......and THESE ones over here, I CUSTOMIZED. Seems simple enough.
Hengelo_77
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I would say that it is a custom knife and a colloboration between Bon Engnath and you.
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Doug,
Simply state what you have already said. It is a Bob Engnath blade handled and finished by you. Just the fact it is an Engnath blade makes it much more valuable anyway.
Simply state what you have already said. It is a Bob Engnath blade handled and finished by you. Just the fact it is an Engnath blade makes it much more valuable anyway.
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Thanks. I can't bear to part with them now anyway. I keep them as inspirational patterns. -Doug
I am late to this topic, but, after some thought on this I would like to add my 2 cents. I started out in this buissness putting handles on Jantz and TKS blades in 02, and sold alot of them, with full disclosure of exactly what they were, factory blades that I put handles on, every one who bought one knew that up front. I learned alot about fit and finish while doing those blades for a year or so. So I think with full disclosure all is fine, but if I were to put my name on one, that would have been dishonest in my opinion.
Wheather or not doing kit knives is knifemaking, I don't know, but you could say that a person that has his blanks waterjet cut, and sends them out for heat treat is not a knifemaker, after all, he or she is just grinding the bevel and putting on a handle, and some would say that the heat treat is the most important part of a blade. Another thought. I just noticed a few weeks ago, that a major supplier is offering blade blanks from D2, CPM S30V and other steels, that are drilled, and heat treated, but have no bevels ground on them. If a new guy was to buy those, and grind the bevels on them,(I can't imagine fully grinding bevels on 5/32" thick S30V after heat treat,) and finish them with handles and a sheath, would you call him a knifemaker?
I just wanted to add a different perspective on the subject of who is or who is not to be called a knifemaker, I too am hesitant to call someone who does kit knives a knifemaker, but we should be carefull when putting labels on people based on doing the same thing with a different process than our own. As long as they are upfront about what they are selling, I think all is fine, but when they pass them off as fully handmade knives, then we all come under suspicion from the buyers, and that hurts us all.
Sorry for the rant, Just my 2 cents
Dale
Wheather or not doing kit knives is knifemaking, I don't know, but you could say that a person that has his blanks waterjet cut, and sends them out for heat treat is not a knifemaker, after all, he or she is just grinding the bevel and putting on a handle, and some would say that the heat treat is the most important part of a blade. Another thought. I just noticed a few weeks ago, that a major supplier is offering blade blanks from D2, CPM S30V and other steels, that are drilled, and heat treated, but have no bevels ground on them. If a new guy was to buy those, and grind the bevels on them,(I can't imagine fully grinding bevels on 5/32" thick S30V after heat treat,) and finish them with handles and a sheath, would you call him a knifemaker?
I just wanted to add a different perspective on the subject of who is or who is not to be called a knifemaker, I too am hesitant to call someone who does kit knives a knifemaker, but we should be carefull when putting labels on people based on doing the same thing with a different process than our own. As long as they are upfront about what they are selling, I think all is fine, but when they pass them off as fully handmade knives, then we all come under suspicion from the buyers, and that hurts us all.
Sorry for the rant, Just my 2 cents
Dale
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Curious what the legal stand is. I ask because I make sell a lot of things besides knives, and in the jewelry trade- legally one has to only alter something by 10% to call it yours. Thus it is legal to import a necklace unstring it, change a few beads, put the clasp back on and call it 100% yours. I do not like it, but thats how it is. I note that such people are followers, not leaders, are not particularly talented. As such, in the big picture are not a huge competition for those who offer better.
Where would we make the line? If I sell you a set of mammoth tooth scales that have been stabilized and predrilled ready to use and you put them on your blade is it 100% your knife? I might claim you are not talented enough nor have the equipment to cut and stabilize mammoth teeth and as such have no right to claim it is yours. If I trade for a Damascus blade, and the maker does not have his name on it and sold it to me to use in my knife and I do so, is it is my finished knife? At what point is it a kit? If we buy spacers guards pommels and sheaths- is the total product ours? I would personally lean in the direction of being open minded and tolerant. Many of us started out learning from kits. I proudly called them my knife (back 30 years ago) . I had no malicious intent. I could not get a lot of money for them. A comment might be Is this a kit? Or How did you make the blade? Tell me about the blade It would then at that point be improper to make up a false story. As with any false story.
Where would we make the line? If I sell you a set of mammoth tooth scales that have been stabilized and predrilled ready to use and you put them on your blade is it 100% your knife? I might claim you are not talented enough nor have the equipment to cut and stabilize mammoth teeth and as such have no right to claim it is yours. If I trade for a Damascus blade, and the maker does not have his name on it and sold it to me to use in my knife and I do so, is it is my finished knife? At what point is it a kit? If we buy spacers guards pommels and sheaths- is the total product ours? I would personally lean in the direction of being open minded and tolerant. Many of us started out learning from kits. I proudly called them my knife (back 30 years ago) . I had no malicious intent. I could not get a lot of money for them. A comment might be Is this a kit? Or How did you make the blade? Tell me about the blade It would then at that point be improper to make up a false story. As with any false story.
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on the OP if he marketed them as semi-custom and had some input into the blades finish he would do himself a better service...I was looking at doing this as I dont have the shop setup to make knives at this point in time but putting my own finish to a bought blade and making my own handles/guards, list them up with the steel and original maker of the blade.
This IMO would be ok in the knife maker section, there are plenty of accomplished makers out there using others blades who state the blades are not there own. If you get to hung up on some semantics you could say knife makers that have their blades heat treated out of shop are not knife makers, or how about the many smiths that buy in billets of damascus?
This IMO would be ok in the knife maker section, there are plenty of accomplished makers out there using others blades who state the blades are not there own. If you get to hung up on some semantics you could say knife makers that have their blades heat treated out of shop are not knife makers, or how about the many smiths that buy in billets of damascus?
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith
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Thanks folks, for all the input on this.
I do want to clear up a few things:
I think the semantics of the word "Knifemaker" are why there are so many varying opinions in this thread. I should have used the word "maker". The sales area is called the "Knifemaker's Market" and is for individual makers to sell their knives in. I wasn't really so much trying to define knifemaker as I was pointing out that he is a dealer, not a maker, and the knives he makes himself are suspicious as to origin.
I think a lot of the posts here are using the term "knifemaker" in reference to what is more properly called, "Sole Authorship". In a sole author, the maker makes the blade ( forges/grinds/etc.), does the HT, and does all the finishing and decorative work. If he farms out waterjet cutting, HT, or engraving, he is still the knifemaker, but not the sole author. Folks who say you have to smelt the steel, grow your own trees, and machine your own Corby bolts to be a sole author are just being silly.
The term custom used to just mean "regular or repeat business", thus the word "customer". Then it became a business dealing that catered to a specific clients requests, thus "custom clothier". Later it also became a term applying to "customized" or modified products, thus " Joe's Custom Vans". This use of the term started to be applied to any product embellished or modified to make it more attractive to a buyer, thus, "Custom Buck 110".
Finishing a kit knife or handling a purchased finished blade is a form of customizing.....and while it is a gray area, there is really no problem with calling yourself a knifemaker if you are the maker of the custom piece.....but the product should be stated as what it is ( "customized DDR BL3") and sold in the area that applies to your business status. If you are an individual who makes knives and sells a few, the Knifemaker's market is the right place. If you are an importer who mainly sells blades and knives by others, and every one of the 300+ posts you have made are in the For Sale area .....you are a dealer.
I'm going to close this thread now, as it has run its useful course. Thanks for the opinions.
I do want to clear up a few things:
I think the semantics of the word "Knifemaker" are why there are so many varying opinions in this thread. I should have used the word "maker". The sales area is called the "Knifemaker's Market" and is for individual makers to sell their knives in. I wasn't really so much trying to define knifemaker as I was pointing out that he is a dealer, not a maker, and the knives he makes himself are suspicious as to origin.
I think a lot of the posts here are using the term "knifemaker" in reference to what is more properly called, "Sole Authorship". In a sole author, the maker makes the blade ( forges/grinds/etc.), does the HT, and does all the finishing and decorative work. If he farms out waterjet cutting, HT, or engraving, he is still the knifemaker, but not the sole author. Folks who say you have to smelt the steel, grow your own trees, and machine your own Corby bolts to be a sole author are just being silly.
The term custom used to just mean "regular or repeat business", thus the word "customer". Then it became a business dealing that catered to a specific clients requests, thus "custom clothier". Later it also became a term applying to "customized" or modified products, thus " Joe's Custom Vans". This use of the term started to be applied to any product embellished or modified to make it more attractive to a buyer, thus, "Custom Buck 110".
Finishing a kit knife or handling a purchased finished blade is a form of customizing.....and while it is a gray area, there is really no problem with calling yourself a knifemaker if you are the maker of the custom piece.....but the product should be stated as what it is ( "customized DDR BL3") and sold in the area that applies to your business status. If you are an individual who makes knives and sells a few, the Knifemaker's market is the right place. If you are an importer who mainly sells blades and knives by others, and every one of the 300+ posts you have made are in the For Sale area .....you are a dealer.
I'm going to close this thread now, as it has run its useful course. Thanks for the opinions.
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